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2015/16 In-Season Talk

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Giving up a known asset for an unknown asset is flawed logic regardless of the name on the sweater or how it's justified.

 

That is called rationalization.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Giving up a known asset for an unknown asset is flawed logic regardless of the name on the sweater or how it's justified.

 

That is called rationalization.

I'm with this. If Faulk is even considered in a trade (and I'm not saying he should be), it simply has to be a current NHL forward that is a known quantity. Trading him for a bag of magic beans could set this franchise back once again.

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Good thing you labeled it, b/c at the rate we've been going after Euro talent, I (at least) might have taken it seriously!

 

Edit: The link also explains why RF was in Chicoutimi last week, negating the claims of the "Canes moving to QC!" troll who showed up here. Thanks coastal.

 

So, your familiar with this whole circus then.

 

I read a remark today that referred to the south as confederate states.  I honestly believe that the person thought that.  Maybe it was lost in the his own handle of the English language but it was too damn funny to read that.  :lol:

 

So, the latest word is apparently Thursday is the last time the Canes will ever suit up in Raleigh and it will be announced after the game.

 

I don't want to get too deep into this so I'll just leave now.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Giving up a known asset for an unknown asset is flawed logic regardless of the name on the sweater or how it's justified.

 

That is called rationalization.

 

 

I'm with this. If Faulk is even considered in a trade (and I'm not saying he should be), it simply has to be a current NHL forward that is a known quantity. Trading him for a bag of magic beans could set this franchise back once again.

 

I'm in complete agreement with your stated principle (which is why I don't see it being relistic that we might get a legitimate top 6 forward in exchange for draft picks).   The question is: what do you consider a known quantity?  Let's take Faulk out of the equation because, let's face it, RF isn't going to trade Justin Faulk.  But it's still an interesting philosophical question imo.  

 

Take Edmonton as an example.  You've got Hall, Eberle, and RNH who range in age from 22yo to 25yo, 5-6 seasons each, and whose average points/ game over their careers range from 0.71 to 0.85.  Known quantities?   What about Draisaitl? Only 20yo and in his first full year this season he averaged 0.71 pts/ game.  Clearly not as proven as the others.  But he's a center, which some might see as added value over a wing.  And it sounds like Edmonton values him more highly than at least 2 of the 3 others.  Where would he fit in on your "known quantity" scale?  What about Austin Mathews?  He's widely viewed as pretty much a "can't miss" prospect.  But he's still as yet "unproven".  Where would he rank in your eyes from the perspective of a "known quantity"?

 

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to pick at your posts; I'm not. I'm just curious to see how you define "known quantity" via some real examples since it's so hard to quantify otherwise.  

Edited by LakeLivin

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You assume I was speaking of "unknown assets" as forwards.

 

I did. Are you saying that you might be referring to some of our even younger d-yutes like Fleury and McKeown? Cause we're clearly not interested in anyone else's unknown defensive assets.

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I think it's easy to replace a number one d-man on paper but maybe not so easy to actually replace a number one d-man.  And we would need two with a trade.

 

I'll leave it there.

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"Unknown quantity" to me is a player that has not proven himself at the NHL level. Forget about bringing a guy like Matthews into the mix, because he isn't about to be offered up. I think a move with Faulk would have to be for a forward of similar age, with similar NHL success, and on a similar friendly contract. Find that unicorn, and that would qualify as proven or known to me.

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"Unknown quantity" to me is a player that has not proven himself at the NHL level. Forget about bringing a guy like Matthews into the mix, because he isn't about to be offered up. I think a move with Faulk would have to be for a forward of similar age, with similar NHL success, and on a similar friendly contract. Find that unicorn, and that would qualify as proven or known to me.

 

 

This,  I don't think anyone's suggesting trading Faulk for picks and/or prospects.  As i said in my earlier post, 'key cog'.  As in a proven NHL forward, possibly even an All-Star - we are, after all talking of trading our one and only All-Star.  This wouldn't be a trade to restock the cupboard - it would be to secure a top-6 stud.  Anything less, nyet.

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Are Pesce, Hanifin, Slavin, Murphy, Di Guiseppe and Nordstrom available to play for the Checkers if they make the playoffs?

All started out there.

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Well in my hypothetical I postulated Faulk for Draistl and the Oilers first round pick. I would do it in a nano second.

 

Draistil is the #3 overall pick, and if it were not for one Conner McDavid, would be the Oilers most exciting piece of present/future. He is 6'1" and has put up 50 points in 70 games (59 point pace) as a 20 year old, in his first full season in the NHL, and second season at all. He is at 18 goals in 79 games as well and at -3 is in the top 1/3 rd of a decidedly minus team. He is a center. This is a 1C of the future and for a team not having McDavid would easily be the 1C next year.

 

As to the Oiler's first round pick? They are dead last. It will be a top 5 pick and could be Auston Mathews. Even if not if will probably be one of the big elite forwards.

