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My impression is that Hanifin could play in Charlotte but Fleury would have to stay in the OHL if not with the Canes?

 

That appears to be true.

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That would be my impression too Lake. I think Fleury can go AHL when he is 20. This rule just kills me. I can't imagine that Fleury will develop as well with yet another year of JR hockey vs. AHL.

 

If Fleury is ready that would be interesting and a bit surprising. He did not have a great statistical year in Jrs and didn't make the World Cup JR team. I have been assuming he would need another year, but have never seen him play...just really seems like another guy who would be best served at this point stepping up to the AHL, but not until he's 20 at this point.

 

Since Hanifin is not a junior hockey player (the agreement is between the NHL and Jr hockey) he could technically play in the AHL, but so few players, especially college players seem to want to make that jump after the Freshman year.

 

I just wonder, as both of these guys are on the young side of their draft class, and defenseman take longer what the best thing would be for their development?

Edited by remkin

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There's a TSN article about whether 19yo Leafs prospect William Nylander will join the big club next season.  Most of the principles discussed are just as relevant to Fleury and Hanifin imo.  We've been talking mostly about on ice readiness, but we haven't really looked at the contractual side of things, which could prove important to a team several years down the line.  Here are some excerpts: 

http://www.tsn.ca/talent/nylander-ready-to-test-maple-leafs-patience-1.329010

 

"I just said to him, when he takes a job he'll have a job," said Babcock, relaying the conversation. "The jobs aren't given to anybody; you've got to take one."

 

Patience (especially with prospects and player development) is being preached from the highest levels of the Leaf organization. That pledge will surely be tested on the eighth-overall pick of the 2014 draft. Nylander might just be ready to play in the NHL at some point this season, but is that choice the right one for his long-term development? What about for the organization in a salary-cap world?

 

Nylander hopes he'll get the chance to play as a Maple Leaf this season, but he can't say at this point if he's ready. His AHL experience, while successful, was also brief, lasting from late January until early May.  "The step from junior to pro is pretty big, but the step from the AHL to the NHL is pretty big too," Nylander said of his readiness. "It's hard to say. I can maybe give you that answer if I make the NHL one day. Right now it's hard when you're just trying to work every day to reach that goal."

 

Still, there's a real argument to be made that, regardless of his performance at training camp in the fall, the Leafs would be best served keeping Nylander with the Marlies – now under the eye of new head coach Sheldon Keefe – for the bulk of a full season. Babcock's former team in Detroit is a shining example of player development in the NHL over the past two decades. The Red Wings are rigid in their approach, patiently waiting until their prospects are more than ready before they take the final step into the NHL.  An emerging star in Motown, Tomas Tatar spent 265 games in the AHL. Gustav Nyquist, also on the rise, spent 137 games in Grand Rapids before joining the big club.

 

"There's lots of lessons," Babcock said of the Wings model, pointing to the effectiveness of long-time general manager Ken Holland, the club's scouts and ownership, "But I don't have all day [to explain]."  The downside of extra seasoning in the AHL is practically non-existent. Nylander would only be further prepared to play as a Leaf after another campaign as a Marlie, more ready to make an impact upon entry into the NHL.

 

"We're not going to bring them up unless they're absolutely ready to stay up all the time," Leafs assistant general manager Kyle Dubas said of the team's prospects. "We want them to be 100 per cent ready to play for the Maple Leafs."

Toronto has a history of pushing prospects along too quickly and failing to implement an effective system of development.

The Leafs had defenceman Morgan Rielly playing in the NHL at the age of 19, just a few years after an 18-year-old Luke Schenn was rushed into the lineup.

 

Not only is there risk in development by bringing a prospect along too soon, there's also an economic disadvantage to consider.  Rielly, for example, will be up for his second contract next summer. The Leafs will be forced to pay a younger, less finished version of the defenceman one year earlier than they had to. He'll be eligible for unrestricted agency at the age of 26.

Effective players on entry-level contracts are extremely valuable under the cap. The upside to having Rielly – despite his flashes of success in two seasons – on an NHL team not close to contending was minimal and forced an earlier payday.

 

They've talked repeatedly about doing what was right for the big picture, avoiding shortcuts. "We want our players to carry on a steady route and to be ready to come to the Maple Leafs when they're absolutely ready to do so," Dubas said. "And that might draw the ire of fans and media and even the players themselves when they think that they're ready, but we're going to stick with it and we're not going to waver from it."

______________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------

note: all bolding is mine, not from the article.  As a reminder, prospects can play nine games before a year of his entry-level deal is burned.

