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The great E Staal Has Been Traded Thread

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And no offense taken - but danimal's doesn't?

 

Rather than claim I've had conversations with players on topics which no (smart) player is going to openly discuss with any fan, I look at the evidence and at behavior.

 

In this case, one only needs to look at Eric's play and attitude.

 

I believe we've already agreed on this board that Eric's consistent play at center during Muller's tenure was due to JR's insistence that he play there. Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall there being documentation of it, and of Eric's insider relationship with JR. And we all well know that center is not where Peters and RF see him as being most effective.

 

The undermining I'm referring to is not a purposeful undermining, but what resulted of JR's intervention with Muller on Eric's behalf. As in any other management situation, you can't have one superior telling an employee where and how they will work, if that employee knows he can go crying to someone higher up and have his immediate supervisor's direction negated. Once that happens, the first manager - in this case the coach - has been neutered.

 

All one needs to look at is how the yutes played for Muller. They worked, hard--and progressed. The vets never did.

Ah, so now your calling me a liar?  Ha ha, its ok,.  I ran into Chad a few times at a local bar by where he lives.  he was ok with talking some hockey and being honest and thats what he told me,not in detail but he always made it clear he hated Muller and wasn't the only one. .  Add that to all the other signs and It seems safe to say that Muller was not loved by his locker room. 

My original point to all this is that E. Staal does have plenty of excuses to why he's had a couple mediocre years.   Knee, Foot, toxic unehalthy locker room.   If he starts out slow than all those excuses go out the window for me and E. has lost it.  If he starts out like the old E. than maybe there was just to many problems for him to get  motivated,fired up, and gel with his teammates.  In the end 8mil a year should be enough to motivate anyone!   Can't wait to see it Thursday!

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I do think Danimal summed it up. We're about to find out on the ice. There is a lot of past. Past coaches, past GM's, and their effect on and relationships with E and the rest of the guys. The only "inside" info I got was what Brind'Amor said at the lunch I attended. Basically that JR did have some level of "hands off our best players" thing, at least somewhat handcuffing his coach's authority.

 

The quote was, "Things are different now (under Francis/Peters). Guys know it. For instance that benching of Semin would never have happened in the past." And a bit more. I can't stretch it further than that.

 

Except this: E. can clearly see that Francis is running a different ship. I'm sure Peters and Francis have an interest in Staal staying, but it has to be on their terms, at least as much as his. E. controls the trade, but Francis controls the stay here. E will undoubtably be treated with respect here, but there will be no JR coddle. Thing is, I have seen no proof the E is any kind of prima donna. Sure, he's not Brind'Amour, but he does generaly suffer quietly, he does not whine. He may be fine with the new envirnoment, heck, often the best players want that kind of structure. I'm sure it killed E to watch Semin glide around for an entire year.

 

I have to think from E's perspective that the two biggest negatives to staying here are losing and really not having an elite linemate. I think he can fit in with the new GM and Coach if he wants to stay.

 

But really, from all indications E is in good shape injury wise, so the next couple of months is probably the final "evaluation" for E. True, he does not have an elite winger, but  A. We can still evaluated with that caveat, and B. He isn't likely to have an elite winger for a while if he stays anyway, so let's see what he has.

 

This team and E, both who have started slow a lot, absolutely must start strong. The first 11 games are from tough to brutal. If we slide bad there, I have to think E slides one foot out the door. The we get a butnch of home games in November. If we slide there, he slides out the door probably. But it hasn't happened yet. This team, and E really could surprise.

 

I guess we're about to find out.

Edited by remkin

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Ah, so now your calling me a liar?  Ha ha, its ok,.  I ran into Chad a few times at a local bar by where he lives.  he was ok with talking some hockey and being honest and thats what he told me,not in detail but he always made it clear he hated Muller and wasn't the only one. .  Add that to all the other signs and It seems safe to say that Muller was not loved by his locker room. 

