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The great E Staal Has Been Traded Thread

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One thing to keep in mind is every day E plays in this contract year his salary diminishes. By trade deadline it will be a lot easier for a team to pick it up. It is true E has the trump card with the NTC but if he were traded to a cup contender and you expect he would be, E might find a playoff run attractive.

 

It would become dicey if we are a bubble team at trade deadline. That is when RF would need to decide if an unsigned E was more important for a chance at the playoffs than a chance E would walk after the season.

 

I'm not advocating an E trade but I am aware it is possible. If it were to happen it might not be as difficult as many here seem to think. Of course if E and RF come to an agreement the trade talk is mute.

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I am a 10+ year ticket holder so let me say this is said only with thought.

 

I am amazed that people are letting how they "feel" about E. Staal as a person cloud their judgement.

 

Eric Staal is a "+" 3 times in his entire NHL carreer and "-" 8 times.  Let that sink in a moment, and keep in mind he was put out on home ice vs the other teams 2nd offensive line with Maurice, Kirk and often Lav. 

 

Under no circumstance is he worth 8 million to any team including ours.  His pay scale places him as one of the highest paid in the entire league and he has enjoyed that for years.  Currently I doubt he would even make the Canadian Olympic squad.  If he did he may make 4th line.  He has put up some good stats, but he probably would not make the first line with any top 15 team in the NHL.  He is good yes.  Hall of Fame no - despite the fact that is where he was and is paid.  He loafs up the ice defensively often, takes poor penalties, and is best as a junk goal scorer parked in front of a net he no longer will park in front of.  No one on his line (save one year with Semin) has he made better as a center distributing the puck. 

 

I appreciate his work for which he was over paid dearly, but hes hardly the best player even on our team and has not been often. He needs to leave even if we get nothing in return.  5+ million (which I assume he will think he is worth) is better spent on any other or two other players which will play both sides of the ice, can pass, and make their linemates better which he has almost never done.

 

Remember he scored 100 points one time.  That was as our teams 2nd line center when teams did not focus on him and we had about 6 - 20 goal scorers.  He has otherwise proven he was a good 70 or so point player for about 5 years which places him about 20-25th in the league, more recently he has posted averages in the upper 50's with lots of his goals coming when the game was over and in a losing effort. 

 

With average defense, finally 50/50 on face offs, less than average puck distrubition he just finished 73rd in points last year, and 60th in goals.  40th in points the prior year, and 81st in goals the prior year which he and Jussi Jokenin had almost the exact same goals and points only Jussi was plus 12, had a better FO% and did it with 50 less shots.

 

This sounds harsh to some I know, but its a reality check.  We need to wish him well be happy for him and move someone else in.

It is easy to make him look like the most overpaid and over rated player on paper cause he has been the last two years.  It's also easy to make him look like a hall of famer on paper.  Stanley cup, world champ, Olympic champ, allstar mvp, most points of any player from his draft year(which was a good one), on pace for 90 points during lockout year, production dropped a bit post lockout from injuries yet healthy now.   Of course nothing really matters except what he does here in Oct. Nov, December.  

 

Also, to get rid of him for nothing but cap space, it seems nice to have that much $ to spend but lets not forget,  nobody really wants to come to the non playoff southern team that has rumors of moving right now(just rumors others may believe though we know better), so we may just be stuck trying to fill out the roster with Ahl'ers or has beens or 3rd liners with no real number one center.  or we might just have to over pay someone to convince them to come hear and not Winnipeg, Nashvile etc.... which is the same problem we have now.  Sounds great to get two 50 point scorers with the money we save getting rid of  him but are those players out there and would they want to come here?   It would be a gamble but I guess keeping him right now is a gamble too.  We'll find out shortly!. 

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Remkin, your normally a reasonable poster.  Not saying your not here but I would say your seeing it a bit "rosey."  I wont go so far as to say you've moved back to an island but I will say this:

 

Someone still must pick up an overpaid player for us to get 'return' AND the player must approve the trade due to the NTC.  That's a lot that has to occur given a midyear move is still almost $4 mill for another team to pickup and he must approve it.  In fact I would say to lose him for nothing is a return unto itself because at least we pickup the money. 

 

I would say given the stats, if you lose all of his salary, can you pick up a player for 70th in points / 60th in goals for $8mill?  Of course.  The question you need to ask yourself reasonably is could you spend $4 mill on two players each and get more than 70th in points and 60th in goals combined better defense etc...?  If Staal were to re-sign for about $4 mill for 3 years I could tolerate it.  More than that another team needs to pay.  We are not deep enough for an Erik Cole salary of high pay, flash and little team help as the Oilers and Stars Habs ... discovered.  I think BP is smart.  He's looking for CoryStillman Justin Williams Aaron Ward type of players which aren't easy to find but hard to get when you have a few people eating all your salary.

