Jump to content
The Official Site of the Carolina Hurricanes
Sign in to follow this  
top-shelf-1

The Great Cam Ward Debate Thread: Re-sign? Trade?

Recommended Posts

Other than King Henry in NY, what other goalie has had a top 5 goalie level of play consistently over a long term, high dollar deal? That's the real issue in my mind. In recent history, goalies are more likely to hit that level only for a year or two and then they come back to the pack. Tie up big dollars in a goalie on a lengthy deal, and then it's likely that you have an average $6m player.

The thing about King Henry is, he's got no crown (i.e., a Cup).

 

Defense wins the season. Goaltending wins Cups. We agree that Cam has disappointed, and that we need to see what we have in Lack. But when owners are inking guys like Ovi and Staal and Crosby and Malkin and Toews and Brown and Kopitar to the kind of deal they are, goalie pay is not on goalies or their agents - it's on owners. And if they eliminate NTCs, a whole of the "problem"- which they've created - will be solved. You can't hold a guy accountable for hie performance if you can't threaten moving him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing about King Henry is, he's got no crown (i.e., a Cup).

 

Defense wins the season. Goaltending wins Cups. We agree that Cam has disappointed, and that we need to see what we have in Lack. But when owners are inking guys like Ovi and Staal and Crosby and Malkin and Toews and Brown and Kopitar to the kind of deal they are, goalie pay is not on goalies or their agents - it's on owners. And if they eliminate NTCs, a whole of the "problem"- which they've created - will be solved. You can't hold a guy accountable for hie performance if you can't threaten moving him.

 

Who is trying to blame players or agents accountable for their contracts?  Yes, the owners created this mess, closed down the league (again) to fix it and promise us cost control on ticket prices. 

 

We have been skating Ward out to the crease most nights since 2006.  I'll leave you with this...

 

Bp39zN1IEAAuDlW.jpg

 

I've been told he's a smart guy.

Edited by super_dave_1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Bp39zN1IEAAuDlW.jpg

 

I've been told he's a smart guy.

 

Overrated, but I would give him a 3 year deal at 3M per without a NTC.  Can he play wing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who is trying to blame players or agents accountable for their contracts?  Yes, the owners created this mess, closed down the league (again) to fix it and promise us cost control on ticket prices. 

 

We have been skating Ward out to the crease most nights since 2006.  I'll leave you with this...

 

Bp39zN1IEAAuDlW.jpg

 

I've been told he's a smart guy.

One of my favorite quotes.

 

I'm glad we also agree on the source of pay/cap issues, and on the need to put Lack out there for at least as long as Cam has had.

 

My point about King Henry was this: No matter how great a goalie plays all year long, the playoffs are different. Guys who are able to raise their games to meet that challenge are - well, priceless is too strong a word. But nowhere on the ice does the difference between two otherwise evenly matched teams show up more quickly - under pressure - than in goal.

 

I'm happy to write off last night's Lackluster (sorry) performance to all of Eddie's time on the pine, and expect it'll take him a few games to find his groove. But I think that (in fairness) we have to be willing to consider that Cam's last two starts could also be related to workload. Don't get me wrong: Given the contract situation, showcasing Cam made sense, and I'm glad RF seems to have laid a by-Thanksgiving gauntlet at the feet of our two highest-paid players.

 

The only thing we seem to disagree on is this: If Eddie's work proves only to be backup quality, what then?

 

You want to throw a dart, and that's fine, and certainly an option.

 

I think the number of goalies out there with Cam's work ethic, rebound control and desire to win equals 30, and count him among them. So unless someone will trade us even-up for their number one on the basis that both need a change of scene, and if Cam will take a pay cut that reduces our total cost for goaltending, I think we can begin reducing his workload and ramping up Eddie's, while they split the workload and Cam provides valuable knowledge to Eddie about Eastern Conference shooters. I think that scenario offers the highest probability that we'll have a Steady Eddie, just as the rest of the picture begins coming together. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the number of goalies out there with Cam's work ethic, rebound control and desire to win equals 30, and count him among them.

