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Should/would GMRF try to bring back someone like a Versteeg?

 

Looking at the UFA list, Jamie McGinn, who had similar numbers as Okposo (same goals-22, less assists- 17 vs. 41) and is a year younger.

 

Eh, maybe just go balls to the walls after Stamkos. That would definitely send a message.

Edited by hopper915

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I don't believe a good young defenseman, 2 meh players and a 13 pick gets us a top 6 forward and a high pick.

IMO, it would be Fleury, PDG or Nordstrom, 13th pick and a 4th rounder. Or Faulk and 13th for Hall and top pick.

Faulk's not going anywhere, and neither is Fleury.

 

The Oil needs D prospects and to cut its forward payroll. 

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coastal, although I can't rebut your contention on the 2 goalies, I'd point out that the 2 have a point of coincidence which may explain why the rush to sign up Lack for 2 yrs, sight unseen and this signing of Cam may have been affected, and that would be the goalie coach they both share. Yes, Marcoux is the common factor which may, and I emphasize MAY, explain how both Cam and Eddie got off to a horrible start. Now I don't pretend to know the innuendos of hockey coaching, much less goalie coaching, but his methods may have either not been fully understood by either goalie, or have been totally alien to particularly Lack.

 

Just a thought.

Edited by KJUNKANE

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 I'd have to say it is pretty clear that Marcoux nose what he is doing.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry. :facepalm2: . That was uncalled for, 

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Should/would GMRF try to bring back someone like a Versteeg?

 

Looking at the UFA list, Jamie McGinn, who had similar numbers as Okposo (same goals-22, less assists- 17 vs. 41) and is a year younger.

 

Eh, maybe just go balls to the walls after Stamkos. That would definitely send a message.

 

I can envision a scenario where Versteeg could end up back in Raleigh if several things came to pass.

  1. RF isn't able to add a RW in whatever additional moves he makes this offseason (seems like that's still our shallowest forward position).
  2. Versteeg ends up as one of those reasonably valuable but unsexy UFAs who slips through the cracks during the free agent signing frenzy.
  3. Versteeg recognizes where the Canes are headed based on his time here (and recent moves by RF) which leads him to:
  4. Take a big enough pay cut to interest RF, whose greatest strength I'm starting to suspect is the ability to identify and jump on opportunities before others.  An opportunistic GM, if you will.  Versteeg is going to take a massive pay cut imo, the question is will it be enough to interest RF?

I don't hold it against Versteeg that he didn't re-up with the Canes while he was here because I'm guessing that RF probably didn't try too hard to sign him.  Because I'm not sure that would have been the smartest thing to do.  I'm guessing that RF was better off getting the rental return on Versteeg and then talking to him as a UFA if he was interested in bringing him back to Carolina this season. 

Edited by LakeLivin

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Giving up two RD is tough, but Murphy's a former first-rounder who increasingly doesn't look to fit, and you gotta give up something to get back that 4th overall pick. Maybe if we include McKeown we don't have to give picks at all, and could re-fill the RD pipeline in the draft. 

 

Then again I'd gladly leave that 4th overall on the table, if Murph, Nash, and maybe our #21 first rounder brought back one of the EDM forwards. Which is possible.

Call me cynical, but i dont think Murph is ever going to cut it as a  d-man.. Hope i am wrong.. I dont want PMG AND /OR Nordstrom to go..

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I'm not quite sure how Francis is getting his Cam was a top 5 goalie after December. I can only assume that most goalies save percentages declined in the back half of the year? Or that he is cherry picking a number of starts over that time.

 

I might be doing it wrong, so I ask for confirmation, but I get that Cam's save % from Jan-Mar (the good months) was around .917.

 

If this is compared vs. goalies for the entire year with at least 40 starts, that makes Cam #20. Now this is not terrible, but it is below the halfway mark, and that is the "cherry-picked" part.

