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2015/16 In-Season Talk

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Knowing this probably crosses the boundary into the Great Staal Debate thread, but since not many people seem to be inclined to post, I'll just throw it out there.

 

I think Eric is gone at some point this season.  I really do.  And before the NTC is waived around, I think it will be a mutal parting of the ways. I've felt that way for quite some time.

 

If that occurs, I just don't see how you keep Jordan on the team, or that he would even want to stay here anyway.

And you know coastal, I don't think that would necessarily be the case if he'd come out in every game like he did in Detroit.

 

Even if the team's record were the same, I have to think that it is his - what to call it? "unwillingness" seems unkind, but what other word applies? certainly not "inability," because if Friday showed nothing else, it showed that the extra gear is clearly still there - but whatever word we pick, there is something preventing him from coming out and forcing the issue on a night-in, night-out basis.

 

I have to think that, for a guy like Ronnie who did that every night, and with Roddy (who did also) still here, that is at the bottom of everything, in terms of the org's point of view.

 

I have tried to look at it from Eric's point of view, and always struggle. He got everything he wanted, probably more than he ever dreamed of. He has shown that he is capable of making those around him better; he just did it Friday with McGinn and Steegs. Everybody raved about Skinner's pass to set up Versteeg, but the key to that play was Eric's cycling it to Skinner. From the half wall he could see what their D couldn't, that Skinner had slipped behind the cage and that Steegs was barreling down the slot.

 

It's just been so inexplicable for so long. I just don't get it.

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The scary part is that the length of rebuild will be directly relational to how successful of a trade RF can pull off. If it's a pick dump, good lord we'll be doing this losing song and dance for at least 3 more years.

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Knowing this probably crosses the boundary into the Great Staal Debate thread, but since not many people seem to be inclined to post, I'll just throw it out there.

I think Eric is gone at some point this season. I really do. And before the NTC is waived around, I think it will be a mutal parting of the ways. I've felt that way for quite some time.

If that occurs, I just don't see how you keep Jordan on the team, or that he would even want to stay here anyway.

I agree. We'll be in a good position if we play our cards right. The big 3 up-coming UFA's are Staal, Backes, and Stamkos, and the other two aren't going to be moved during the season. Staal's going to be the hottest commodity at trade deadline time, and teams that are under pressure to win now could come off good picks/prospects for him.

Staal has actually come out strong this season. Even in our losses, he's throwing pucks to the net.

We may be stuck with Jordan.

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The cold hard realty is: How often do first line 6 foot 3 centers become available during the off season? Never. If Eric would take a 4-5 year deal at 6m per, I would be happy. I just don't think this team is ready to fill Staal's shoes.

I don't see what the problem is. Like some of you said he is coming out strong and producing. He is playing with Brock McGinn and Versteeg. Versteeg is a bottom tier 2nd line forward at best on almost any other team.

We all knew this team was going to suck. Staal isn't the problem. It's the overall talent of this team. Lack of a true power forward and net presence being the key one among other things.

TLDR? You think we suck now? Wait until Staal is no longer on the team. If he wants to go then that's another topic entirely.

Edited by bluedevil58

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I agree. We'll be in a good position if we play our cards right. The big 3 up-coming UFA's are Staal, Backes, and Stamkos, and the other two aren't going to be moved during the season. Staal's going to be the hottest commodity at trade deadline time, and teams that are under pressure to win now could come off good picks/prospects for him.

Staal has actually come out strong this season. Even in our losses, he's throwing pucks to the net.

We may be stuck with Jordan.

If he is moved before Christmas, it almost certainly would be a "change of scene" kind of trade (I think Rem alluded to this recently, referencing the now-closed door that was last season's much-rumored Kessel for Staal deal). A situation where both teams feel the players will benefit from a fresh start, and both orgs are thinking that if everything works just right, they could still sneak into the post season.

 

I think that is the worst possible deal we could make, and that it would be taking a huge gamble, for a franchise that cannot afford to gamble any more. We need sure things, or at least the surest things we can get. And BP and RF don't strike me as the gambling type, at least not (even close to) the way JR was.

