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The great E Staal Has Been Traded Thread

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Why is this so difficult?  There is a number somewhere between the league minimum and Sid money that is the correct value for Eric Staal.  I say 6.5M per but I am a fan, *edit* do I know.

 

The intangibles he brings are unknown to most (if not all) of us.  My fan impression is that he is a negative influence leadership-wise.  He looks like a lazy player all too often.  But I have no knowledge why this is so.  Hurt?  Unmotivated?  Lazy?  Unwilling?

 

Management/coaching say differently.  He's been hurt.  He's a great leader.  great guy in the room.  Hard to know if that is the company line for ticket sales, or the truth.  It could even be a way to placate and try to get the most out of a bad situation.

 

RF actually knows the truth.   Eric knows the truth.  I think the decision on if they part ways has already been made, by one side or the other or both.  We just don't get to know it, because the negotiation game is the negotiation game, both between player/mgmt and between teams.

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Why is this so difficult?

. . .

 

LakeLivin, on 16 Sept 2015 - 2:50 PM, said:snapback.png

The problem with pinning a number on what E Staal is worth at this point is that we don't know what E Staal IS at this point.  We know what he was before he blew out his knee (pretty damm good).  We know that his play declined significantly the 2 seasons after that, but we also know that part of the 2nd season he was playing with a broken foot.  I suspect part of the difficulty in current negotiations is that, going forward (and now presuambly 100% healthy), E sees himself as returning to close to pre-injury form. The Canes have to factor into account his past 2 sub par seasons and the possibility that they weren't due solely to the injuries but also indicate a general decline.

 

I suspect that we'll  need to see what E IS at this point before there's much chance of a contract agreement.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :D While you're right about mgmt actually having the insight into E's leadership status that we lack, I don't see how mgmt can't have questions about what Es production will likely be going forward given his past 2 seasons (including the injuries).  In my mind, Canes mgmt has to err on the side of caution in any negotiation. E pretty much has to negotiate from the position that he'll get back at least close to pre injury production.  Seems like we're going to have to taste the pudding before there's any chance of an agreement being reached. ('cause that's where the proof is, get it?) :rolleyes:  

 

Oh, and I don't put much stock at all into the article that E wants $9m per going forward.  I'm much more skeptical about what I read on the internet than I used to be.   

Edited by LakeLivin

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I don't know much about the hockey writer who broke the Staal wants $9 million but the story sure has legs now. Just about everyone is writing about it. I agree with those who say as long as the negotiations aren't a distraction there is no rush.

 

For myself I don't have any problem thinking Staals agent is asking $9 million. You don't start player negotiations at the bottom of what the player will take. That is the player side. If your management you don't start at the top of the number you have penciled in. 

 

I'll go out on a limb and say if Staal isn't signed by November he won't be re-signed. Just a hunch.

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If Staal has stuck to a negotiating figure of $9 million, the only reason I can think of that RF has not traded him already is that Eric has used his NTC. I would actually like to see the Hurricanes keep Staal, but only at a price that makes sense. The numbers generally on this board seem about right. Maybe Eric should talk to Tlusty and ask him how it worked out for him turning down whatever RF offered him in February. I'm pretty sure it was north of $800K. I hope this rumor is unfounded.

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"Maybe we're offering $5 million. We end up in the middle at $7 ish."

 

If we end up at 7ish, it just tells me we've gone crazy. 

 

Eric is a $4-5million dollar player. 

 

And regarding wingers... after this many years, I don't see the argument of "if we could just get him outstanding linemates then he would be outstanding..."

 

When is it the highest paid player on this team makes others look outstanding?

 

When your the 2nd line getting those matchups which Staal got that year as our 2nd line center (Cup year) it helps to have Cory Stillman who was outstanding passing, and ex-Redwing Ray Whitney who was crafty finding open ice.  If we pay over 6 mill someone has gone crazy in Raleigh. As the same Eric  Staal that has not been the answer for the last 5 years wont be next year either.

