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2015/16 In-Season Talk

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I have been a long time defender of Eric, and I may be overreacting. I'm just so so tired of the way the team performs over at least 3 different coaches. Then we doubled down on the Staal plan with Jordan, who has simply not lived up to his paycheck either.

 

I completely agree with the sentiment that he will be hard to replace. Truely effective first line centers are very hard to find and teams do spend years trying to aquire one. (See Arizona).

 

At the end of the day in most of my posts over the last year or so, I keep hoping we can re-sign him at a more reasonable contract. Also, I feel that if we can get rid of the NTC, at least we can move him if we continue to stuggle.

 

I will say this. IF we can keep him w/ no NTC and more reasonable salary, it is easier to see a path to being good. One more year of struggling, maybe trade Skinner and Ward, accumulate draft picks and some key complementary pieces, and one mega draft year could do it.

 

Thing is even as a write that, I'm not sure how much I believe it. Just so much bad for so long.

Edited by remkin

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Oh, and as to our problems?  Fortunately I didn't see the Fla game. Unfortunately I did see the Caps game (but missed the Wings game).  Imo, I think it's an amalgamation of issues. But right up there, and something that makes the other issues tough to overcome, is lack of talent/ depth.  Most of our forwards are overslotted.  Nordstrom: 23yo, 57 NHL games with 1g and 6pts. Chris Terry? Even Nestrasil (who I have high hopes for), I'd like to see us in a position where we could bring him along a bit more slowly (4th line or depth fill in on higher lines as needed). And now we're looking at 21yo Brock McGinn, maybe not as a savior, but to adequately fill a top 6 NHL forward slot?  I think 1 more legitimate (maybe even marginal?) top 6 NHL forward might make a significant difference to this team.  Tlusty, Stempniak, and Boyes were all signed for less than $1m this year. Would someone like one of them have made a difference, domino-wise, to this team? I don't know, but it makes me wonder.  

 

And I disagree on Wiz going down not hurting us too much.  I just look at the impact Jordan had on a couple of our games so far.  And I'm still wondering if Murphy is going to be more "Boychuk" than "Faulk".  Plus, as others have mentioned, this team isn't exactly gritty; Wiz has some of that.        

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I dont think any one here thinks E is a bad player, just dont believe he brings his pays worth most nights.. And if a player on a team is making say 9 million and doesnt earn it, not held accountable, then how long does that take to affect the rest.. Not saying thats happening, but is it a possibility... 

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Yeah, look, I don't disagree with the overslotting thing. The only thing I sometimes wonder is why those same underslotted guys can meld together with our other guys and dominate on given nights. My theory is that we are just not playing heavy or super fast teams and or they are taking us lightly.

 

Looking at the names on the paper though, we are at least one truly elite winger away from being a much better team. I know that has been a long time theme here, but it doesn't mean it's not true. Again, when E had Whitney, Williams and career year Stillman, he produced big time. Again, when he had elite Semin, brief though it was, he produced over a ppg. He has played with the likes of Chad LaRose on his wing, and now a very promising kid in McGinn, but also one who didn't even make the team out of camp.

 

The reason I like the idea of keeping E at a more reaonsable rate, is that it would simplify things at least in theory in that we would need at least one elite winger, and one very solid top 6 winger away. I guess the thing is that we have been seeking that forever. We missed on one in the draft: Mitch Marner. Now don't get me wrong, Hanifin is the man, but we still would need to find that guy.

 

But if we move E. then we need an elite winger AND and elite center. That has not been lost on me. It's just very hard to watch this play out over and over with E in the middle of it the whole time. It will take a very cool hand to keep him on without overpaying and over NTC'ing him. Luckily Francis seems to be that.

Edited by remkin

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I dont think any one here thinks E is a bad player, just dont believe he brings his pays worth most nights.. And if a player on a team is making say 9 million and doesnt earn it, not held accountable, then how long does that take to affect the rest.. Not saying thats happening, but is it a possibility... 

 

 

So what if a healthy Eric Staal wants to stay here and be paid 6-7M per year.  Worth it then?  If Staal wants to stay here I think he needs to be kept here.  If he doesn't want to stay then that is a totally different topic.  I will go on record for saying if he wants to stay here resign him.

Edited by bluedevil58

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We were having this type of discussion last year and it seemed like there was a lot of angst about Eric. I then put up a poll asking who should be traded. I offered what seemed to be a fair return for several players. For Eric I proffered a top forward, a prospect and a first rounder. Only about 2 people voted for trading Eric Staal.