 

I absolutely can get a bit rosey (not LaRose btw). A couple of rebuttals though. Getting UFA's to come here is harder than just having the cap space. It is not so easy to replace a top player just because you have room to pay unless you affect a trade.

 

Also, I would argue that thinking Staal will do $4 mil for 3 years is probably not realistic. He'll go UFA before doing that.

 

That said, E has not lived up to his contract to this point, and particularly the last two years. I agree that it will be tough to trade him w/ the full year at his rate right now. If he comes out strong but the team still struggles, that would be the best trade scenario. And as OBXer points out, as the year rolls on, we will have paid more and more of the hit. Also, we can retain some salary if we get the right parts back.

 

I still think E on a fair deal w/ no NTC, is the best outcome given our needs.

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A bit strong. Leaves people thinking :"did he just call me breathtakingly oblivious?" Anyway, I like the rest of the post, though not fully onboard with all of it, I am with most of it and the general points of it.

I regret if I left anyone wondering. So let me be clear:

 

Yes, I believe anybody who has watched Eric for the past 10 years and still believes he deserves little or no accountability for his poor performance - and who makes those feelings clear by suggesting he deserves anything more than the kind of "put up or shut up" approach RF is taking, is breathtakingly oblivious to the bandit-like getaway E and his millions have made every April (up until this last one) with near-total impunity.

 

The org has upheld its end of the bargain under E's deal. Calling E out for not reciprocating is fair, necessary, and long overdue. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Oh, and Rem, I'm as tired of the "he's as close to a #1 center as we have" argument as you apparently are with my saying he's a winger. $9.5 million is not "close as you can get to" #1-center pay in this league. It's equal to and in many cases way above that of many LEGIT #1's in the league.

 

Plus, IMO, even though Jordan is ideally a #2, he's still a better #1 than Eric ever was.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I regret if I left anyone wondering. So let me be clear:

 

Yes, I believe anybody who has watched Eric for the past 10 years and still believes he deserves little or no accountability for his poor performance - and who makes those feelings clear by suggesting he deserves anything more than the kind of "put up or shut up" approach RF is taking, is breathtakingly oblivious to the bandit-like getaway E and his millions have made every April (up until this last one) with near-total impunity.

 

The org has upheld its end of the bargain under E's deal. Calling E out for not reciprocating is fair, necessary, and long overdue. 

 

Well this begs two quesitons:

 

1. Who is saying that he deserves no accountiblity?

 

2. What does accountiblity look like? What do you mean by that?

 

Put up or shut up? So if he comes out and has a strong couple of months and gets a new deal, that's accountability? If he doesn't, then we trade him? Wait, we can't trade him if he doesn't want us to. We ask him to let us trade him, please. He goes to what team he wants, or not, and then hits the open market. Give me that accoutability.

 

To me the best we can do on accountablity means you show us you can still play and take a reasonable adjustment in pay, show that  will do what's asked fo you and  give up the NTC so if we feel at some future point that you are no longer doing those things we can trade you. Then at least we can hold him accountable in the future.

 

This is why and I know not everyone agrees, but this is why I don't like NTC's. The way to truly hold him accountable is to have the ability to trade him against his will. Otherwise, we really can't hold him accountable. Not really.

Edited by remkin

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Oh, and Rem, I'm as tired of the "he's as close to a #1 center as we have" argument as you apparently are with my saying he's a winger. $9.5 million is not "close as you can get to" #1-center pay in this league. It's equal to and in many cases way above that of many LEGIT #1's in the league.

 

Plus, IMO, even though Jordan is ideally a #2, he's still a better #1 than Eric ever was.

 

Thing is he is as close to a #1 center as we have. This does not mean though that he wouldn't be as good or better as a winger. Just that we don't have a better center.

 

If he walks are we a better team?

 

Again, I do not think he earned his last contract and in no way would I pay him anywhere near that again, and personally, if he won't waive the NTC I probably try to move him, (exaclty so we can hold him accountable in the future by trading him) but we are only going to be a better team w/ him gone if we get a good return including a high draft pick that turns into a #1 center.

Edited by remkin

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Thing is he is as close to a #1 center as we have. This does not mean though that he wouldn't be as good or better as a winger. Just that we don't have a better center.

 

If he walks are we a better team?

 

Again, I do not think he earned his last contract and in no way would I pay him anywhere near that again, and personally, if he won't waive the NTC I probably try to move him, (exaclty so we can hold him accountable in the future by trading him) but we are only going to be a better team w/ him gone if we get a good return including a high draft pick that turns into a #1 center.