 

It would appear that even the best Cam is at best a middle of the pack #1. Not that this is terrible, but he has to bring that for the entire year to be, as it were, average as a #1 goalie.

 

Am I getting this wrong?

Edited by remkin

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Call me cynical, but i dont think Murph is ever going to cut it as a  d-man.. Hope i am wrong.. I dont want PMG AND /OR Nordstrom to go..

Given Nordstrom's emergence last year and the effectiveness of that line, I don't think he's on the table. I don't want/think PDG is going to be, either.

 

I also hear you on Murph, but my response would be "You think that, and I think that, but EDM might think differently." No matter what else you say about Murphy, he can move the puck, he was a first-rounder, and at 23, he is still young by D-development standards. Packaged with Nash, which would bring them back a solid, big NHL forward, EDM adds D and cuts its forward payroll. Give 'em McKeown to boot and I think besides Hall, Eberle, or RNH, we get their first-rounder, too.   

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I'm not quite sure how Francis is getting his Cam was a top 5 goalie after December. I can only assume that most goalies save percentages declined in the back half of the year? Or that he is cherry picking a number of starts over that time.

 

I might be doing it wrong, so I ask for confirmation, but I get that Cam's save % from Jan-Mar (the good months) was around .917.

 

If this is compared vs. goalies for the entire year with at least 40 starts, that makes Cam #20. Now this is not terrible, but it is below the halfway mark, and that is the "cherry-picked" part.

 

It would appear that even the best Cam is at best a middle of the pack #1. Not that this is terrible, but he has to bring that for the entire year to be, as it were, average as a #1 goalie.

 

Am I getting this wrong?

No, you're not. Even the org's write-up of the extension could only pump Cam up to 7th:

 

"Ward returned to the net on Dec. 18, and, from then until the end of the season, posted an NHL seventh-best 2.19 goals-against average.."

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If this is compared vs. goalies for the entire year with at least 40 starts, that makes Cam #20. Now this is not terrible, but it is below the halfway mark, and that is the "cherry-picked" part.

 

It would appear that even the best Cam is at best a middle of the pack #1. Not that this is terrible, but he has to bring that for the entire year to be, as it were, average as a #1 goalie.

 

CWIAAB - new acronym, old old statement.

 

Everyone feels it, everyone nose it.

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coastal, although I can't rebut your contention on the 2 goalies, I'd point out that the 2 have a point of coincidence which may explain why the rush to sign up Lack for 2 yrs, sight unseen and this signing of Cam may have been affected, and that would be the goalie coach they both share. Yes, Marcoux is the common factor which may, and I emphasize MAY, explain how both Cam and Eddie got off to a horrible start. Now I don't pretend to know the innuendos of hockey coaching, much less goalie coaching, but his methods may have either not been fully understood by either goalie, or have been totally alien to particularly Lack.

 

Just a thought.

Typically organizations hire a goalie coach, even though goalies themselves work with one of their own choosing in the off-season. The logic of which has and always will elude me. The org should let the keepers use their own guys, fork out the extra cash to make it happen, and work with them to make sure what they're doing with "their" keeper in terms of puck-handling fits the coach's system.

 

The big hitch last year with Marcoux is that he wanted Eddie higher up in the crease, which is fundamentally sound because it shrinks the available net for shooters. The problem is that Eddie is not great skater; he has trouble re-establishing position when forced to make a difficult save, and that's just when he's playing where he is comfortable, deep in the crease, and moving (primarily) side-to-side. By forcing him to also move up and back in the crease, Marcoux compounded Lack's already-poor mobility.

 

Lack played much better after that experiment was abandoned, but he was still a rebound machine. The fact that the mobility issue was there while he was with the Canucks suggests to me (and I really hope I'm wrong) that Eddie's great stretch with them, filling in for the injured Ryan Miller, was the kind of adrenaline-fed performance that goalies sometimes put together, but which all too rarely translates into long-term success (remember the "Hamburglar's" miracle run for the Senators? Guess who's back in the AHL).