 

So now we want the Chad LaRose of goalies.  He is top 30 in work ethic and desire to win.  Problem is, he's 59th (59...that number rings a bell) in save percentage.

 

I understand you wish to solidify a position on the team by signing a player, but I'm just not so sure he's the guy to do that.  Good think you and I aren't making these decisions.  We'll see what RF does.  I wouldn't go over 2 years at $2.5M per year, and I'm not sure I'd even be interested then unless I had exhausted all other options.  If Lack turns out to be an expensive backup, it would be even worse to end up with 2 expensive backup quality goalies.

Edited by super_dave_1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So now we want the Chad LaRose of goalies.  He is top 30 in work ethic and desire to win.  Problem is, he's 59th (59...that number rings a bell) in save percentage.

 

I understand you wish to solidify a position on the team by signing a player, but I'm just not so sure he's the guy to do that.  Good think you and I aren't making these decisions.  We'll see what RF does.  I wouldn't go over 2 years at $2.5M per year, and I'm not sure I'd even be interested then unless I had exhausted all other options.  If Lack turns out to be an expensive backup, it would be even worse to end up with 2 expensive backup quality goalies.

I think we've both made our points, but I'll respond to the LaRose comparison: When it comes to goaltending in general, it doesn't fit. Provided they did not pull a Rosie (i.e., quit for a while and have the chutzpah to think they would simply come back [*cough cough Tim Thomas cough cough*]), there have been enough goalies who have played, and played well, past the age of 30 that it is reasonable to think Cam, who has stayed fit and adapted his game to his age, can make a meaningful contribution to a team in transition.

 

The reason I think this may be the plan is based on another fact: Eddie Lack's contract takes him to age 30. With Cam extended two or (at the outside, at least of what I'd offer him) three years, we need to have our post-Eddie number one in place, too, and based on who is in the system and their current ages, we seem to have guys lined up: Tirronen (25), Altshuller and Ollsen (both 21), and Booth and Nedljkovic (18 and 19).   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My LaRose comparison was simply due to your comments on him being re-signed because he has a high compete level and stays in shape, while ignoring stats and results. Seems like the points have been made though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get both arguements, but it is at least becoming less and less likely that Cam will ever be elite. The article I posted talked about the fact that few goalies are elite enough to be worth the big money. Not that they can't contribute, but that they don't bring enough wins COMPARED to another guy who you could pay $4 million less.

 

Cam has been paid and NTC'd like an elite goalie, which he has only been twice in his career, and once was in one playoff run.

 

So now it comes down to money. If Cam will take a massive paycut and waive the NTC we are FAR better off signing him unless we are offered at least a high second rounder, but really a first rounder. If he will not, we are better off letting him go, even if he walks.

 

To me $3million is the absolute max, and I'm looking at more like $2.5 million ideally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with most of the posters regarding what they feel is a fair salary offer for both Staal and Ward. I am hesitant on keeping both even at much lower salaries. CEO's making huge dollars and then being asked to take a salary of a first line Manager and still perform to the best of their ability most likely turn down the offer and look elsewhere or accept the offer and become a disgruntled employee. I can't see either player's ego's accepting low offers.

 

motivation-office-space.png

Edited by slapshot02

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just looking at stats and noticed this.  Ward's career-best GAA in the NHL was last season's 2.40, which would put him at #29 in the league right now.  His career-best sv% is 2010-11's .923, which right now would put him tied for #22.  Career-bests, for the 6th-highest-paid in the league.  Yet he somehow proves to be utterly irreplaceable in this organization...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My only quibble realm would be that save % varies year to year AND mainly,  you really have to look at # of starts. Guys come in and rip off 5 or 10 really good games but aren't even good enough for their team to keep them up, ironically.

 

That best year, his save % of .923 was 5th best amoung goalies with at least 25 starts (or around there, I don't have time to look up).

 

I still agree with your larger point. Cam has only been even near elite twice: that magical playoff run, and 10-11. Even if you give me that, that's nowhere near enough.