My original point to all this is that E. Staal does have plenty of excuses to why he's had a couple mediocre years.   Knee, Foot, toxic unehalthy locker room.   If he starts out slow than all those excuses go out the window for me and E. has lost it.  If he starts out like the old E. than maybe there was just to many problems for him to get  motivated,fired up, and gel with his teammates.  In the end 8mil a year should be enough to motivate anyone!   Can't wait to see it Thursday!

I can't wait either, Danimal, and sorry if I offended you in any way.

 

Chad shooting off his mouth is why Chad no longer works here. Blaming the coach for players' lack of performance has never sat well with me, and what little respect I had for Chad for his on-ice work ethic is now gone, based on your story. The local bar is not the place to air team business, and (again) I find it really interesting that it was the vets who complained under Muller and the yutes who grew into their roles (Lindy and Faulk most especially).

 

I think RF's statements about the difficulty he had with the decision to let Kirk go speaks volumes. Whatever the reason, Kirk and the vets had a break that RF decided could not be repaired. Now we have Peters - another guy who isn't afraid to sit guys down - and all of a sudden it's working. The only other change is our GM--which suggests to me that players have no one to hide behind anymore.

 

We do agree that Eric is out of excuses. I just feel that he ran out of them about five years ago.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I do think Danimal summed it up. We're about to find out on the ice. There is a lot of past. Past coaches, past GM's, and their effect on and relationships with E and the rest of the guys. The only "inside" info I got was what Brind'Amor said at the lunch I attended. Basically that JR did have some level of "hands off our best players" thing, at least somewhat handcuffing his coach's authority.

 

The quote was, "Things are different now (under Francis/Peters). Guys know it. For instance that benching of Semin would never have happened in the past." And a bit more. I can't stretch it further than that.

 

Except this: E. can clearly see that Francis is running a different ship. I'm sure Peters and Francis have an interest in Staal staying, but it has to be on their terms, at least as much as his. E. controls the trade, but Francis controls the stay here. E will undoubtably be treated with respect here, but there will be no JR coddle. Thing is, I have seen no proof the E is any kind of prima donna. Sure, he's not Brind'Amour, but he does generaly suffer quietly, he does not whine. He may be fine with the new envirnoment, heck, often the best players want that kind of structure. I'm sure it killed E to watch Semin glide around for an entire year.

 

I have to think from E's perspective that the two biggest negatives to staying here are losing and really not having an elite linemate. I think he can fit in with the new GM and Coach if he wants to stay.

 

But really, from all indications E is in good shape injury wise, so the next couple of months is probably the final "evaluation" for E. True, he does not have an elite winger, but  A. We can still evaluated with that caveat, and B. He isn't likely to have an elite winger for a while if he stays anyway, so let's see what he has.

 

This team and E, both who have started slow a lot, absolutely must start strong. The first 11 games are from tough to brutal. If we slide bad there, I have to think E slides one foot out the door. The we get a butnch of home games in November. If we slide there, he slides out the door probably. But it hasn't happened yet. This team, and E really could surprise.

 

I guess we're about to find out.

Agree with all of this, including the timeline - just not the elite winger piece, as you know. Great players make those around them better. You could see it happening the last couple of games with Gerbs and Jordan; could be some serious chemistry there.

 

Thursday seems a month away!!!

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Maybe this is the year E makes those around him better!

 

I get the point on that, but there is always a matter of degree. But I would concede that E. has not proven to be a great player. But he can be a very good player that can contribute to a great team. If the price is right.

 

YES! Let's not only get some real hockey, but maybe a nice surprise start!

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Top, I just wanted to clear up that your statements that Staal conspired with JR to undermine Muller was just your assertion.  And that's fine, that's your prerogative.

 

However, you stated it like you had some inside info to support your claim (which you don't), and it was a given fact (when clearly it's not).

 

Thanks.

Okay, finally found it: http://fans.hurricanes.nhl.com/community/topic/22235-behind-the-bench-coach-talk/?p=405004

 

The Forslund piece it references still appears to be working, and is as close to the inside info you are asking for as we'll likely ever get. 