 

Yes, we've gotten off to a horrid start. Yes, we are in a hole, no question about it. But even with the two terrible nights (FL and Wash) we could just as easily be 3-2 right now. It's waaaaaay too early to conclude that we're dead and buried, IMO, and I'd be surprised if Ronnie has reached that conclusion yet.

 

I believe the plan is to see where we stand at Thanksgiving. Then at Christmas. Then, at the TD.  Our best chance of getting a great return for Eric is at the deadline, not in October. And, unlikely as it seems at the moment, if we're in a playoff spot at the TD, we may not move him at all.

 

As for coming out strong, I must respectfully disagree.

 

In a contract year after several years of diminishing performance, I doubt anything less than the effort Eric gave in Detroit is going to be seen as "strong" by GMRF. Throwing pucks on net is fine, but in terms of what others at Eric's pay grade around the league do on a nightly basis, we're not getting what we are paying for: A game-changing, elite player who makes those around him better, is able to dictate play, and who, as Captain, takes on-ice responsibility for leading the team to victory. When that Eric shows up, we win hockey games. Nothing would make me happier than seeing that Eric every time he laces up the skates.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Just to chime in on Staal's play so far, i think he has actually been very good so far.  Unfortunately all he can really do with the talent level on his line is power down the wing and get off a shot while being double teamed, or cycle behind the net and battle while being triple teamed.  If he can start gellin with a couple wingers than I think he looks strong and healthy and could keep up a PPG pace. Right now there is no open ice or any pretty passes coming his way, and when he makes the pretty passes they are often missed out front by lesser skilled guys.  Versteeg is really trying and working hard but his skill level is not high enough for first line.  Thats not to say that Staal, Mcginn, Versteeg couldn't find some chemistry and get things going but so far its been hit or miss.

It's hard to say whether or not he would wave his NTC and leave his brother and family behind in Raleigh.  However, he's gotta be sick of losing and being blamed for it year after year so maybe he goes.  I can't imagine  Jordan Staal without big bro around is going to be very healthy for our locker room.  It's like worst case scenario coming true  when he left his stanley cup winning team to come here.  "We fail and one of us gets traded"  I think he would have to go too or our negative vibe locker room gets worse. . 

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Personally, I think this is Justin Faulk's team going forward.

 

That's about it.  That's my opinion, and I have no energy to discuss the Staal's, other than what magic GMRF can do to put this team on the right track sooner than later in that particular trade scenario (s).

 

Just look at the marketing.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Shelf, I agree that it's way too early to complete concede, but I think the writing's finally on the wall for this team.  Except for the win against Detroit, things are going status quo for this team.  Either they don't play the full 60, can't finish, or just get flat out beat.  Except this time, we can't use the injury excuse.  Both Staals are healthy, as is Skinner.  Wiz has been out, but I don't think that changes the overall outcome of our games.

 

We have to think about moving on, and this is really the perfect time to do it.  Realistically, I don't see how this team can be a championship caliber team with its core.  They're all inconsistent.  In fairness, they haven't gotten a huge quality of talent from upper management, but that's no excuse.  And we don't have the assets that we can afford to give up in order to upgrade the roster through trades, and the UFA's aren't knocking at our door.  Imo, trading Eric is the only thing holding this team back from a full rebuild.

 

If we were to trade Eric, we'll probably be dead last or very close to it, but trading him makes the most sense out of any scenario I can think of.  He'd serve the most purpose on a contender, his contract's expiring, we could eat as much of his remaining contract as a contending team needs, and there is a possibility he could return to the team in the offseason.

 

Some would see this as tanking for Matthews, which it would put us in a decent spot to land him, but I see it as utilizing your resources.  Getting the chance to draft 1st overall, getting another 1st rounder and a decent prospect is nothing to scoff at.

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Shelf, I agree that it's way too early to complete concede, but I think the writing's finally on the wall for this team.  Except for the win against Detroit, things are going status quo for this team.  Either they don't play the full 60, can't finish, or just get flat out beat.  Except this time, we can't use the injury excuse.  Both Staals are healthy, as is Skinner.  Wiz has been out, but I don't think that changes the overall outcome of our games.