 

Insanity is repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different result.

Edited by one-timer

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This team made a bet that Eric Staal would be our new Roddy, and no small bet at that. The organization, still drunk on Cup champagne, was so sure that it put up a 10-year deal with an NTC at Sid Crosby money. 

 

It lost that bet.

 

Truly elite talents make those around them better. They do what they're told ("GET IN THE SLOT!!!"). And - perhaps most tellingly - they play with injuries and produce in spite of them. That's hockey. Poseurs, on the other hand, blame their line mates, "prefer to play center" and get treatment for hangnails.

 

The question is whether Eric can accept a role that allows him to make the most of his talents as PART OF a team, rather than as THE FACE OF the team. On some level Eric WANTED that attention; one does not sign the contract he did and take the C without knowing they will be scrutinized. I don't know if he can accept a lower paycheck and less prominence; on one level I hope so, on another I really don't care, because this is a TEAM and I believe we've made too much room and too many excuses for him already.

 

That being said, and while I agree with much of Hag's post, I disagree that both sides already know where this is going. While there's some GM somewhere who might give E $9 million, the fact that he's still here after major moves - moves that did not not involve him - by the team many believed he'd go to, Toronto, suggests RF isn't the league's only Staal skeptic. And RF is merely one of the best to ever play the game.

 

If the Canes get out of the gate fast this year and make the playoffs, AND if Eric plays a key role in that happening, he can probably go anywhere he likes at whatever number he wants. Except here. When you've got a 10-year data set and sign a guy with his record to another $9 million anyway just because he has a few great months, you clearly haven't learned anything. So I think the most Eric gets is $7.5 here for five years, and that's if he goes absolutely crazy this season. If he's as pedestrian as he's been lately, I think the most we offer is $6.5 for four years. And if he's worse, I think we cut him loose.

 

The bottom line: It depends not only on how performs, but whether GMRF feels he can/will perform that way over the next 3-4 seasons, and whether what he brings is what BP and RF believe this team needs. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Well maybe Staal knows something nobody else does. Maybe he knows he was injured and playing in pain. Maybe he feels stronger than ever and worked his butt off this summer and he knows he's gonna put up 80points.

Even if he gets off to a big start on his way to 80points....9mil is still to much and to big of a risk for us to take with him, given his track record for injuries and unmotivated play in recent years.

Staal and his agent have to start high, they probably know he will not get 9mil, its business though so they got to set a high price and see how he plays the first few months. Than RF will have to decide if he's gonna gamble on a 8mil per year long term contract, or maybe offer a 2 year 8.5mil contract, or just let him go and completely start over. Gonna be a tough one for RF, unless of course Staal is slow and lazy out the gate, than it will be an easy decision.

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Speculation is what we do so....again, IF Staal is coming in asking $9million a couple of points, some already made:

 

1. It is his opening bid. Almost certainly we are in lower than we'll come up to also.

 

2. It is too early for both sides to move much off their postions for the reasons also listed:

 

Eric is betting on himself. As danimal points out, he may know he was playing injured, or that he'll do better as Lindholm improves, or whatever, but he kinows he will do better than last year, and is betting on himself that he will, which will up his final value.

 

GMRF wants time to see A. What Staal has left to give and B. If this team is still in contention by "American" Thanksgiving. Both could have profound affects on how this goes down.

 

The ideal thing would be one of two polar opposites for the team.

 

1. We are just as bad as nearly every national media outlet and most of this board thinks, as we move to a road game in Madison Square Garden Nov 30, we area already at least 12 points out. In that case, trading Staal just makes sense. At that point, even with Staal, we are so bad that we are essentinally out of the playoffs before December....again.

 

This tellls us that we are likely more than a year away even with E. So get a haul for him. Another first rounder, and a top 6 player at least. Depending on what we do w/ Ward, we could have an astounding 4 first round picks next year. If that nets at least 2 superior forwards, we are in great shape a few years out for a long time. But imagine this.....we then re sign E. as a UFA in the offeseason. Add him back into the mix with our forward first round haul....and our fast developing defense..