In your opinion.

 

As I stated in my prior post, (1) he's making league-scale #1 center money and not performing as one, and (2) his brother, while ideally a #2 is (IMO) a better #1 than Eric ever was. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Well this begs two quesitons:

 

1. Who is saying that he deserves no accountiblity?

 

2. What does accountiblity look like? What do you mean by that?

 

Put up or shut up? So if he comes out and has a strong couple of months and gets a new deal, that's accountability? If he doesn't, then we trade him? Wait, we can't trade him if he doesn't want us to. We ask him to let us trade him, please. He goes to what team he wants, or not, and then hits the open market. Give me that accoutability.

 

To me the best we can do on accountablity means you show us you can still play and take a reasonable adjustment in pay, show that  will do what's asked fo you and  give up the NTC so if we feel at some future point that you are no longer doing those things we can trade you. Then at least we can hold him accountable in the future.

 

This is why and I know not everyone agrees, but this is why I don't like NTC's. The way to truly hold him accountable is to have the ability to trade him against his will. Otherwise, we really can't hold him accountable. Not really.

Again, you need to read the entirety of my prior post. We shouldn't extend Eric at all if we don't make the post-season this year, unless it's as a role-player at a ridiculously reduced price - but even that is difficult b/c at some point management must decide whether it may be better to end its association with what has been, for 10 years, the face of a losing franchise.

 

That, my friend, is accountability.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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In your opinion.

 

As I stated in my prior post, (1) he's making league-scale #1 center and not performeing as one, and (2) his brother, while ideally a #2 is (IMO) a better #1 than Eric ever was. 

 

You really think Jordan is a better #1 center? I'm trying to think of #1 centers who put up so few points as Jordan has here.

 

Jordan has put up 31 goals.....as a Hurricane, in three years, total.

 

Yes, he has been injured and one year was a lockout, but prorate it and assume he played all 82 games all three years. He would have put up 17 goals/year. Points? 40 points/year. Those are second-third line numbers, depending on the team. 

 

I know he is good defensively, but number one's create offense. That's part of what makes them #1s.

Edited by remkin

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Again, you need to read the entirety of my prior post. We shouldn't extend Eric at all if we don't make the post-season this year, unless it's as a role-player at a ridiculously reduced price - but even that is difficult b/c at some point management must decide that it may be better to end its association with what has been, for 10 years, the face of a losing franchise.

 

That, my friend, is accountability.

 

I guess. It really depends on how much Eric really wants to stay here and the definition of accountability. I guess I'm more hung up on accountablity in terms of a "punishment" for Eric or a stick to alter his play. That would be easier if he didn't have the NTC.

 

On the other hand, if you primarily mean sort of accountiblity in terms of the "culture" of the team, and showing others that we will only reward performance, yes, I'm with you on that.

 

There are pitfalls with letting it carry on to the end. Mainly that we don't get return. If we look like we're in the playoffs but don't extend him, then miss the playoffs...or if we let it get contentious, miss the playoffs then want to make a deal he doesn't like at the deadline and he blocks it w/ his NTC.

 

I like the idea of extending him at a small, reasonable deal soon, but w/ no NTC and an understanding that we will trade him if it doesn't work out, but in reality, he is probably not ready to sign that.

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In a hypothetical trade, couldn't we just retain salary? Isn't the limit 3 salary retentions  or am not understanding the CBA correctly?

3 is the limit, but if we did reatain part of Eric's salary ,it would only be till July.

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You really think Jordan is a better #1 center? I'm trying to think of #1 centers who put up so few points as Jordan has here.

 

[...]

 

I know he is good defensively, but number one's create offense. That's part of what makes them #1s.

I think it's apples to oranges in many ways, but yes, if I were forced to choose (and that bolded piece is the key, which I'll come back to in a minute) I'd rather have the elements Jordan brings at #1 than those Eric does. J's better at the dot, goes back on D and actually knows what he's doing in that end, can stake out turf in the slot and hold it, and makes the players around him better more consistently IMO. BUT...

 

It's a pointless comparison, a forced choice that shouldn't even be a consideration if Eric had performed over these past 10 years like his peers (in terms of compensation and leadership responsibility) around the league. It's also a choice that I think too many fans were conditioned to accept by JR, on the also-false "do they want to play here" argument. When an org and a player sign a deal that compensates the player on the expectation that he will do what his peers making similar money around the league are doing, that player already made the choice to play there--and would likely have signed in Siberia if the Siberia Freeze (or whatever) had made a better offer. JR (foolishly) gave Eric everything he wanted, and what we have to show for it is one post-season appearance and some bobbleheads.