 

Hat tip to Remkin for bumping up the Coach Talk thread (unintentionally, I'm sure!  :lol: ). This post was atop the latest page there. I knew it was out there somewhere, coastal--and again, apologies for not being able to find it sooner. But it does my aging brain good to know I didn't dream it :)

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Hard to believe that audio is still out there! Is very interesting to hear that not just for the specific issue, but just to hear John's thoughts about Peters when he was hired.

 

They are talking about the schedule and lamenting how bad it was two years ago (the previous year at the time of this interview). John liked the schedule. "Excellent opportunity to get their feet under them....you just want to see what kind of Rat's chance they have right out of the shoot. I think they have a pretty good one and they should be able to take advantage of that and be positioned well when they come back to that and take advantage of the November schedule when they come home."

 

Didn't quite play out that way...

Edited by remkin

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The Eric Staal "situation" is in the ether out there. Here is an article about it. Not sure it breaks new ground but at least a different perspective:

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/eric-staal-and-his-contract-conundrum-with-carolina-215122138.html

 

I think he's gone.  Whether it is he knows that they will not re-sign him or he will go for the $.  Stuff will play out.  Stuff.

 

"“I’ve been in Carolina my whole career. I have stated I’d like to stay and be a part of getting better and getting back to the playoffs with this group, but  in reality is that stuff will play out as it goes"

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I think Estaal being gone this year is already a done deal. If you notice he is rarely given post game interviews anymore and it's always other players pictured on the website now. I think it's a concerted effort by management to distance him from fans and his image as the "face of the Canes". I think they are trying to soften the blow back from the fans and establish a new semi-identity before he goes. May be wrong, but makes sense of his lack of media involvement this year.

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Holy mother of all rumors Batman! :hotflash:

 

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/fischlers-one-timers-if-crosby-is-untouchable-penguins-should-look-to-deal-malkin/

 

Could a deal for Jordan follow?

 

 

 

Now in point of fact this deal seems crazy even for JR. But still...

Pretty crazy since they signed him up until 2022. I laugh when they say he's off to a slow start with 22 pts. 11G 11A

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Holy mother of all rumors Batman! :hotflash:

 

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/fischlers-one-timers-if-crosby-is-untouchable-penguins-should-look-to-deal-malkin/

 

Could a deal for Jordan follow?

 

 

 

Now in point of fact this deal seems crazy even for JR. But still...

I'm with all the commenters on that post - Fischler is joking. (In all honesty, the big news for me in this whole thing is that Fischler is still alive! What's he now, like 362?  :lol: )

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I'm with all the commenters on that post - Fischler is joking. (In all honesty, the big news for me in this whole thing is that Fischler is still alive! What's he now, like 362?  :lol: )

 

Yeah I think you're right on both counts. But it opens the debate back on this thread too.

 

As I posted on the GDT, Victor Rask is soundly outscoring E. in goals and equal in points, and soundly outscoring J across both. Eric remains on a 50 point pace. The team is all but out of it.

 

I just keep thinking it is one of those things that is best for both parties if he is traded, and ideally before the holiday deadline. That would mean basically in the next two weeks. I say then for two reasons.

 

1. The return tends to be higher away from the actual trade deadline in March.

2. This team needs to change direction sooner than later. It just isn't working.

 

I am now thinking that it is more likely that Eric has himself overvalued in his head. I will elaborate on my next post. But I am thinking Eric Staal's true market value is way below what he will take now. And given the long history of overpayment, it is just not going to come together.

 

I've posted before, but from Eric's point of view getting to a contender would be nice after all of this futility. Getting to a team that he is not Captain of or not looked to as the man could be good for part of a season. Getting to see a diffrent organization, even if just for a few months would be good perspective. And finally, getting on a line with a playmaker would let him up his points, because right now he is a 50 point player, end of story.

 

Interesting factoids that many already know but still:

 

Eric Staal: #9 forward in pay. #77 in production last year.