 

2. We are solidly in the mix and defying expectations. This is not likely to happen unless E. is playing well, but it could happen if he does. It is not as impossible as the national media holds. We just need guys to return to their potential and a couple (Rask/Lindy) to step up. Yes, at least two if not three years of this group NOT hitting its potential makes the smart bet "no", but not necesarily the smart bet if given the odds. ie, would I bet on us making the playoffs straight up? No, but if you give me 4:1 odds, yes. This is where we differ from say Arizona or Toronto. We at least have names on the paper that could if not should do way better than last year.

 

In that case the best thing would be to sign E, BUT it still has to be a number that makes sense and no NTC or a modified one. If we still can't get to yes, then we get closer to the deadline. If the dream is still alive, try again to sign him. If we've fallen out..trade.

 

The problem is that we might be in the middle somewhere. Maybe we're 6 points out of that last playoff spot. Maybe we've been playing better. And all kinds of other "middling" outcomes. Then it is case by case. How far out? Has E dropped his price? Will he lose the NTC? What are the trade offers? Will he let us trade him?

 

I know I've advocated signing E now, and I still do, BUT it would have to be at a number that makes sense and w/ the NTC gone. I still think that would be best. However, clearly E is not ready to sign that deal right now. So, we wait.

 

The key is that Francis keeps things amicable. I think he will, but these things have broken down before in other places.

 

In the long run, time is still on E's side, unless he's injured. And that is one reason why he might prefer getting something done at some point to going all the way to UFA. But if healty, and if he plays well. He will hold more and more cards. Still, if the $9 million is true, we really have no choice. Like I said, he holds the cards due to three little words that JR threw in: No Trade Clause.

Edited by remkin

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"I know I've advocated signing E now, and I still do, BUT it would have to be at a number that makes sense bargain price and w/ the NTC gone."

 

Fixed it for ya ;)

 

If we paid more than 5 million right now, this minute, we'd be crazy.

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This team made a bet that Eric Staal would be our new Roddy, and no small bet at that. The organization, still drunk on Cup champagne, was so sure that it put up a 10-year deal with an NTC at Sid Crosby money. 

 

 

I don't know if I'd classify Eric's style as the new Roddy. Rod was a very vocal, lead by example Captain. I also would say he's not Ronnie either. Ron led by example and had that presence. Really all of our Captains over the years have had that, presence! 

Kevin Dineen, Keith Primeau, Ron Francis, Rod Brind'Amour. I get that with Eric.

I see Eric more like Keith Primeau. A very good player. One mistake made was giving Eric the "C".  I believe he's not been able to handle the added pressure of being the leader of this team.

 

For me, Jordan seems to fit that Roddy mold better than his older brother.  He's a more physical player, while Eric is more finesse. Plus Jordan, when he's the "man", stepped up his game. See Pittsburgh when both Sid and Geno went down with injury. He seems to have problems being in someone shadow, but once out of it, we see more of what he can do.

I'd like to keep Eric, as long as it didn't hurt the team. Hometown discount as far as contract ($5-7mil), otherwise, see what we can get for him at the trade deadline.

Edited by hopper915

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Bob McKenzies's take on the 9-million dollar rumor:

 

@NicholsOnHockey: McKenzie on Eric Staal: "He didn't ask for $9 million. He hasn't asked for anything yet. There have been no numbers exchanged." #Canes

 

LOL

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Bob McKenzies's take on the 9-million dollar rumor:

 

@NicholsOnHockey: McKenzie on Eric Staal: "He didn't ask for $9 million. He hasn't asked for anything yet. There have been no numbers exchanged." #Canes

 

LOL

 

So the E asking price is somewhere between 0 and $9 million. Sounds workable to me :D

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Bob McKenzies's take on the 9-million dollar rumor:

 

@NicholsOnHockey: McKenzie on Eric Staal: "He didn't ask for $9 million. He hasn't asked for anything yet. There have been no numbers exchanged." #Canes

 

LOL

If true, this is great news.