 

We have to think about moving on, and this is really the perfect time to do it.  Realistically, I don't see how this team can be a championship caliber team with its core.  They're all inconsistent.  In fairness, they haven't gotten a huge quality of talent from upper management, but that's no excuse.  And we don't have the assets that we can afford to give up in order to upgrade the roster through trades, and the UFA's aren't knocking at our door.  Imo, trading Eric is the only thing holding this team back from a full rebuild.

 

If we were to trade Eric, we'll probably be dead last or very close to it, but trading him makes the most sense out of any scenario I can think of.  He'd serve the most purpose on a contender, his contract's expiring, we could eat as much of his remaining contract as a contending team needs, and there is a possibility he could return to the team in the offseason.

 

Some would see this as tanking for Matthews, which it would put us in a decent spot to land him, but I see it as utilizing your resources.  Getting the chance to draft 1st overall, getting another 1st rounder and a decent prospect is nothing to scoff at.

Sadly, I have to agree. Something is needed to put every guy on this team on notice and it's tough to imagine a clearer message than trading away the Captain.

 

But just for S&Gs (if you know what I mean) what happens if we wake up on this coming road trip, and start playing consistently good hockey? Again, two of those four losses could, with a Detroit-style, full-team game, have gone in the win column. I'm not making any excuses for losing them, but what if we turn that corner, start scoring PP goals and wind up in the playoff hunt? If that happens (and no, I'm not holding my breath), doesn't it suddenly become very difficult to trade Eric (or anybody else) while the season is on?

 

I will disagree on one point, however: If/when Eric goes, I don't see any circumstance under which RF ever brings him back.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Im tired of the Jekyll and Hyde team, 4 goals one night then 8 games of making back up goalies look great. THEN..Never hit anyone, no standing up for your team mates, the same ole after game interviews that say we need to play better spill, the coach (BP) responds " OH BOY" trying to find something positive to say...and so on... Sick of it.. Whether the powers to be buy, trade, sell or just let players walk away, its time for a change, a real change that sends a message to the fans that someone up top (GMRF) (PK) is sick of losing and the days of CANDY CANES are over... Do something!!!!  Watching some kids play hard and lose would be easier on game night than what we are getting now...  

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Hockey is a long season, I'm choosing to wait until mid November to make my decision on whether or not we "tank" for Matthews and trade away Staal.  Things could still come together.  Probably won't but , hey, a lot of teams start out rough their first 5,10,20 games and than pull together and start winning consistently.  It's all the hope we have left as Canes fans so I'm choosing to wait a little while longer before I completely dismantle this team and accept we are doomed for bottom 5 again. My hope is not high but my fingers are crossed. Of course 5 games out west is almost guaranteed negative results, but if we can get 2-2-1 or something like that than we're not in that bad of a spot to turn things around in November. 

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i really don't understand the feelings that the team will be in for long term suck if Eric is gone. I can see more ice time for some newbies to develop. We may actually find some true leaders who have been overshadowed. Possibly the return may excite the team to better than what we have now. Sometimes the reaper can be your friend. Consistency may be the future fruit of our turmoil .

Edited by winger52

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Personally, I think this is Justin Faulk's team going forward.

 

That's about it.  That's my opinion, and I have no energy to discuss the Staal's, other than what magic GMRF can do to put this team on the right track sooner than later in that particular trade scenario (s).

 

Just look at the marketing.

 

I must agree with you, Coastal. The energy to discuss this is more than the energy I see E.Staal provide in the games. Ronnie and Peter's are working with what they have and trying to make the whole team work together.

 

If they see something I don't, then as long as I see energy and production on the ice, I will agree with them. But for now, my biggest issue is lack of energy, lack of physical play, and lack of heart.

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E's biggest sin is he hasn't been able to bring us back to the playoffs. I think this season, in fact the last few seasons, he has been skating well, He isn't dogging it. This season he has been passing well, engaging along the boards and going to the front of the net. The only line that has been scoring is his line. Age seems to have taken a toll and he may not be the player he once was yet he is still pretty good.

 

But the time to move on may have come. Replacing him won't be easy but will it get any easier if we wait.

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I guess in a way this should move the the Staal debate thread, but to be honest, we really only have one active thread anyway, and it also touches on the bigger issue of how to fix this team so....

