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2015/16 In-Season Talk

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Further to my comment in the game thread, instead of postulating Faulk for a top forward, do we begin postulating Faulk for a true starting netminder?

NO! Now I'm not against trading Faulk for a #1C type player, but not a goalie. There will be very good goalies available for trade due to the expansion draft and that will force the costs down.

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NO! Now I'm not against trading Faulk for a #1C type player, but not a goalie. There will be very good goalies available for trade due to the expansion draft and that will force the costs down.

 Can we wait that long for an expansion draft?

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Karmanos on Quebec:

 

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/hurricanes-owner-karmanos-says-absolutely-no-basis-to-quebec-relocation-rumors/

 

some excerpts:

 

“I swear to you that the team is not going to Quebec,” Karmanos told Cadorette. “I’m not saying this because I have anything against Quebec, but because we have commitments that we value (in Carolina). We have an excellent lease, I love (PNC Arena) and I am deeply committed to this market.”

 

Karmanos added there’s “absolutely no basis” for the rumors, and told Cadorette that media are the only ones asking questions about Carolina’s potential relocation. Karmanos said people are trying to make a story out of nothing, and he said he hasn’t even so much as visited Quebec since the Hurricanes played the Canadiens two years ago. Speculation, however, has been that Karmanos met with Quebecor to negotiate a potential sale. Karmanos denied that.

 

“There has been no contact with Quebecor,” Karmanos told Cadorette. “Not once! Never!”

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Sometimes life gives you a "Oh Yeah" moment followed by a gut punch. At the final home game this year the Canes had a contest for a potential $10,000.00 . Three contestants trying to shoot a puck through a small hole covering the net from about center ice. I remember the same contest from Ice Caps games and they were always interesting to watch. Unfortunately on Thursday night nobody won. 

 

And now the gut punch. In Orlando at an ECHL Solar Bears game essentially the same contest was used. This one produced a winner of $100,000.00. Amazing not only for the combination of luck and skill,  but for the amount won. 10 times the prize money at the Canes game. Did I mention the Solar Bears are an ECHL team.

 

By the way I hate spell check. It keeps changing the n to a g in gut punch....see did it again.

Edited by winger52

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Sometimes life gives you a "Oh Yeah" moment followed by a gut punch. At the final home game this year the Canes had a contest for a potential $10,000.00 . Three contestants trying to shoot a puck through a small hole covering the net from about center ice. I remember the same contest from Ice Caps games and they were always interesting to watch. Unfortunately on Thursday night nobody won. 

 

And now the gut punch. In Orlando at an ECHL Solar Bears game essentially the same contest was used. This one produced a winner of $100,000.00. Amazing not only for the combination of luck and skill,  but for the amount won. 10 times the prize money at the Canes game. Did I mention the Solar Bears are an ECHL team.

 

By the way I hate spell check. It keeps changing the n to a g in gut punch....see did it again.

 

Winger: you are getting to what I was talking about in an earlier post, that I had to delete because I "ran off the rails".  I'll try to keep it on the rails this time.

 

Basically, the whole experience at the arena has gotten cheap.   Closing many of the food and drink venues just looks bad.  Food 314 hasn't opened since the start of the year.  More surprising were the beer booths closed.

 

Many people don't care about the hats, but they matter.  The inability to get Chevy/GM on board as a sponsor is not a good sign.  Or maybe the Canes were too much a partner to the promotion and Waddell's cheapness nixed it.

 

The puck in the hole thing is usually handled by insurance.  Maybe not in this case.  Again, I'm not there at the meetings with Don, Shane and apparently Ron H.   :)  But I can envision a scenario that compares the cost of insurance (say $12k for the 100grand) versus the cost of a self-payout of a straight 10grand, with of course the obvious possibility of a failed attempt.

 

Cheap.

 

But, hey, we got emojis on a stick and an awesome hashtag.  Right.  They couldn't even do that with class.  They had to bring up the poop emoji.  Why?  Really?

Edited by wxray1

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Karmanos on Quebec:

 

 

“I swear to you that the team is not going to Quebec,” 

 

That settles it.  It's the Las Vegas Hurricanes.   No more unbalanced conferences.

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 Can we wait that long for an expansion draft?