 

The reason I'm okay with Cam is that he is fundamentally sound and seldom downright terrible. In a word: reliable. I am more okay with him now that he's being paid a number that reflects reliability, versus Brodeur ability :) But that being said, Cam can be brilliant at times, and he does rise to the occasion; his best work has always come under pressure. To get it done, however, I think we need another of him--which, so far, Lack has not been.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I don't hold it against Versteeg that he didn't re-up with the Canes while he was here because I'm guessing that RF probably didn't try too hard to sign him. 

My recollection is that RF plainly stated he wanted to sign Versteeg. And I think once Versteeg told him he wanted to go to a team with Cup potential, Ronnie was done.

 

I think (and hope) Ronnie will remain done with any player who puts his own immediate interests above those of the organization as a whole. I think Cam's desire to stay and his willingness to take a serious pay cut is why he got a generous "limit" on his NTC. Contrast that with Versteeg, who had a chance to stick it out with everybody else in the room and be part of what's being built here, but chose not to.

 

That's his absolutely prerogative, but I don't think it's the kind of "commitment" Ronnie is looking for.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Murphy bringing anything back other than a 4th round pick is pretty much laughable. Who in their right mind give up a roster player for a fringe NHLer?

Who said they would? Not me. I said they might give up a roster player for two D prospects and an NHL forward.

 

So there's that.

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My recollection is that RF plainly stated he wanted to sign Versteeg. And I think once Versteeg told him he wanted to go to a team with Cup potential, Ronnie was done.

 

I think (and hope) Ronnie will remain done with any player who puts his own immediate interests above those of the organization as a whole. Versteeg had a chance to stick it out with everybody else and be part of what's being built here. He chose not to. I don't want him back. 

 

That sounds like a fairly emotional response.  Seems like most players today recognize that NHL teams are also businesses and have to act as such.  Are you implying that the notion should only work in one direction?  When Chicago traded Versteeg after he helped them to the Stanley Cup he said he understood the business aspect.  But you're going to hold it against him if he similarly protects himself?  :blink:

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Given Nordstrom's emergence last year and the effectiveness of that line, I don't think he's on the table. I don't want/think PDG is going to be, either.

 

I also hear you on Murph, but my response would be "You think that, and I think that, but EDM might think differently." No matter what else you say about Murphy, he can move the puck, he was a first-rounder, and at 23, he is still young by D-development standards. Packaged with Nash, which would bring them back a solid, big NHL forward, EDM adds D and cuts its forward payroll. Give 'em McKeown to boot and I think besides Hall, Eberle, or RNH, we get their first-rounder, too.   

Murphy plus Nash (who happens to be a UFA) plus McKeown for Hall or Eberle or RNH plus #4 oa?

 

If Edmonton makes that deal I think they're shopping for the wrong pieces. What they need to be out buying is some new scouts. :P

Edited by LakeLivin

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Murphy bringing anything back other than a 4th round pick is pretty much laughable. Who in their right mind give up a roster player for a fringe NHLer?

 

 

You never know what goes through the minds of GMs.  JR traded Jamie McBain and a second for Sekera.  Think RF wouldn't also give up a 2nd-rounder for a similar upgrade?

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That sounds like a fairly emotional response.  Seems like most players today recognize that NHL teams are also businesses and have to act as such.  Are you implying that the notion should only work in one direction?  When Chicago traded Versteeg after he helped them to the Stanley Cup he said he understood the business aspect.  But you're going to hold it against him if he similarly protects himself?  :blink:

The fact that Versteeg said the right things when Chicago did what it does--what it just did with Teravainen and Bickell, and what it did with Sharp and many more - has no relation to Versteeg choosing the pursuit of a ring now over the possibility of one in a couple more years here. The first was Chicago's business decision. The second was Versteeg's selfish one.