 

A few points since I was part of igniting this again:

 

1. For me it is no longer just about this season. Ever since I went out on the Island for this team, back when a 60 point Semin and others at their 85% level really should have spelled playoffs, and frankly even before that, we have seen this group simply unable to get it done. This look great one night, then absolutely unbearably horrid the next, then put 50 shots into the crest, carry the play and lose 4-2 the next, has been going on for more than a couple of years.

 

So why the quick trigger? Because knowing what happened last year, 0-8 out of the shoot, if ever there should be a team motivated to put it all out there every night at least at the start, its this team.

 

Now, I have couched every post with "if this continues". I concede and deeply hope that it suddenly clicks and we get to better hockey. We're really going to need a winning streak, and that could happen. But this Jekyl and Hyde thing has been around for several years. And as I posted last time, nearly every NHL team just lays down about 1 every 8-10 games. But we do it more. And then we don't close out the other games. I am increasinly of the opinion that those nights we're on fire is mostly due to the other team not showing up or playing down to us.

 

2. Is Eric to blame? I frankly don't know. I don't know what the team thinks of his leadership. I don't know if his great play one night, and seemingly absent play the next is team's double teaming him (but then why doesn't every team just do that), or not. But Eric has been the face of the franchise, star of the team and now Captain for a lot of futility and now 4 coaches.

 

Again, I'm still open to him staying on w/ a smaller paycheck and probably sliding his C to an A. We would be a better team if we could find another star forward and have E as a strong complimentary piece.

 

3. The NTC. I still think it's not an issue until it is. So long as A.Eric is ready to move and B. He likes the team we are moving him to, it will be no big deal (though if it is a sign and trade, or trade and sign and he insists on a NTC in his new deal it still could be). But if Eric doesn't want to go to say Edmonton. Or if he really doesn't feel like moving this year? It will be a massive deal. I hope not if it comes to that because, as I've said and agree w/Legend, if we lose E we must get return.

 

4. I'm not sure that a trade deadline deal is the best return. I've heard from some experts that a trade mid season gives more return. Ultimately the return will go up if E is either a sign and trade or a trade w/ agreed terms to sign for the new team. This would require E to be completely on board with the idea and his new destination.

 

In general, waiting until Thanksgiving is the plan. But if this team does not turn this current trend around, I'm not sure you wait, especially if E is ready for change and a good deal is there.

 

I still offer E the chance to stay at say $6 mill/year, 4 years, no NTC, and change the C at the end of the year. But I'm not sure he takes that.

 

I still say if I'm Eric, I wonder why I would stay outside of liking the area and his brother. Versteeg is a nice player, but really a second liner. How is this team going to come up with an elite winger for him to play with? The draft? Wait 2-3 years for that guy. People love to throw around the "great players make those around them better". But better is relative. I mean Chad LaRose did basically put up 20 goals. There is equally the example of great players that never got any real quality support and never realized their potential.

 

I can't help but think back to when Semin first got here and was playing elite for that window during the lockout. E was over a ppg.

 

Anyway, we WILL be a worse team immediately upon his departure. But at some point we may have to take our medicine. An E trade should bring a decent top 6 foward and a first rounder. A Ward trade? Not sure, but if his game picks up, maybe a first rounder. That would be 4 first rounders next year.

 

I hold out hope for this year. But it will have to come fast. Few teams are in a trading mood this time of year anyways, and we need to give Staal more than 5 games, but if it keeps up like this? Sooner than later.

Edited by remkin

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Im tired of the Jekyll and Hyde team, 4 goals one night then 8 games of making back up goalies look great. THEN..Never hit anyone, no standing up for your team mates, the same ole after game interviews that say we need to play better spill, the coach (BP) responds " OH BOY" trying to find something positive to say...and so on... Sick of it.. Whether the powers to be buy, trade, sell or just let players walk away, its time for a change, a real change that sends a message to the fans that someone up top (GMRF) (PK) is sick of losing and the days of CANDY CANES are over... Do something!!!!  Watching some kids play hard and lose would be easier on game night than what we are getting now...

This is pretty much exactly what I said..........two years ago.

The only difference is now we are in a better position to make real changes.