 

Eric was paid to perform like a Sid or an Alex and instead has been a very pedestrian player who has occasionally shown flashes of brilliance. When I hear the phrase, "he brings it every night" Eric Staal is approximately the last guy I think of. The costs to the franchise, both fiscal and organizational, have not been anything close to what it has gotten in return.

 

So the questions which need to be answered over the next six months (AFAIC) are (1) can Eric actually be the guy who brings it every night, the guy we've been buying now, at 8 or 9 million a year for 10 years, or not? If not, the question is no longer whether Eric wants to stay, but why we'd want to keep him.  

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Hell, let's bring Jordan into this debate as well...

 

If we trade Eric, should RF ask Jordan if he's willing to be dealt too?  With the luster of his brother being here gone, I doubt he'll want to continue to play in Raleigh, so why not see what we can get for him (which, given how much JR paid just to get him, and his lack of production with us, should amount to a 3rd, a low prospect, and two bags of pucks).

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Hell, let's bring Jordan into this debate as well...

 

If we trade Eric, should RF ask Jordan if he's willing to be dealt too?  With the luster of his brother being here gone, I doubt he'll want to continue to play in Raleigh, so why not see what we can get for him (which, given how much JR paid just to get him, and his lack of production with us, should amount to a 3rd, a low prospect, and two bags of pucks).

Much as part of me wants to end the Staal era completely, the other part says J is a solid 2 center who we got at a pretty good price, who played just fine without his bro in Pitt.

 

I think that if the org is smart, it doesn't involve Jordan in E's future at all. J has an NTC, we're getting him at $6 million thru '20-21. Let him tell us if he wants out.

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the other part says J is a solid 2 center who we got at a pretty good price, who played just fine without his bro in Pitt.

He was lighting it up with Sid and Gino...hell, even Rosey could've lit it up with those two.

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He was lighting it up with Sid and Gino...hell, even Rosey could've lit it up with those two.

Good point, but as a 2 center, he's right where he should be. Why let Eric's status ruin the benefits for the Canes, (unless J wants out)?

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I thought that Jordan was a fully grown human, why do you think he is tied at the hip to Eric?

The trade for Jordan was sold to us by JR as a chance to both make more money for the jersey sales and to motivate both brothers by allowing them to play together.  Well, we've seen the results of that fiasco...

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The trade for Jordan was sold to us by JR as a chance to both make more money for the jersey sales and to motivate both brothers by allowing them to play together.  Well, we've seen the results of that fiasco...

 

 Well since Jordan controls his own future, if he get his panties in a bunch and wants out, let him go. But he may see the future of this team and wants to be part of it. It's not his fault JR is an idiot.

Edited by winger52

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The one thing that defines E Staal is the fact that it seems like they are always looking for people to make him better. A true first line center should make other players better. An average player playing with Crosby will probably get 50 points. I really can't remember E elevating anyone elses game. I think he is a fine individual, and he has been here so long I'd hate to see him go, but he is overpaid for what he is delivering.

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The one thing that defines E Staal is the fact that it seems like they are always looking for people to make him better. A true first line center should make other players better. An average player playing with Crosby will probably get 50 points. I really can't remember E elevating anyone elses game. I think he is a fine individual, and he has been here so long I'd hate to see him go, but he is overpaid for what he is delivering.

Thank you.

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I've read that E. Staal is requesting $9mil a year. If that's the case, I say "LET HIM GO!"

 

Why? We can get 2-3 players for that price and I predict both could match his production. He is older, slower, and I just don't see him with heart. I hope he goes and we get another captain...just not the other Staal!

 

IMHO!!

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I wonder where that rumor comes from, in a translated article it seems a bit suspect, but I would venture to guess that not one person on this board would advocate paying E anywhere near that number.

 

The other thing is where are we with our offer to him? Maybe we're offering $5 million. We end up in the middle at $7 ish.

 

Devils advocate: Staal and Semin made Tlusty look pretty good for a while there.

 

I don't know if we go w/ E. long term and I actually do agree that he is not the supreme talent that a Crosby generational talent is, but if you want to compare the net effect: Eric making marginal wingers better vs the team providing him with at least one elite winger. The team doesn't really fare any better.

 

The few times E has actually had a near elite winger he actually has made it go. (See Semin/Tlusty, see J Willy, Stillmann and Whitney and one Stanely Cup).

 

That said, no way is he worth anywhere near $9 mill/year. If he actually is on that number and won't move off, then it becomes trying to get him to approve a trade, ideally well before the deadline. But if he'd come in closer to $7 w/ no NTC? Sign him.

Edited by remkin

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