 

The time frame is likely not going to be the same for each team and RFA goalie (or other players, too). It will depend on what the teams have to work with for cap room and other RFAs and other goalies in their organization. So, assuming that Las Vegas is given an expansion team and the expansion draft is next summer (2017) before the entry draft, then teams who decide to move their "extra" goalies will have to move them before the draft occurs. That likely means either this year at the draft to utilize any picks acquired this year, or at the trade deadline next year. However, if they wait until next year to move them, then they have to sign these RFA's and thus deal with those cap implications for the next season. Some teams will be able to do this without issue and thus may not feel the pressure to move the player without a very good deal. However, a team like the Ducks that has a lot of RFAs to sign and they are in their Cup window now may not want to invest the cap room a player like Andersen will require to only ship him out next year anyway. This gives them incentive to trade him at the draft this year so they can use the cap space to sign their other RFAs and UFAs. I'll be SHOCKED if both Andersen and Gibson are on the Ducks roster at the start of the season.

 

Other teams with similar issues will be the Wings with Mrazek, the Lightning have both Bishop and Vasilevski needing contracts for next year, and Pittsburgh with Murray next year. The lighting have less pressure than the Wings or the Pens as they could just choose to let Bishop's contract expire next year and go with the younger Vasilevski going forward, but they would still be wasting the asset by not moving him sooner than the expansion draft. My guess is that the Ducks want to keep Gibson and will move Andersen and that the Lighting will want to keep Vasilevski and move Bishop as both the younger and less expensive options for these two teams are very good, if not better than the older two goalies. For the Ducks, this will happen this year, but the Lightning could wait until next year for the right deal to be offered. The more difficult options are for the Penguins and the Wings. For the Penguins, they want to keep Murray as the goalie of the future, but Fleury has a contract with a NMC so he has to be protected at the expansion draft. Couple that with his salary and he is harder to move. The Wings are in a similar position, but Howard is less attractive than Fleury but also has only a modified NTC, making him eligible for no protection at the expansion draft. My guess is that the Pens are forced to move Murray due to Fleury's contract. For the Wings, it is more unclear. I think they will look to move Howard, but if they don't get any takers on his list, then they may be persuaded to move Mrazek if they get a good offer or they can bundle Datsyuk's contract cap space if he leaves early for the KHL as is rumored right now. That could be a very savvy and attractive option for Ron to swoop in and make the Wings an offer. 

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That settles it.  It's the Las Vegas Hurricanes.   No more unbalanced conferences.

 

Did you intend for that name to be the perfect summary of the chances of a Canes relocation before expansion?

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The time frame is likely not going to be the same for each team and RFA goalie (or other players, too). It will depend on what the teams have to work with for cap room and other RFAs and other goalies in their organization. So, assuming that Las Vegas is given an expansion team and the expansion draft is next summer (2017) before the entry draft, then teams who decide to move their "extra" goalies will have to move them before the draft occurs. That likely means either this year at the draft to utilize any picks acquired this year, or at the trade deadline next year. However, if they wait until next year to move them, then they have to sign these RFA's and thus deal with those cap implications for the next season. Some teams will be able to do this without issue and thus may not feel the pressure to move the player without a very good deal. However, a team like the Ducks that has a lot of RFAs to sign and they are in their Cup window now may not want to invest the cap room a player like Andersen will require to only ship him out next year anyway. This gives them incentive to trade him at the draft this year so they can use the cap space to sign their other RFAs and UFAs. I'll be SHOCKED if both Andersen and Gibson are on the Ducks roster at the start of the season.

 

Other teams with similar issues will be the Wings with Mrazek, the Lightning have both Bishop and Vasilevski needing contracts for next year, and Pittsburgh with Murray next year. The lighting have less pressure than the Wings or the Pens as they could just choose to let Bishop's contract expire next year and go with the younger Vasilevski going forward, but they would still be wasting the asset by not moving him sooner than the expansion draft. My guess is that the Ducks want to keep Gibson and will move Andersen and that the Lighting will want to keep Vasilevski and move Bishop as both the younger and less expensive options for these two teams are very good, if not better than the older two goalies. For the Ducks, this will happen this year, but the Lightning could wait until next year for the right deal to be offered. The more difficult options are for the Penguins and the Wings. For the Penguins, they want to keep Murray as the goalie of the future, but Fleury has a contract with a NMC so he has to be protected at the expansion draft. Couple that with his salary and he is harder to move. The Wings are in a similar position, but Howard is less attractive than Fleury but also has only a modified NTC, making him eligible for no protection at the expansion draft. My guess is that the Pens are forced to move Murray due to Fleury's contract. For the Wings, it is more unclear. I think they will look to move Howard, but if they don't get any takers on his list, then they may be persuaded to move Mrazek if they get a good offer or they can bundle Datsyuk's contract cap space if he leaves early for the KHL as is rumored right now. That could be a very savvy and attractive option for Ron to swoop in and make the Wings an offer. 