 

Just pointed out that despite some consternation we have, most fans at least then didn't want him traded.

 

Of course it is a slightly different situation now, maybe a new poll at some point....

Edited by remkin

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So what if a healthy Eric Staal wants to stay here and be paid 6-7M per year.  Worth it then?  If Staal wants to stay here I think he needs to be kept here.  If he doesn't want to stay then that is a totally different topic.  I will go on record for saying if he wants to stay here resign him.

Eric got all he wanted 10 years ago, and we made the playoffs once in the time since. I'm not suggesting that what Eric wants isn't important, but at this point, based on this team's performance under his Captaincy, what the org needs and what it can get trumps what Eric wants. It has to.

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Heard Torts on xm today, and he said that most systems were similar, and the difference between good and bad teams was winning battles and will. I guess that pretty much sums up what we are lacking. After hearing him, I'm not too sure he wouldn't have been a good choice to coach here. He sure would have demanded full effort, or some guys would be eating donuts in the pressbox.

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We were having this type of discussion last year and it seemed like there was a lot of angst about Eric. I then put up a poll asking who should be traded. I offered what seemed to be a fair return for several players. For Eric I proffered a top forward, a prospect and a first rounder. Only about 2 people voted for trading Eric Staal.

 

Just pointed out that despite some consternation we have, most fans at least then didn't want him traded.

 

Of course it is a slightly different situation now, maybe a new poll at some point....

The problem with in-season polls is that hope springs eternal. Just check out my recent post about how we're only 5 games in, we could suddenly start clicking, etc.

 

Here's what I know: If Roddy or RF were captain and facing the same situation Eric is (and whether either of those guys would ever be in this situation is debatable) we would be better than 1-4 right now. If this team was ever going to come out and play like it was possessed, this was the year. They did in NSH and barely lost. They did vs. Det and barely lost. Then they absolutely, inexplicably disappeared against FL. That is just - I'm sorry. It's nothing short of insane.

 

Yes, there are different leadership styles. But at some point in the face of constant mediocrity, every true leader's sh*t meter becomes full and they begin kicking a$$ and taking names. If Eric has read anybody (or everybody) the riot act, it hasn't worked. Which means he's lost the room. And if he has not done that yet, what is he waiting for? A new contract?

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Heard Torts on xm today, and he said that most systems were similar, and the difference between good and bad teams was winning battles and will. I guess that pretty much sums up what we are lacking. After hearing him, I'm not too sure he wouldn't have been a good choice to coach here. He sure would have demanded full effort, or some guys would be eating donuts in the pressbox.

I was dead-set against Torts coming here because I think he is certifiable. But he is absolutely right about will. In the "Great Size Debate" thread I talked about heart. Same thing and this team simply seems not to have any. 

 

I think BP is trying to instill work ethic and accountability on the team; he hit it hard after FL ("We let each other down") and voila, the next game we look like world beaters. But 24 hours later, we're back to letting each other down.

 

I'm holding onto the hope that if we see a whole lot more heart and will and hard work between now and Thanksgiving. If not, I think the big changes will begin.

 

And the clock ticks...

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I don't think you all realize how hard it is to replace a legit 1C.  You think scoring is bad now?  Just wait until Eric is gone.  The guy I want to see gone before Eric is Skinner.  The kid needs a change of scenery and here is just not working out.

Edited by bluedevil58

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The guy I want to see gone before Eric is Skinner.  The kid needs a change of scenery and here is just not working out.

I hope you're not holding your breath. RF was a big advocate for drafting Skinner, and "the kid" is 8 years younger than Eric. And his contract isn't ending.

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We were having this type of discussion last year and it seemed like there was a lot of angst about Eric. I then put up a poll asking who should be traded. I offered what seemed to be a fair return for several players. For Eric I proffered a top forward, a prospect and a first rounder. Only about 2 people voted for trading Eric Staal.

 

Just pointed out that despite some consternation we have, most fans at least then didn't want him traded.

 

Of course it is a slightly different situation now, maybe a new poll at some point....

 

So Chuck K. was on XM at 9am this morning, and just happened to hear it.

 

One thing he pointed out was that both E. and Wardo are the long-timers, and when a team is going bad -- for whatever reason -- the fans will naturally pick on the long termers.

 

I can't completely disagree.

 

They then asked about Ward-o and trades, and Chuck said that Ward wants to stay.  He also thought Ward has played well and the stats don't bear that out.