Edited by remkin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't easily recall each games situation and whether our goalies were legitimately burned in those games but looking back at all our losses and saying "If the goalie had a .900 SV% would we have won?" swings 5 games thus far into the W column. Very subjective I do understand that but still......900 isn't asking much in the NHL these days. .910 seems to be the cutoff for a starting NHL goalie in this league.

 

It's time to move on and remember the good times like I do with Irbe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As just posted in the GDT. This one and the Ranger game were both winnable with decent goaltending. That would have been 3/4 wins with the 3 wins vs the three best teams in the league, and 2 on the road. Overall, lately, with the NJ exception, this team is playing much better lately, except for goaltending. 

 

I am thinking more and more that I would pay Cam less and less. He is probably nearly untradable, but is becoming almost unsignable too. I'm not even sure I go $2 million.

 

I'd keep him for now with hopes that he can raise his value by the deadline, but move him then.

Edited by remkin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can someone tell me again why we traded Dobby

 

 

Dobby was freaking terrible last year.  Not quite as bad as Ward has been this year, mind you, but man, talk about low standards...

 

Lack played well enough last night to win.  Without Ward's golden egg, Hurricanes could very well have taken that one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm having an increasingly hard time imagining any scenario where we're not unloading Eric, Cam, Murphy, M. Jordan (if that's even possible), Liles and/or Hainsey, and possibly J Staal for whatever we can get for them, A-S-A-freakin'-P.

 

Keep everybody else, including Versteeg (if possible). Along with McClement, Wiz, Gerbs and what is likely to be at least one vet coming back, and with Roddy in the room, I think we'll have enough vets in the org, and that we have increasingly adequate proof, after last night, that this team should be built around our young D and forwards.

Edited by top-shelf-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm having an increasingly hard time imagining any scenario where we're not unloading Eric, Cam, Murphy, M. Jordan (if that's even possible), Liles and/or Hainsey, and possibly J Staal for whatever we can get for them, A-S-A-freakin'-P.

 

 

As long as Peters will stop riding the Cam horse.  When he finally decides to utilize Lack, Ward can go.  As long as he continues to rely on Ward, i don't see it happening.

 

I repeat myself when i'm distressed...

I repeat myself when i'm distressed...

I repeat myself when i'm distressed...

I repeat...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After last night's performance, I think re-sign or trade is out of the question and the answer is "place next to the street with a $20 bill pinned to his shirt and hope somebody picks him up".

Too harsh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hard to believe even a few short years ago Ward was invited to Team Canada's Olympic summer camp and also played at the Worlds.  He has fallen way off.  Team Canada doesn't even have him on their radar anymore.  Its simply time.  Don't wait and let him walk as an UFA.  Just try and flog him for whatever you can get - maybe a depth player like a Versteeg and a 2nd round pick.  I can't see that he is worth much more than that.  Its time for Peters like some others have said here to give Eddie a stretch of 7-10 straight games, see what you got before making a final decision on Wardo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After last night's performance, I think re-sign or trade is out of the question and the answer is "place next to the street with a $20 bill pinned to his shirt and hope somebody picks him up".

Too harsh?

 

 

No, but expect to check the street tomorrow with Ward still sitting there but the $20 missing.

 

 

Hard to believe even a few short years ago Ward was invited to Team Canada's Olympic summer camp and also played at the Worlds.  He has fallen way off.  Team Canada doesn't even have him on their radar anymore.  Its simply time.  Don't wait and let him walk as an UFA.  Just try and flog him for whatever you can get - maybe a depth player like a Versteeg and a 2nd round pick.  I can't see that he is worth much more than that.  Its time for Peters like some others have said here to give Eddie a stretch of 7-10 straight games, see what you got before making a final decision on Wardo.

 

 

You seriously think we can get a Versteeg and a 2nd for Ward?  I'd be surprised to get either.  I'm still thinking more like a 7th or 8th.  Period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 game in 4  nights, too much, did he play well no, but you all are making him out to be  AHL material... thats crap..  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 game in 4  nights, too much, did he play well no, but you all are making him out to be  AHL material... thats crap..  

He was a sub .900 goalie going into the weekend, and .500 last night.  That's AHLish. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...