Great post MJB, loaded with good info. Thanks.

 

I agree it's time to focus on goaltending. We're supposedly building from the crease out, but there's no denying the crease is a problem. I like both our guys, but this isn't a personality contest. It's time to win hockey games; everybody on the roster has shown they're committed to playing the system, and we saw how close that got us this year, despite a terrible start, moving three vets and middling goaltending.

 

I've been saying we need two good wingers. I'm rethinking that. Get us one, get a #1 goalie, and let's turn our prospects, including those we acquired for our UFAs, loose, to compete for the other open slot in the top three lines.

 

And if we're really serious about cutting non-essential costs, FIRE DON WADDELL. RIGHT. THE F. NOW.  

Edited by top-shelf-1

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;

 

And if we're really interested in saving money on non-essential items, FIRE DON WADDELL. RIGHT. THE F. NOW.

 

 

despite having a competitive team, the Canes  are last in attendance.

 

 

WA-dul's pricing plan must be the cause

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I still think we need two forwards. We did not make the playoffs with E. and Versteeg. Neither set the world on fire, but both were basically 50 point guys. I love the potential in Aho, PDG, Rask (who has basically shown it), and Lindholm, especially, but we need at least one veteran 50 point, Versteeg-type (and by that I mean skilled, proven, and ideally playmaking), and ideally a semi proven prospect such as say Drouin (not trying to re-igninte that whole thing, but as an example). The we also need (IMO) to move up the draft board and try for Mr. Elite forward.

Edited by remkin

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I have opined now on serveral occasions, see last GDT, that Ward-Lack is not enough. Ward has shown himself over many years in many situations to be a very skilled, posittionally sound goalie, who handles the puck well, and looks good 90% of the time. But has major lapses and some of the ugliest soft goals imaginable. He is, to coin a phrase, "at best" a  .910 goalie over a season. 

 

"But", some might say, "he's been so good for stretches, maybe he will put it together. Just one more chance at a reasonable salary?"

 

To which I now say, "It is possible that there is not a goalie in the history of the NHL that has had more chances, and been given more benefits of the doubt, and been rolled out for the majority of starts even after playing badly." This guy was given at least 3 YEARS after the cup to be mediocre. Then kept getting the net due to weak back ups, then even playing terrible kept getting rolled out there (as Khudobin was ugly), then, when he "found his game", he was still very mediocre, but Lack was worse, so once again we ride Ward. Then, even after a modest "Wardissance" he has zero trade value, and a save % below the league average for two straight years.

 

Right now, the center mass: average at b#@$ NHL number one goalie has a save % of .920.

Cam: .909. Of course Eddie is worse: .903. BUT Eddie has gotten more garbage starts, and is still much earlier in his career.

 

Even after two years of "better Cam", he averages #35 and #23 in the NHL making him the #30 goalie in the league over the past 2 years.

 

BTW, Eddie Lack was #14 in the NHL in save percentage, LAST SEASON at .923.

Cam has hit that mark once, in 10 years, his lone really good season: 2010-11

 

Yet, again, Cam gets rolled out again and again. Roll Eddie for awhile? Nope.

 

Much like this team just needed to get past Eric, the team needs to get past Cam to find the next guy.

 

 

This team is going places, but the question is how fast? Draft picks from this year, even stellar ones will impact in 2-3 years at best. Maybe RF can work some trade and UFA magic, and our D will be solid. But this is not a team so stacked that next year's Canes will be a good bet to be playoff bound with the worst #1 goalie in the league.

 

We don't need Cary Price, but we need more than Cam Ward.

Edited by remkin

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Agreed, good post MinJaBen.  I'll pass on Howard, though (which takes nothing away from the gist of your post).  I took a quick look at his stats and I was surprised how much similarity there is to Ward.

 

                      Howard     Ward

Height              6'1"         6"1"

Age                  32          32

2016 save%   .906       .909

2015 save%   .910       .910

2016 GAA       2.82       2.41

2015 GAA       2.44       2.40

 

And this is from TheHockeyNews' scouting report on Howard "Occasional lapses in concentration often lead to bad goals at inopportune times. Has consistency issues that prevent him from joining the ranks of the league's elite goalkeepers."  THAT sounds way too familiar.