 

I have every confidence that this team has said, "let's see what you have left in the tank, then we'll talk."

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Breaking: Agent says Eric Staal Rumors False by Mark Shiver

 

“Although I don’t normally comment on the negotiation processes that I am involved with on behalf of the players I represent, I can tell you that the numbers that were thrown out there are not true. In fact, No numbers have been discussed yet for Eric Staal.”

 

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Good, I'm glad Eric was not happy about everyone thinking he was a greedy fool.

I'm sure he demanded his agent put the rumors to rest. The last thing he wants is the fan base finding another reason to bad mouth him. I would think both sides agree to see what kind of start he gets off to and than talk about the future. I'm rooting hard for Eric, I hope he comes back in his best form yet and blows all the bull out of the water.

Edited by danimal-ch1

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I don't know if I'd classify Eric's style as the new Roddy. Rod was a very vocal, lead by example Captain. I also would say he's not Ronnie either. Ron led by example and had that presence. Really all of our Captains over the years have had that, presence! 

Kevin Dineen, Keith Primeau, Ron Francis, Rod Brind'Amour. I get that with Eric.

I see Eric more like Keith Primeau. A very good player. One mistake made was giving Eric the "C".  I believe he's not been able to handle the added pressure of being the leader of this team.

 

For me, Jordan seems to fit that Roddy mold better than his older brother.  He's a more physical player, while Eric is more finesse. Plus Jordan, when he's the "man", stepped up his game. See Pittsburgh when both Sid and Geno went down with injury. He seems to have problems being in someone shadow, but once out of it, we see more of what he can do.

I'd like to keep Eric, as long as it didn't hurt the team. Hometown discount as far as contract ($5-7mil), otherwise, see what we can get for him at the trade deadline.

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that Eric would be a leader in the Roddy mold - just that he was the club's choice to be its leader for the foreseeable future at the time his deal was done. And that he has not fulfilled that assignment, if the yardstick is post-season appearances.

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To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that Eric would be a leader in the Roddy mold - just that he was the club's choice to be its leader for the foreseeable future at the time his deal was done. And that he has not fulfilled that assignment, if the yardstick is post-season appearances.

I wasn't implying that you were TS. I should have been more clear. To be honest, we really didn't have someone on the team at that time that could be seen as the future of this team when Eric was anointed as Captain. Whitney was getting up there in age. Cole, maybe if he hadn't had that horrific injury, might have been a consideration. Wesley on the verge of retiring. Maybe they should have given it to Cam! ;)

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I wasn't implying that you were TS. I should have been more clear. To be honest, we really didn't have someone on the team at that time that could be seen as the future of this team when Eric was anointed as Captain. Whitney was getting up there in age. Cole, maybe if he hadn't had that horrific injury, might have been a consideration. Wesley on the verge of retiring. Maybe they should have given it to Cam! ;)

 

Seems like that may be a big part of the problem. Not just that we gave the C to Eric, rather that we didn't have anybody better to give it to.

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Bob McKenzies's take on the 9-million dollar rumor:

 

@NicholsOnHockey: McKenzie on Eric Staal: "He didn't ask for $9 million. He hasn't asked for anything yet. There have been no numbers exchanged." #Canes

 

LOL

 

OK, I'm glad the $9 million isn't true, but how on Earth are the two sides too far apart to get this done if there have been no numbers discussed?

 

Francis to Staals agent: "So we a;; know Eric will have to come down from his current deal".

 

Staal's agent: "We don't all know that."

 

Francis: "OK. Nice chat, stay in touch."

 

 

If it is true that no numbers have been discussed then they are really just discussing that they should really have a disucssion some time.