Jordan Staal: #32 forward in pay. #125 in points (prorated last year for 76 game season). #180 this year.

C Ward. # 6 goalie in pay. #59 last year, #55 this year in save %.

 

Time for change.

Edited by remkin

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So what is Eric Staal worth?

 

Of course it depends on what he will produce over the next 4-5 years. The problem is that his production over the past 2 years and so far this year suggest 55 points roughly. Some would argue that he brings more than points as Captain and as a top line center. But I would argue, not so fast. He has largely not been playing center, and his Captaincy has not met with much success on the ice. Further, historically Eric has not been a great 2 way player either. (He is doing well with that on the wing this year, but has been a dismal minus all of the past 5 years except the lockout year). So what he brings in leadership is offset by plus-minus.

 

It can also be argued that he is a master of garbage points (empty netters, etc).

 

What all of this means to me is that point production is a very valid tool in assessing Eric's value. In fact, if anything one might downgrade his production on the plus minus part of the equation.

 

So, if we assume that he is worth at most the points he produces, then his best estimated production potential and likihood over the next 4-5 years owuld set his value to us. This is a key point. Eric has the option of testing the open market next year. This could serve to bump up the deal he gets. That may be his UFA open market value, but guys tend to get overpaid to way overpaid in that market. It is important though, because at this point Eric is NOT worth overpaying. 

 

So, how many points can we expect from Eric over the next 4 years? No one knows for sure, but unles we bring in Malkin to center him, or if Lindy or Skinner or Rask find a much higher level, probablby 55 points/year is not an unreasonable guess.

 

What is a 55 point guy worth? Well let's just say that most of them make under $5 million:

 

J. Huberdeau: 54 points: $4.5 milllion, M Little 60 points, less than $5 million, B Saad 50 points, $4.5 million K Okposo 55 points $4.5 million, Hornvquist 50 points, $4.5 million, R strome 50 points, $4.75 million. W Simmonds 55 points, M Zuccerello 55 points, Scheifele 50 points, $4.75 million, Bakes: 55 points, $4.75 million. Scott Hartnell 55 points, $4.75 million, Carl Soderberg 48 points, $4.75 million, Bryan Little 60 points, $4.75 million, M. Gaborick, 80 points, $4.75 million, D. Brassard: 55 points, $5 million. M Camelari 50 points, $5 million, T. Plecanec 50 points, $5 million.

 

Looked at another way. Most of us think Eric won't take less than his grossly overpaid little brother. That means at least $6.2 million/year.

 

So what does $5.6-6.0 million buy you? In other words at $6.2 million/year, who would Eric be paid more than?

 

T Seguin: $6m, 80 points

J Tavares: $6m, 80 points

J Carter: $5.6 m, 60 points

A Steen: $5.8 m, 65 points

L Couture: $6 m, 70 points

M Hossa: $5.5 m, 60 points

T Hall: $6.0m, 80 points

J Pavelski: $6.0 m, 70 points

J Benn: $6.0 m, 87 points

 

To be worth $6.2 million/year, Eric would have to put up at LEAST 70 points/year on average over the next say 4 years.

 

The problem with the not taking less than Jordan is that Jordan is overpaid, even if he had Eric's numbers.

 

This does not even address the NTC.

 

IF Eric is now a 55 point player, then the fair market value by my read would be $4.75-$5.0 million/year. If one wanted to kick it up to drop the NTC, and due to UFA, $5.5 million would be a doable deal. But not a penny more.

 

Betting on Eric to be a 65-70 point player over the next 4 years is not a great bet straight up. But for us, when put in the context of 4 more years of even possibly overpayed Staals, and all of the losing, and when weighed against a first round pick plus in return? No way. And that is to pay him $6.0 million.

 

The other thing is this. Even if he drops the NTC, if he is being seriously overpaid, he will be seriously hard to trade.

 

So if I'm Francis I offer $5 million/year and no NTC, with the room to go up to $5.5 million max.

 

I doubt Eric takes that frankly.