 

Both of them for Faulk? Don't worry if you are against it, because even the Oilers wouldn't be that crazy. They would never do it.

Edited by remkin

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Are Pesce, Hanifin, Slavin, Murphy, Di Guiseppe and Nordstrom available to play for the Checkers if they make the playoffs?

All started out there.

 

The only ones I'm sure about are Hanifin and DiGuiseppe.  I read a while back that they were "sent down" (on paper only) in order to make them eligible for the playoffs.

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Well in my hypothetical I postulated Faulk for Draistl and the Oilers first round pick. I would do it in a nano second.

 

Draistil is the #3 overall pick, and if it were not for one Conner McDavid, would be the Oilers most exciting piece of present/future. He is 6'1" and has put up 50 points in 70 games (59 point pace) as a 20 year old, in his first full season in the NHL, and second season at all. He is at 18 goals in 79 games as well and at -3 is in the top 1/3 rd of a decidedly minus team. He is a center. This is a 1C of the future and for a team not having McDavid would easily be the 1C next year.

 

As to the Oiler's first round pick? They are dead last. It will be a top 5 pick and could be Auston Mathews. Even if not if will probably be one of the big elite forwards.

 

Both of them for Faulk? Don't worry if you are against it, because even the Oilers wouldn't be that crazy. They would never do it.

 

 

Yeah, you did say that - i stand totally corrected.  That said, you called it perfectly with your last sentence.  At the very least they'd 'lottery protect' it, where if they get the first overall (which they will, of course - too much history to think it would go any other way), the Hurricanes get their 2017 first pick instead... but i doubt they'd do that either.

 

If they would do it, yeah, it's tempting in that Draisaitl is already half-proven - but i'd probably stick with my 'key cog' bit and hold out for the forward equivalent of Faulk, a ~5-year near-All-Star caliber forward.  With 29 other GMs in the league, i'd have to think someone would be willing to divvy out a proven scorer in return for a potential franchise defenseman.  Granted i don't see Faulk as a potential franchise defenseman, but he is a strong offensive defenseman, and GMs seem to covet those.

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The only ones I'm sure about are Hanifin and DiGuiseppe.  I read a while back that they were "sent down" (on paper only) in order to make them eligible for the playoffs.

Murphy was already in Charlotte at the time - he was recalled right after the trade deadline - so he should be eligible as well. I don't think the others (Pesce, Slavin, and Nordstrom) are eligible.

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So, your familiar with this whole circus then.

 

I read a remark today that referred to the south as confederate states.  I honestly believe that the person thought that.  Maybe it was lost in the his own handle of the English language but it was too damn funny to read that.  :lol:

 

So, the latest word is apparently Thursday is the last time the Canes will ever suit up in Raleigh and it will be announced after the game.

 

I don't want to get too deep into this so I'll just leave now.

Yeah, you'll recall we got a visit here from a Quebecois last week making the same claim. His big proof was a pic of RF with some Habs' scout in Chicoutimi. Never mind that our prospect captains the opposing team in the playoff series that was being played; RF's presence HAD TO mean the Canes are headed for QC!

 

I love Canada generally and appreciate QC's enthusiasm. But you know what? The 'Diques left for a reason. Building a new arena is the easy part. It doesn't address the larger issues of climate, location, and population. NHL success in QC is going to require local owners with plenty of money who are committed to staying the course after the thrill of the new team wears off two years in, and the team is 5-15 in mid-November.

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Yeah, you did say that - i stand totally corrected.  That said, you called it perfectly with your last sentence.  At the very least they'd 'lottery protect' it, where if they get the first overall (which they will, of course - too much history to think it would go any other way), the Hurricanes get their 2017 first pick instead... but i doubt they'd do that either.

 

If they would do it, yeah, it's tempting in that Draisaitl is already half-proven - but i'd probably stick with my 'key cog' bit and hold out for the forward equivalent of Faulk, a ~5-year near-All-Star caliber forward.  With 29 other GMs in the league, i'd have to think someone would be willing to divvy out a proven scorer in return for a potential franchise defenseman.  Granted i don't see Faulk as a potential franchise defenseman, but he is a strong offensive defenseman, and GMs seem to covet those.

An All-Star D man for anything less than an All-Star forward is not a hockey trade. Meaning, RF won't be making it. If we have to give picks - any picks, regardless of conditions - to get a top-six guy back for Faulk, the negotiations should have ended before they ever got started. 

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Kind of like trading an all star center for basically 2 draft picks and a non NHL ready prospect.  I have already seen RF pull the trigger once and it wasn't that great.  For our teams sake, I hope he does not try and trade Faulk and get fleeced yet again.

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Kind of like trading an all star center for basically 2 draft picks and a non NHL ready prospect.  I have already seen RF pull the trigger once and it wasn't that great.  For our teams sake, I hope he does not try and trade Faulk and get fleeced yet again.