 

Then they focused on E.  Chuck didn't say anything about E. wanting to stay.  Also, he was pretty certain there was no room for E. at 9M.  So they asked him if he'll be traded.  Chuck wimped out said, "Well, there are three possibilities, x, y and z"

 

x he stays

y he is traded

z UFA

 

Thanks for the insight, Chuck!  He then went on to say "it is too early to tell which it will be."

 

So, no help from Chuck.

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So Chuck K. was on XM at 9am this morning, and just happened to hear it.

 

One thing he pointed out was that both E. and Wardo are the long-timers, and when a team is going bad -- for whatever reason -- the fans will naturally pick on the long termers.

 

I can't completely disagree.

 

They then asked about Ward-o and trades, and Chuck said that Ward wants to stay.  He also thought Ward has played well and the stats don't bear that out.

 

Then they focused on E.  Chuck didn't say anything about E. wanting to stay.  Also, he was pretty certain there was no room for E. at 9M.  So they asked him if he'll be traded.  Chuck wimped out said, "Well, there are three possibilities, x, y and z"

 

x he stays

y he is traded

z UFA

 

Thanks for the insight, Chuck!  He then went on to say "it is too early to tell which it will be."

 

So, no help from Chuck.

This is mildly surprising, because during Kaiton's Corner in the last game, CK read and answered a pretty direct fan question about E. Of course, he's a Canes employee and is I'm sure consulted on talking points before any appearance, let alone something like this on XM.

 

My sense all along has been that Cam stays, at least until we have confidence that Lack is a legit #1--and, if the deal is right, probably until the end of his career. People can blame Cam all they like, but he is very fundamentally sound and, over the years, there has been waaaaay more than a handful of performances like the one in DC, where he kept them in games until the end, and the team just gave him zero run support and finally succumbed to the inevitable defensive breakdowns.

 

Reference to those breakdowns was the most telling thing to me in BP's pre-trip jabber, which OBX linked above. He specifically said we're throwing it back at the other team and just waiting for them to come back at us, meaning we're playing "on our heels"--but then said he is happy with the pairings just as they are. He must be seeing progress he likes and believes that if we can just get over the hump of DOING SOMETHING with the puck once we get D-zone possession, we'll be okay.

 

Given that the main focus of BP's job in Detroit was PK and how quickly he established a great one here, I have to think his sense of how close our D might be to turning that corner is far more finely tuned than mine. Let's hope this road trip is where it happens.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Positioning, Positioning,  Positioning... The Caps would have a guy  sneak in, get within  15 feet  [WIDE OPEN] , and no Canes would even sniff the guy till its too late..  I dont understand, is this not practiced every day??? Do they have a brain fart... Hard on Cammer, when you are  getting just a  goal/game. This hasnt happened every game, so lets hope its not a trend. And  we   lose the cycling game, i have been saying this for years.... No used beating a   dead horse.. Long way to go, hope Nordstrom is not out long, i really like his grit the first few games... 

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This is mildly surprising, because during Kaiton's Corner in the last game, CK read and answered a pretty direct fan question about E. Of course, he's a Canes employee and is I'm sure consulted on talking points before any appearance, let alone something like this on XM.

 

Well he was pretty direct about not resigning for 9M.

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As for ME, im ready for a full blown Canes rebuild... (A new culture in Raleigh is needed) ...I would not resign E or Cam and if a 1st rounder could be had for Skins let him go.... Take the money, the picks and bring in some new faces...These guys have had their time, chances, coaches, bah.. it didnt work....

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"As they prepare to take off for a West Coast road swing, Carolina has recalled defensemen Rasmus Rissanen to shore up their roster.

Carolina, down to just six healthy defensemen after losing James Wisniewski for six months, carried rookie Brett Pesce as an extra body for its last two games before returning him to Charlotte on Sunday. Now it’s Rissanen’s turn.

The 24-year-old earned his first NHL recall late last season and appeared in six games for the Hurricanes before suffering a season-ending knee injury. Rissanen didn’t record any points during his stint but saw plenty of action, logging over 15 minutes of ice time in four of his six games."

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As for ME, im ready for a full blown Canes rebuild... (A new culture in Raleigh is needed) ...I would not resign E or Cam and if a 1st rounder could be had for Skins let him go.... Take the money, the picks and bring in some new faces...These guys have had their time, chances, coaches, bah.. it didnt work....

 

I agree.  I don't think there's ever been a team in recent memory that's had as much consistent failure with a particular core, and continually sticks with the same core.  When a particular player plays for a particular team for 10yrs, it generally means they are the best of the best, but that hasn't been the case for Eric and Cam.  We can blame our defense and our wingers all we want, but these guys haven't played well enough to earn that longevity.