Edited by LakeLivin

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Lake, good points on the economic aspect of additional seasoning in the AHL.  I have long thought that the Canes "waste" years of players' entry level deals by rushing them.  The problem is that the system has been so devoid of talent that any player with a shot of sticking is immediately thrust into the NHL.  Rask, Lindholm, and Murphy will all be off their entry level deals. 

 

In my opinion, making the commitment to AHL seasoning is like a college football coach making the commitment to red shirting his freshmen.  It's going to hurt at first, but there is a long term benefit.  Very few have the patience to do this in a world where coaches and GM's (or athletic directors) are changed like yesterday's dirty undies.

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Regarding the contractual side of things, the other big factor imo is where the organization is in terms of competitiveness. Seems like it's basically a cost/ benefit equation. Whether the "benefit" of starting a prospect earlier outweighs the "cost"  might well be dependent on how close a team is to a competitive threshold.  In other words, if you've got a borderline playoff team, borderline cup contender, etc., and there's a good chance the prospect might push it to the next level, losing that year on the contract might be worth it.  Unfortunately, I don't see us as being in such a position.   :(

Edited by LakeLivin

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Lake and Dave, Agree completely with your points, and would just like to add that I believe the sentiment which expresses best the angst most fans as well as teams feel in the push to bring players up to the "Bigs" too soon is "Instant Gratification". We, as a people, are no longer content to be patient with our affairs, but have to have "it" yesterday. Isn't that the reason that all "are changed like yesterday"s dirty undies"?

 

And, oh BTW, I'm just as guilty as anyone, as I WANT US IN THE PLAYOFFS THIS YEAR!!

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Kjun; I want us in the playoffs as well, and I don't think it's completely outside the realm of possibility if some of our big names have bounce back years.  I do think we need more horses, but instead of rushing our prospects I'd like to see us pick up another couple of pieces from outside on short term deals.  With Semin gone we're under $60m in salaries.   In another thread we've talked about possible RW UFAs we might pursue like Boyes or Stempniak. I've got to believe there are similar inexpensive d-men available who, while not long term solutions, could at least hold down the fort as 2nd or 3rd pairings for a year or so while we give our yutes a bit of time to percolate.  Who knows, maybe GMRF is looking into different options even as we speak? I hope that's the case rather than being content with our current group after mostly "small ball" moves so far this offseason.      

Edited by LakeLivin

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Good discussion. Say guys like Fleury and Hanifin could get by in the NHL this year. Fine, but they are going to be very young rookies in the most difficult position to learn. They may manage to look OK, but they will in no way be ready to "lead" us to the playoffs. That is just not happening. The term "rookie mistakes" is not just a cliche.

 

So if the playoffs are not likely this year, the actual contributions of those players is almost a non issue.

 

My question, and I don't know the answer, is this: in general, with a very talented very young player, where do they develope best?

 

It is hard to see Fleury taking huge leaps w/ another year against kids in Jrs. I would think Hanifin might get a bit more out of another year at the highest collegate levels, but would benefit more in the AHL, where few guys with options want to play at that stage (sophomore year). Learing the game at the highest level has upside, but it can also kill a guy's confidence, and I think it slows their offensive developent as they are more hesitant to try things and shoot the puck.

 

I know that I have read on these boards over and over and over not to rush guys and that the best organizations don't rush guys. Now we want to....rush guys?

 

I would love to find an article about it, but alas I am late for work.

Edited by remkin

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I would love to find an article about it, but alas I am late for work.

 

You work?   :coollaugh:

 

Just pullin' your leg, Rem.

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Yea that ones not as cool in my opinion Cam or Lack would have poke checked the living crap out of it. It's like the goalie was just screwing around.

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Big difference in speed between the two.  Tolchinsky's was at full speed and it looked like a "natural" move to me. Fleury's looked like someone trying a trick shot in practice.  I could almost imagine a coach blowing the whistle on Fleury and telling him to stop screwing around.  Tolchinsky's didn't have that feel to me . . .

 

As far as our goalie prospects, my impression is that Ned is far and away our #1.  Too bad he couldn't be at camp.

Edited by LakeLivin

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So Noah Hanafin just signed. Very cool did it in front of us at practice today. So it's either Charlotte or Raleigh for him.

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Hanifin will probably play with us in the NHL. Easily slots in above our D like Jordan, Rissanen, Liles, Murphy. If he starts in Charlotte I expect him to get a call up and never get sent back like Faulk did.

 

Also, Aho really impressed me. I had my eye on him (usually when you produce a lot at each and every level of the Swedish Hockey leagues and then move to a smaller rink the acclimation isn't very hard) I saw that with Aho today and I feel like he deserves an invite to the big camp, and I believe he has every chance to make the team at a 35th overall pick, reminds me of O'Rielly being NHL ready coming from the second round.