 

 

There's a horse out there but you wouldn't recognize it - it's pretty much a bulge of leather in the pasture.

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Just saying I have heard the:  "If we trade this player we better get at least X, y, and Z in return."  It hardly ever works out the way we want it to.  I say keep Faulk.

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Just saying I have heard the:  "If we trade this player we better get at least X, y, and Z in return."  It hardly ever works out the way we want it to.  I say keep Faulk.

Blue, why do you insist on pretending not to understand what happened? If Eric would have accepted trades to other teams, he brings back a first-round pick. NYR simply had none to give, and blaming RF for E's refusal to be dealt to elsewhere -- how does that makes any kind of sense? (And BTW, not an All-Star center. At least not in the current era.)

 

Faulk has no NTC, so your point - well, doesn't exist.

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I wish you guys would stop quoting somebody that I have on my ignore list. It kind of makes the ignoring part hard to do.

I will say this on the ignored comment since I have seen it. If somebody is trying to make a comparison on a trade involving All Star Faulk and All Star (as of 2011) Staal, that someone is way out on a limb or still beating an ex-horse.

Edited by super_dave_1

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This is why I want a healthy Rask to be given a chance at becoming a first-line center. He anticipates, he's fast, has great hands, and is big enough to hold ground in the slot. He also reacts to goals like they are expected, not a gift or a surprise. The guy is the epitome of calm, cool and collected. Put Skinner on one wing and pick up a youngish guy who PROJECTS to 40 or 50 points - but who hasn't gotten those numbers yet - let BP's system do the rest, and there's your top line. Without breaking the bank.

 

 

Ok, you put that in there just to see if we are reading all the way through, right? I mean, I love Rask and all, and he might be able to pull off a #1C eventually, but fast? You are probably the first person to ever call him that.

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The idea of trading Faulk is sure to at least generate some discussion. I think we could all name a forward that we would do that trade, but trading a known fan favorite for a hypothetical is always a dicey proposition.

 

The main reason I keep circling back to at least looking at it is:

 

1. We are overloaded on Defense, especially the defense of say 3 years from now. With Fleury and McKeown looking good in the pipeline.

2. We desperately need skilled, ideally decent sized, fast, and ideally elite forwards. Both for their direct contribution and to take heat off of our current couple of scorers. They are a rare commodity, and hard to find. You have to give to get. That is the hard part of trades, especially theoretical ones.

3. The arrival out of nowhere of Pesce and Slavin, combined with the "real deal"-ness of Hanifin, really accelerates the possibility of such a move. (Without those two, I wouldn't even sniff around this Faulk trade idea).

4. I really don't want to trade Pesce and I would never  trade Slavin. Plus, their return is probably nowhere near their value. If you go down the list, who is potentially going to bring back that at least near-elite forward? Murphy? Hainsey? Wiz? M. Jordan? If we are going to get what we need in this way, we would have to probably (speculating here) move either Fleury (for a highly ranked prospect), or Faulk.

5. Not sure Faulk's trade value will ever be higher. It could be, but he could either regress (those pp shots are not going in lately), or stay flat. But now he's a young All Star with huge promise. (granted, he could become a franchise D man, but we are talking about getting a Franchise 1C here).

 

I use 65 points as sort of a rough cut-off for elite. Of course that term is always relative to "how" elite you're talking.

 

But this year, it looks likely that there will be about 22-24 forwards that hit that 65 point mark. Less than one per team. That's pretty elite.

 

We all think about 100 points, or a ppg, but that is rarified. One player will hit 100, and about 7-8 fowards will hit 1 ppg over at lest 60 games played.

 

Draistl is already, this year, #64 in the league for forwards at .71 ppg. He is in his first full season. He is 20. He is on a terrible team. And if we also got the Oiler's pick, yes, even the #4 or #5 pick, (worst case) could be a bust, but it's all about playing the odds. And looking down the list of top scorers almost every year, the really elite ones are most often drafted by the team they are playing for. Even the Chicago's and Pittsburgh's got their studs at the top of the draft (clearly with exceptions).

 

I'll throw out one thing. If ever there were a team that might trade their pick non lottery protected, it might be the Oil. If they win again and take Matthews? There could be riots.

 

Anyway, I get why people think a Faulk trade would be a bad idea. It really could be. To me looking at the D next year, without Faulk, it is not ready for playoff prime time. Fleury and/or McKeown would be rookies or in the AHL, and getting Wiz back is still of unknown effect. This defense in two or three years without Faulk could still be awesome, but hard to see it next year. That is why in the end, I really doubt he's traded. Just hard to see any other Dman bringing back what we need.

Edited by remkin

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I wish you guys would stop quoting somebody that I have on my ignore list. It kind of makes the ignoring part hard to do.

 

I gave up on the ignore feature because of the quoting. DJHarley seems to have muted himself these days though so lol

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Now that we have a promising defense lets trade Faulk and start building it again. Not happening.

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