 

Oh, and after shooting Ward, Booth ran from a theatre to a warehouse; after shooting Howard, Oswald ran from a warehouse to a theatre.  Uh, wait, I think that's from something else . . .

Edited by LakeLivin

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I think most fans would like to see Waddell go. He is supposedly the architect of the 40% price increase last year coming off a 71 point season. Who would not have seen that as an attendance killer? Plus he is still sees as the Thrashers' Angel of Death. Lastly, the new pricing was supposed to go along with low priced tickets not being dumped on the secondary market. When I have looked on a popular site for secondary ticket sales, I have still seen 1000+ tickets for many games at prices well below even STH prices. And as mentioned many times here, the "in-game experience" is non-existent. So what has he done to make the team stronger and more sustainable in this market?

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I think most fans would like to see Waddell go. He is supposedly the architect of the 40% price increase last year coming off a 71 point season. Who would not have seen that as an attendance killer? Plus he is still sees as the Thrashers' Angel of Death. Lastly, the new pricing was supposed to go along with low priced tickets not being dumped on the secondary market. When I have looked on a popular site for secondary ticket sales, I have still seen 1000+ tickets for many games at prices well below even STH prices. And as mentioned many times here, the "in-game experience" is non-existent. So what has he done to make the team stronger and more sustainable in this market?

 

The one thing I'm trying to figure out, which is tough from halfway across the country, is how the Hurricanes' management thinks they can control the secondary ticket market. Sure, they can control the *team's* disposal of tickets, but there's not a darn thing they can do about STHs saying "think I'll skip this one" and putting their tickets up on one of the secondary sales sites, is there?

 

I'd hate to think that buying a season ticket comes with a threat - "don't sell individual games on a secondary market or, so help us, we'll...we'll...we'll TAKE AWAY YOUR FOOD DISCOUNT!" - but maybe it does. That'd be a definite non-starter with me - I don't like to be threatened.

 

IMO, the product on the ice has improved with little effect on the number of butts in the seats, from what I gather from posts here; this has to tell anyone with a basic level of intelligence that there are other factors....

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JonKerfoot,

 

I will say that the product on the ice has improved, but not enough to get attendance up. This is not to disagree with the thesis that other factors are in play. But this is now a team of chronic failure. And while this year has shown signs, and the 'already intense and most knowledgeable fans", like those here, can see the sculpture taking form, this team missed again. 

 

We need a team to start strong. The years we did better, the team was in the game and built. And as the year went on, the attendance built. 

 

We need a star. We now have Skinner, but we need some flash up front, and we need to start winning early and SIT in a playoff spot for most of the year. Then attendance will build. 

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Agreed, good post MinJaBen.  I'll pass on Howard, though (which takes nothing away from the gist of your post).  I took a quick look at his stats and I was surprised how much similarity there is to Ward.

 

                      Howard     Ward

Height              6'1"         6"1"

Age                  32          32

2016 save%   .906       .909

2015 save%   .910       .910

2016 GAA       2.82       2.41

2015 GAA       2.44       2.40

 

And this is from TheHockeyNews' scouting report on Howard "Occasional lapses in concentration often lead to bad goals at inopportune times. Has consistency issues that prevent him from joining the ranks of the league's elite goalkeepers."  THAT sounds way too familiar.

 

Oh, and after shooting Ward, Booth ran from a theatre to a warehouse; after shooting Howard, Oswald ran from a warehouse to a theatre.  Uh, wait, I think that's from something else . . .

 

Yeah, I agree on the Howard front...not a target for us, I hope. Frankly, I'd put Mrazek a few down any list of targets as well. Based on a single team being invited to expand next year and who I think they might target at goalie if that were to happen, plus UFAs, my goalie target list would look like this:

 

  1. Andersen: I think he is the most available of those under contract, extremely good, and could be a solution for almost a decade. Will cost some futures, but probably a reasonable 2nd plus could get it done. Then probably looking at a $5.5M for 5 contract. That works for our cap situation.
  2. Murray: I think he is very good, and will need to be traded, but it will cost more futures. Biggest issue is I don't know if JR will play ball with us or completely spurn us due to being "pushed out".
  3. Bishop: Great goalie. But a bit older than the others and will be very expensive as he is an UFA next year. Also, will cost a bunch in futures.
  4. Mrazek: A very good goalie. The better of the two in Detroit, so he may not be available unless Detroit gets desperate, but he had a bit of a rough patch lately. Could be "packaged" with Datsyuk's contract if he leaves which we could handle.
  5. Reimer: He was up and down with the Leafs...but they were terrible, so hard to tell what that means. He's looked very good with the Sharks. Rumored he is looking for $6M and 6 years, so I'm not sure I'd bite on him at first.