Edited by remkin

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I wasn't implying that you were TS. I should have been more clear. To be honest, we really didn't have someone on the team at that time that could be seen as the future of this team when Eric was anointed as Captain. Whitney was getting up there in age. Cole, maybe if he hadn't had that horrific injury, might have been a consideration. Wesley on the verge of retiring. Maybe they should have given it to Cam! ;)

Oh, no worries, I figured you knew what I meant, just wanted to be sure others got it.

 

I'd be all for giving the C to Cam, but as you know, the league doesn't permit keepers to be captain. More telling, as you suggest, is that Staal was the guy almost by default, although I think it was due more to his contract than a lack of other options.

 

When I look at the 2006-07 and 2007-08 rosters, I see (admittedly, with the benefit of hindsight) that there were two, maybe three other guys who could rightfully have been in the conversation but never were: Justin Williams, Andrew Ladd, and Tim Gleason. All young enough, all respected enough and all, without question, having a work ethic that served them well throughout their careers. (Although something tells me the C is the last thing Williams would have wanted, on any team. A big part of his success has been his stealth, and the C is pretty much homing device for opposing players.) 

 

The times and the organization's attitude were different back then, too. After the Cup, JR decided the Canes had finally arrived, and he tried to consolidate that victory by signing a long-term franchise player, just like other teams were. Oh, and can we have a side of Marty Brodeur, while we're at it?

 

But because of our market's size, it's easy to see (again, with hindsight) that we are not and never will be like other teams. If we sign two guys to contracts like that, we've got nothing left to attract top talent to complement them. It's easy (now) to imagine a Bill Peters/Ron Francis brain trust tapping a guy like Williams or Ladd or even Gleason, because they were consistently bringing what both men believe will be required to make this org a long-term winner. But JR was always about selling the sizzle, and from the moment he signed Eric to that deal there was no doubt who the next Captain would be. 

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OK, I'm glad the $9 million isn't true, but how on Earth are the two sides too far apart to get this done if there have been no numbers discussed?

 

Francis to Staals agent: "So we a;; know Eric will have to come down from his current deal".

 

Staal's agent: "We don't all know that."

 

Francis: "OK. Nice chat, stay in touch."

 

 

If it is true that no numbers have been discussed then they are really just discussing that they should really have a disucssion some time.

 

Seriously.

 

"Hey, whacha guys doing?"

 

"Ah nothing... Just sittin' around, talking parameters."

 

"Cool.  Can I join in?  I love talk about parameters."

 

I'm sorry but this "agent-speak" is enough to drive me nuts.  Maybe that's why RF apparently hasn't had much heart to pursue things.  I can imagine getting a stonewall from the agent and having the talks just go cold.

 

The agent did say "timing" and "parameters."  My guess?  The agent was talking something like "5 years +" and that was a show stopper to negotiations.  So, perhaps he didn't get down to numbers.  But if the term is long and they have their feet in the concrete, it could get testy.

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Staal has been in the playoffs twice in his career. I'm not sure he would have been a fist line center on any playoff team from the east last season. His work ethic has been questioned quite often on this message board. He was touted as the next Ron Francis when drafted, but more often than not, he has played like Connie Francis. He hasn't really made himself better, let alone, the guys that played along with him. He has been here since 2003, so he is the player that he is. Potential has been reached. He is not an elite center, so he shouldn't be paid as such. I say don't sign him. Make him prove himself. If he has a good year, make him an offer. If we are out of it, try to trade him. If he has a chance to win a Cup, and he won't waive his ntc, that will show a lot about his character.

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Ron Francis is playing this perfectly! No deals up front. You earn your next contract. I think it's brilliant and refreshing to see a GM make a player prove his worth rather than speculating big money on what he "thinks" a player will produce in the future. Granted, there is some of that involved, but we're holding a guy at an $8mil+ cap hit that hasn't put up jack for points in two back to back seasons. I hope Staal shoots the lights out and earns a biggie, but if he doesn't.........

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