Edited by SuckaPunchd

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Waiting for a report on scrimmage game. Guess the next step for Hanifin is Traverse City tournament? So ecstatic he signed, will order a jersey today. Think he retains #5?

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Very nice event.

 

Full disclosure, was there with family and scouting seats a bit, so was not paying super close attention.

 

The interview w/ Waddell first:  Waddel bought a house, so for crying out loud this team is not moving anywhere period. PNC will have in house Wi Fi. Also lots of other smaller upgrades. Adding another bar to the club level. Fiirst year in a long time season ticket sales trending up from previous year (he says as white "I'm available" papers tacked to over half of the seats. But still). Chuck backed him that we have one of the nicest houses in the NHL.

 

Francis/Peters: Really not sure they said much. The prospects seem bigger and we are very excited about our new d prospects. Francis said he is always calling and taking calls about trades, but had no problem going through most of camp with slots open and making moves after camp. Acountability. A hot dog is not a sandwich. To be honest, outside of the are any more moves coming question, the burning questions were not really asked. There was no chance for open questions. Too bad. Generalities and close to the vest led to a less intersting segment than it could have been.

 

Oveheard Chuck saying something to a fan about Semin and maybe he and Khudobin were doing something to the room? I don't know, but it is interesting that both Russians are gone.

 

Hanifin signs in front of the crowd. Neat moment. Never saw that before. I have a video of it, but it's already on the main page of this website.

 

The Scrimmage.

 

First, they played 4 on 4, then 3 on 3, then shootout, so it was not traditional hockey. The 3 on 3 is going to be lights out wild. It is hard to imagine many games making it to shootout this year. Tons of odd man rushes and open ice creates intersting dynamics and unique opportunities for crafty players. I think teams that figure out how to maximize this first will get a few extra points in the standings this year.

 

As to players. One guy had the stick-handle-in-a-phone-booth, stands-out-above-everyone-else, sick skills. The Kidsky, The Smurf, The Kid Brother: Tolchinsky. If he can mangage to physically keep his head from being knocked off his shoulders, he will be fun to watch. He can create something out of nothing. He can keep the puck away from two guys trying to get it along the boards with tricky moves. If, and here I am not capitulating to the no chance idea, but if we are going to lose, at least watching him dazzle would be fun.

 

But really, oddly, (since I most wanted to see Fleury and Hanifin) I was most impressed w/ our forwards in general. But before I get there. Hanifin and Fleury. Both skate well. Hanifin seems more positionally sound. Both are big boys. But both had some questionable decision making. I remember a couple of times where each gave or almost gave the puck away, and I thought, "in an NHL game, that would have gone the other way and in the net."

 

I feel we need to see a much much bigger sample size, and see them in NHL camp vs prospect camp. They are both going to be very good IMHO, and the size and skating is there.  just could not say after today: "Oh yes, obviously NHL ready" for either of them.

 

 

AHO: flashed skill several times and good compete. Also a couple of questionable plays, but this is one outing. Skill seems to be there.

 

Foegele seemed to posses the puck slickly. Hofmann made a couple of nice plays. Brian Ward looked good a couple of times, and on defense I did notice Slavin a coulple of times in a good way, but since I was distracted by other things today, I was really paying attention at the Tolchinsky level at this one: the half watching when "what the? Did Tolchinsky just do that?" level. Like Skinner when he is on his game, Tolchinksy is a guy that if you're friend isn't paying close attention and Tolchinksy gets the puck in the offensive zone, you elbow your friend to watch because something special might happen. Skill on top of skill all done quick.

 

The goalies made a few nice saves, but nothing noteworthy. I was hoping to see something more from Altshuller, since he is the most hyped of the group out there, but not really. Then again, not a goalie friendly event really. Too bad Nedeljkovic not there. Glad we got Eddie Lack though.

 

In the long run our two big picks on the back end will be the key, and the Fleury signing is key,  but at a scrimmage event like this? Tolchinksy.

Edited by remkin

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Coastal,

In your honest opinion, is Han ready to make the jump to the NHL?

 

Hanifin just signed his ELC.  Terms are 832,500K at the NHL level, and ....................70K at the AHL level.

 

The bolded should answer your question as to what the Canes think.

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Nice read Remkin! Couldn't go today...so nice insight from you...Thanks!

 

I don't think I've been this excited about the Canes future in like forever!

 

In 4 years our top 4 D could be stellar, still young, & the core the Canes need to making several playoff runs.

Edited by rocheccw

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Thanks for the "wordy" insight, rem(haha  just kidding). Actually, my peers will be the 1st to tell you that I am the best in that category, and forget asking me to give a lecture!! On a serious note, seems like there's life coming back into PNC after 6 years of dormancy?

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