 

And a full rebuild is the one thing this team has never tried.  So far this year, young players are thriving in this league, while some veteran all stars are struggling.  In a faster league, the currency seems to be youth.

 

You look at teams on the rise like Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida, Arizona, Calgary.  These are all small or smaller market teams who've learned from the Kings and Hawks.  They're drafting their way to contention/relevancy.  We already have quality young pieces in Skinner, Faulk, Hanifin, Fleury, Rask, Murphy, etc.  The next step to me, is continue to add more elite forward prospects, let keep a couple veterans around like Versteeg/Gerbe, and gain a new identity.

 

No fan base likes hearing the word rebuild, because it means your current core isn't good enough.  In the case of Carolina, the core's just not good enough, and it is improbable that the team will improve with the current system.

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I agree.  I don't think there's ever been a team in recent memory that's had as much consistent failure with a particular core, and continually sticks with the same core.  When a particular player plays for a particular team for 10yrs, it generally means they are the best of the best, but that hasn't been the case for Eric and Cam.  We can blame our defense and our wingers all we want, but these guys haven't played well enough to earn that longevity.

 

And a full rebuild is the one thing this team has never tried.  So far this year, young players are thriving in this league, while some veteran all stars are struggling.  In a faster league, the currency seems to be youth.

 

You look at teams on the rise like Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida, Arizona, Calgary.  These are all small or smaller market teams who've learned from the Kings and Hawks.  They're drafting their way to contention/relevancy.  We already have quality young pieces in Skinner, Faulk, Hanifin, Fleury, Rask, Murphy, etc.  The next step to me, is continue to add more elite forward prospects, let keep a couple veterans around like Versteeg/Gerbe, and gain a new identity.

 

No fan base likes hearing the word rebuild, because it means your current core isn't good enough.  In the case of Carolina, the core's just not good enough, and it is improbable that the team will improve with the current system.

and that is just the cold, hard truth.  Sometimes, the baby is ugly.  For the last several years, we have been nursing an ugly baby in Raleigh.  It is time to remove the common denominators for the immediate historical failures.  Until that happens, I am convinced that we will continue on the same path

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I don't understand how EDM, Buff, or FLA have the recipe of success since they continually miss the playoffs like the Canes. We all knew big changes were coming after this season. The concern is once we get the cap space, who are we going to spend that extra money on and will they want to come here. Also, can we compete our offers with other teams offers? This is going to be a major reality check come FA this year.

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I have been a "put E.Staal down" person for a long time. My personal opinion is there is only one goal left for him, being a Captain for a Stanley Cup Team. Look at his career in the NHL, draft 2nd overall, won a Stanley Cup ring, went to the All-Star games, Got Captain before he actually proved himself, won a gold medal at the Olympics, captained an All Star team, got a huge first contract. The only goal left IS captain a Stanley Cup team. The question I have is: Did he earn all these prestigious honors or were some handed to him?

 

You give a young player everything up front they may lose interest early. Has E,Staal every really had grit or heart after that first year? He plays well...when he wants to, but I think he is too easy to concede to defeat. He argues with the refs just as much as "Cry Baby" Crosby. He stood up once for a team player, his brother. He's not a fighter! So, what do we need from him if he stays?

 

My humble opinion, a no more than, $5mil / 3 yr contract, no NTC, That's it! I have said take the 'C' away, but now I say, take it away if he can't light a fire under his team. A captain is a person that talks positive, reacts positive, and plays positive. He gets doubled teamed in the corner because he's tough to handle there, but anywhere else, he plays like a 3rd liner. He's slow to get off the ice and I have only seen him mostly talk with his brother on the bench. Yes, he's getting older so it's time to act it!!

 

Yes, I am an E.Staal basher. I feel he has been given everything but doesn't bring it all. These are my personal opinions and we all have them. Some people think he's the best thing since sliced bread, others think he's a good fit, and other's think he's lazy and doesn't try. We all have opinions about the guy so does mine really matter?...NO!

 

In the end, Francis and Peter's are the ones to make the decision. They know what they want and they are working on trying to get it, either out of E.Staal or someone else. So, I am waiting on seeing what they are going to do. But, my last opinion is this...

 

It takes more than one player to make a team. It takes Team Work, it takes respect of each other, and it takes heart. Without heart, you have nothing!

 

There...I am done!   :wacko:  

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