 

His choice is very instructive. He went with the odds--and how did that work out? If he'd instead stayed here and fought to get THIS team in, it would surely have raised his stock in Ronnie's eyes. That's not emotional, it just is. 

 

Everybody thought Sekera would be back too. Nope. And I like it.

 

Again, those choices are certainly these guys' prerogatives. But to ignore what it also tells us about what matters most to them would be foolish, and the foolishness of letting guys leave and bringing them back has already crippled this team enough. I think (hope) Ronnie is done with it.

 

There are no guarantees in sports. Players who expect them anyway are not the ones we should want on the ice when we're down a goal with two minutes left.

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Murphy plus Nash (who happens to be a UFA) plus McKeown for Hall or Eberle or RNH plus #4 oa?

 

If Edmonton makes that deal I think they're shopping for the wrong pieces. What they need to be out buying is some new scouts. :P

In an earlier post I mention making Nash a sign and trade. 

 

EDM has issues with its forward payroll and needs D. Pay Nash $2 million, send him to Edmonton. Other Oilers move up the depth chart, and it gets one of their big-number guys off the books, which they have too many of already. Meanwhile Murphy and McKeown provide organizational D depth and a solid prospect respectively.

 

Yeah, it's a question of how badly EDM wants to get one or more of those guys off the books. But three players for one to a building team is nothing to sneeze at. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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The fact that Versteeg said the right things when Chicago did what it does--what it just did with Teravainen and Bickell, and what it did with Sharp and many more - has no relation to Versteeg choosing the pursuit of a ring now over the possibility of one in a couple more years here. The first was Chicago's business decision. The second was Versteeg's selfish one.

 

His choice is very instructive. He went with the odds--and how did that work out? If he'd instead stayed here and fought to get THIS team in, it would surely have raised his stock in Ronnie's eyes. That's not emotional, it just is. 

 

Everybody thought Sekera would be back too. Nope. And I like it.

 

Again, those choices are certainly these guys' prerogatives. But to ignore what it also tells us about what matters most to them would be foolish, and the foolishness of letting guys leave and bringing them back has already crippled this team enough. I think (hope) Ronnie is done with it.

 

There are no guarantees in sports. Players who expect them anyway are not the ones we should want on the ice when we're down a goal with two minutes left.

 

Unless you have some inside knowledge, we have no clue as to what RF offered Versteeg as far as a contract extension.  That could just as well have been the reason he didn't sign an extension here as feeling he'd have a better chance at the cup with another team. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was RF who made the trade, not Versteeg.  RF could have kept Versteeg for the duration of the season and kept negotiations open.  But let me guess: Versteeg should have taken whatever RF offered at the time and by not doing so he displayed a lack of loyalty to the Canes that should make him dead to the organization forever more?  Or perhaps, at the deadline, Versteeg demanded a trade to a Cup contender?

 

My apologies if you've got some insider info, but seems to me you're making a lot of assumptions about Versteeg's motivations and using those to come to some pretty harsh conclusions.

Edited by LakeLivin

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coastal, although I can't rebut your contention on the 2 goalies, I'd point out that the 2 have a point of coincidence which may explain why the rush to sign up Lack for 2 yrs, sight unseen and this signing of Cam may have been affected, and that would be the goalie coach they both share. Yes, Marcoux is the common factor which may, and I emphasize MAY, explain how both Cam and Eddie got off to a horrible start. Now I don't pretend to know the innuendos of hockey coaching, much less goalie coaching, but his methods may have either not been fully understood by either goalie, or have been totally alien to particularly Lack.

 

Just a thought.

 

I don't think many hardcore fans have much faith in Marcoux.  Lack did state he wasn't comfortable being so far from the net, so that's not a good sign the coach and player were on the same page.  With these wacky goalies I often wonder if they are better off with just a strength and conditioning coach and that's it.

 

Still not comfortable with the same tandem going forward.  But if that's the hand we are dealt, I hope it works out.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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