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  1. Reimer: He was up and down with the Leafs...but they were terrible, so hard to tell what that means. He's looked very good with the Sharks. Rumored he is looking for $6M and 6 years, so I'm not sure I'd bite on him at first.

 

 

 

is this not Ward's current asking price

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. . .

  1. Andersen: I think he is the most available of those under contract, extremely good, and could be a solution for almost a decade. Will cost some futures, but probably a reasonable 2nd plus could get it done. Then probably looking at a $5.5M for 5 contract. That works for our cap situation.
  2. Murray: I think he is very good, and will need to be traded, but it will cost more futures. Biggest issue is I don't know if JR will play ball with us or completely spurn us due to being "pushed out".
  3. Bishop: Great goalie. But a bit older than the others and will be very expensive as he is an UFA next year. Also, will cost a bunch in futures.
  4. Mrazek: A very good goalie. The better of the two in Detroit, so he may not be available unless Detroit gets desperate, but he had a bit of a rough patch lately. Could be "packaged" with Datsyuk's contract if he leaves which we could handle.
  5. Reimer: He was up and down with the Leafs...but they were terrible, so hard to tell what that means. He's looked very good with the Sharks. Rumored he is looking for $6M and 6 years, so I'm not sure I'd bite on him at first.

 

 

I'd think a much bigger issue would be that if JR does need to deal Murray, he won't want to compete against him within the conference, let alone within the division. 

Edited by LakeLivin

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We ended the season much like we started it but it was a fun ride in-between. Never look back. 

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Well, here we are. No more meaningful Canes hockey until October.  A lot of ups-and-downs this season.  It was both painful and enjoyable.  I got to head down and see more Canes games at PNC that I thought I would. I love the youth movement going on and I hope this will get us back to where we need to be. Patience and growth pains, but I believe we're on the right track and I trust Ronnie Francis knows what he's doing.

Edited by surfzone365

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Well, here we are. No more meaningful Canes hockey until October.  A lot of ups-and-downs this season.  It was both painful and enjoyable.  I got to head down and see more Canes games at PNC that I thought I would. I love the youth movement going on and I hope this will get us back to where we need to be. Patience and growth pains, but I believe we're on the right track and I trust Ronnie Francis knows what he's doing.

 

 

Definitely an improvement having meaningful Canes hockey through the first game of April instead of just through the middle of January.  Had we been in the Western Conference, we'd have been one point out of the playoffs.  Definitely on the right track.  If RF can figure out the goaltending situation and bring in a few forward upgrades and Peters can find a way to cut down on Faulk and Hainsey's defensive snafu's (yes, i said it) and the perennial slow October, i think meaningful Canes hockey will go even longer next year.

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Definitely an improvement having meaningful Canes hockey through the first game of April instead of just through the middle of January.  Had we been in the Western Conference, we'd have been one point out of the playoffs.  Definitely on the right track.  If RF can figure out the goaltending situation and bring in a few forward upgrades and Peters can find a way to cut down on Faulk and Hainsey's defensive snafu's (yes, i said it) and the perennial slow October, i think meaningful Canes hockey will go even longer next year.

Agreed.  This is one of the few times I actually feel we got something going after a non-playoff season.  The Tampa Bay Lightning got back to being a contender with their youth movement - of course they had some savvy veterans like Stamkos to build around.  Hoping for a similar situation here.  In addition to Faulk and Hainsey, I believe Nestrasil and Nordstrom will continue to be solid.

 

Goal-tending is the trick here.  Much debate has been made over this, especially Wardo.  As much as I love Wardo and think he does have some gas left in the tank, management would be foolish to keep their heads in the sand over bolstering the slot between the pipes.  I was familiar with Eddie Lack before he came to the Canes.  He was solid for the Canucks, and I think he has proven himself worthy of at least a solid backup.  Yes, this position needs some attention no doubt.  Excited about next year though.

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