I've been saying for a long time that we just need to get through this season to start making real changes. Hopefully they happen, as I've been ready for a full rebuild for quite some time. I have no faith in certain core/veteran players that I feel have lingered for far too long.

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If E. gets two points Wed.night than he's a PPG player.  Right now he's .8ppg and he's also a plus 1 now.  Just saying.  I don't think he's been great, but he's been good and looks strong.  Lets see what happens next few games.   

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Been our problem for years now. No respect for teammates. Someone other than Gerbe or Faulk needs to step up.

 

I've been out of town, but the "got your teammates back" issue re-raised a question I had about the Faulk - Laich fight that I was just going to let slide.  Did anyone who was there actually see how the fight started? Here's what I read: Oshie had a questionable hit on Nordstrom.  Brad Malone went after Oshie;  Laich intervened and everyone on the ice paired off.  Faulk and Laich ended up together and a brief fight broke out with Faulk throwing Laich to the ice and landing a good shot on the way down.  

 

The reason I ask is that it if it was Laich that initiated the actual fight once they were paired off (and keep in mind that apparently it was Laich who was aggressively involved in the kerfuffle up to that point, not Faulk), did Faulk really have any choice? Wouldn't any other Cane out there have done the same thing?

 

The question comes to mind because I haven't seen Faulk specifically come to the aid of a teammate over the past 2 full seasons I've been following the team closely (other than the generic pairing up when something develops).  He's been given full credit for defending a teammate in the Washington incident, but was it any more than the luck of the draw with him being paired up with Laich? That's a genuine question, I'm not suggesting that Faulk didn't intentionally step up, just that it's a possibility and I just don't know.  I know that Malone stepped up (and if he hadn't, the Faulk -Laich fight probably wouldn't have happened).

 

To me it's an important point because the only Canes I recall protecting a teammate over the past 2 years are:

Gerbe: always

Malone: always

Gleason:

Hainsey: one incident last year when someone hit Ward(?) and he immediately went after the guy

E: once, and that was protecting his brother (I did like the slap shot on Phaneuf, though :thumbsup:)  

Faulk: once (maybe), with Laich

 

 

 

edit: I've missed more games than I've seen so far, but I'd bet Versteeg is very "responsible" when it comes to sticking up for his teammates.

Edited by LakeLivin

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Faulk should not ever get into a fight.  Just like Eric Staal should never get into a fight.  We can't risk either breaking their hand.  Therefore, I feel that your observations are a bit skewed when determining overall team character.

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At practice today

 

Michael Smith @MSmithCanes 32m32 minutes ago

Riley Nash out of the yellow, no-contact sweater today at #Canes practice. Still no Joakim Nordstrom.

#Canes operating with same lines, so: Versteeg-E. Staal-McGinn Gerbe-J. Staal-Nestrasil Skinner-Rask-Lindholm Malone-McClement-Terry

Also same D-pairs for #Canes since only 6 on ice. Hainsey-Faulk Liles-Jordan Hanifin-Murphy

 

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Faulk should not ever get into a fight.  Just like Eric Staal should never get into a fight.  We can't risk either breaking their hand.  Therefore, I feel that your observations are a bit skewed when determining overall team character.

 

Oh, I mostly agree. I don't know that I'd use the word "ever", but we're on the same page on this one.  I definitely think Faulk did the smart thing by ending the fight with Laich so quickly by throwing him to the ice. If you look back over my post I think you'll see that I didn't make any judgements (at least I tried not to); I just reported my observations over the past 2 years.    

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We all know Eric is the kind of captain that is a "Let my play on the ice speak for itself."  Truth be told, he does a lot defensively as well that most here tend to overlook.  I just think that if he walks or is traded it is going to be one of those "What were we thinking?" moments as we try to draft and develop a a true 1st liner center over the next 5 years and watch as the team proceeds to miss the playoffs during that development time period.

 

As of now, we have nobody that could take on 1st line duties and put up the numbers that Eric can put up on a consistent basis.  If we had a 2nd line center who is developing and able to put up 50 points consistently then I might be more inclined to think we could be ok.  But we don't have that yet.  We might have it but until the stat sheets say we do we don't.

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