 

When this is weighed with the best for both parties scenario, I think they come to this: "we are too far appart on this deal. A little time appart might do us both some good. Let us get something for you, and you go try to win a cup and play with some talent. After the season, when the dust settles, if you still want to be part of this team, let's see where the market is, maybe we can work it out."

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Eric's head is to big to accept 5 mil..Just hoping RF doesn't go higher. I'd prefer a trade or let him walk and free up our cap. I wouldn't offer Cam any more than 3 mil. We should start seeing some action across the NHL next week as Owners will get a hint from Bettman of what the Cap space for next year will be at. Many teams are on the cap bubble and holding off for now before they make key decisions on some of their players.

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. . .

The other thing is this. Even if he drops the NTC, if he is being seriously overpaid, he will be seriously hard to trade.

. . .

 

He'll be a lot easier to trade near the deadline because of the way the Cap works.  For those not familiar with it, basically teams "accumulate" whatever extra cap space they have throughout the season. And a new player only counts against the team for that portion of the season he plays for them, so near the deadline the Canes will have already eaten a good portion of E's Cap hit.  

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He'll be a lot easier to trade near the deadline because of the way the Cap works.  For those not familiar with it, basically teams "accumulate" whatever extra cap space they have throughout the season. And a new player only counts against the team for that portion of the season he plays for them, so near the deadline the Canes will have already eaten a good portion of E's Cap hit.  

 

No one said it would be easy, only better.

 

At least 10 teams could fit him in right now, and two more if we just take back $1 million in salary. Others would require more salary back our way, and probably are more deadline deals.

 

So who makes the most sense?

 

Nashville makes so much sense it hurts. They are thin as tissue paper at center, and clearly expect to be a playoff team. Eric would probably waive to go there and make a cup run w/ Laviolette. They can easily fit Eric under the cap right now with no offset. They are a Western team, so if Eric re-signs with them it is an easier move for Francis. They are in a wild card slot, but anything can happen in the West and they are only in the playoffs by 3 points. There is a chance that their first rounder could be a lottery pick, though probably not. The only thing is prospects. They have a couple of good forward prospects, but as a team in need of offense will probably not trade their first rounder and their top forward prospect. It would be their first rounder plus something. Maybe 2017 second rounder? I don't know, but they have the need and the cap space.

 

New Jersey makes sense too. They surprisingly find themselves in the playoff hunt and they are pretty weak at center too. They can fit Eric in now as well. They would also be a good bet to possibly fall out of the playoffs and their first rounder could be a lottery pick too.

 

Arizona, oddly, makes sense too. They are, amazingly, in the playoffs as we speak. They can fit him in with no offset. They need centers. If they want to make a push, they have a very good chance of falling short, even with E. And their pick could be a really nice one.

 

Winnipeg, doesn't make as much sense in that they have less center need, but they could fit him in, even if he plays wing. Mo knows him. They are outside looking in but by a couple of points. E. might go play in a packed house for awhile.

 

Toronto. Makes no sense as a rental, but would be the best deal for us. They were rumored to be interested at one time, and have more than enough cap space. IF E. would sign a new deal with them it would make sense? Their pick will probably be top 5. This would be a trade and sign, but I would take their pick for E. in a heartbeat.

 

It teams look at rental E as a winger, then he could fit in with Anaheim, NYI, Ottawa, and San Jose (the last two we'd have to take a $1 million salary back).

 

It is doable.

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I would love to have Johansen on the team. He is already a legit 70 point guy. He is big and still young. He is a steal this year at $3.0 million, but that is of little use to us. He is worth his $6 million next year too. But then he needs to be signed again. He will be a RFA, but could draw an offer. He really only makes sense if we can get him signed after next year.

 

But talk about re loading fast.

 

Thing is, what would that deal look like? I doubt they give him to us for Staal.

Edited by remkin

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I read that Columbus is trying to unload him. I don't remember where I read it though. I have no idea what this deal would look like but it could be close to a like for like deal if Columbus really is trying to unload him and shake things up.

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