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On the spending to the cap thing. Toronto and Montreal are two of the top spending teams. Columbus is up there too.

 

Last season, Toronto was 4th in cap spending, behind the Rangers, Penguins, and Kings.  Montreal was 7th, Columbus was 18th. I think you're trying to say that some teams spend but don't get results? I am certain there is a general positive correlation to spending and points, as teams have to pay more to keep superstars, and teams in the playoff mix often spend on additions during the season to make a deeper run.  

 

But, yes, you still have to pick the right guys.  It's actually quite an insult to Ron Francis to say "if we spent more, we wouldn't get any better."  

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What I'm trying to say is that you can spend your way to having a bad team and have your hands tied. Francis is doing it the right way and is getting credit for this from the analysts.

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What I'm trying to say is that you can spend your way to having a bad team and have your hands tied. Francis is doing it the right way and is getting credit for this from the analysts.

Ehhhhgggg-xactly.

 

The Rags are in trouble deep with their cap issues, TBL could be in a couple of years (I don't know enough about who is in their system), and the only reason the Leafs and Habs can spend spend spend despite poor results is that their barns are sold out for the next 20 years, and would continue to be even if their first line was Chris Terry, Brad Malone and a Springer spaniel.

 

Look anywhere around the league and you can see how various teams deal with spending right up to the cap. Chicago's an example of one that pays a heavy price for doing so, giving up top prospects in order to shed big contracts. We've benefited in the form of Nordstrom, TT and Robertson. Other teams have too; check out the list of guys Chicago has been forced to send packing in the last few years so they can keep Kane and Toews and a few others.

 

That's fine--as long as their top guys are performing, the club is winning, and they've got guys in the system to replace the prospects they must sacrifice. So far they have, thanks to rebuilding from the ground up--the way we are now, after years and years of trying to buy and trade our way to success.

 

The complainers here might want to study how long it took the Blackhawks to achieve the depth they have, then look at what Ronnie and Bill have managed in just two years.

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The past 2 years this team has missed the playoffs so in ny honest opinion the team has not accomplished anything worthwhile in BPs tenure here. If consistently missing the playoffs is acceptable to you then more power to ya!

As stated above, there is a very fine line between building up your prospect pool and developing players and not bringing in top end talent vis trade or free agency. The way I see it this team can choose to either be the Florida Panthers or Edmonton Oilers. So far this team is the Edmonton Oilers. Bottom line: until this team makes the playoffs, BP is a total failure.

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Ehhhhgggg-xactly.

 

The Rags are in trouble deep with their cap issues, TBL could be in a couple of years (I don't know enough about who is in their system), and the only reason the Leafs and Habs can spend spend spend despite poor results is that their barns are sold out for the next 20 years, and would continue to be even if their first line was Chris Terry, Brad Malone and a Springer spaniel.

 

Look anywhere around the league and you can see how various teams deal with spending right up to the cap. Chicago's an example of one that pays a heavy price for doing so, giving up top prospects in order to shed big contracts. We've benefited in the form of Nordstrom, TT and Robertson. Other teams have too; check out the list of guys Chicago has been forced to send packing in the last few years so they can keep Kane and Toews and a few others.

 

That's fine--as long as their top guys are performing, the club is winning, and they've got guys in the system to replace the prospects they must sacrifice. So far they have, thanks to rebuilding from the ground up--the way we are now, after years and years of trying to buy and trade our way to success.

 

The complainers here might want to study how long it took the Blackhawks to achieve the depth they have, then look at what Ronnie and Bill have managed in just two years.

TB is more like Chicago as most of their talent came through drafting. I agree the Canes are following the right path, and quickly.  I'd settle for what Yzerman has done with TB, including with late rounders. Too bad Canes never picked at 1 or 2 like TB did.

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The complainers here might want to study how long it took the Blackhawks to achieve the depth they have, then look at what Ronnie and Bill have managed in just two years.

 

They drafted Toews in 06, Kane in 07, and proceeded to made the playoffs 8 straight seasons with 3 Cups.  They are actually the model franchise for spending to the cap every year and getting value for it.  The Canes are still advertising based on one Cup a decade ago; I have to chuckle at the thought of our fans pitying the horrible situation that the Blackhawks are "in".  Oh, woe is them.     

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They drafted Toews in 06, Kane in 07, and proceeded to made the playoffs 8 straight seasons with 3 Cups.  They are actually the model franchise for spending to the cap every year and getting value for it.  The Canes are still advertising based on one Cup a decade ago; I have to chuckle at the thought of our fans pitying the horrible situation that the Blackhawks are "in".  Oh, woe is them.     

And I have to chuckle at your suggestion that anybody is pitying the Hawks! 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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The past 2 years this team has missed the playoffs so in ny honest opinion the team has not accomplished anything worthwhile in BPs tenure here. If consistently missing the playoffs is acceptable to you then more power to ya!

As stated above, there is a very fine line between building up your prospect pool and developing players and not bringing in top end talent vis trade or free agency. The way I see it this team can choose to either be the Florida Panthers or Edmonton Oilers. So far this team is the Edmonton Oilers. Bottom line: until this team makes the playoffs, BP is a total failure.

 

BD, have a Snickers bar.

 

Any team in its 3rd year with the 'new' head coach and 4th year with the 'new' GM MUST be able to make the playoffs.  Anything less is failure even if they get bounced in the 1st round.

 

Nordy and Nesty have alot to prove.  Less than 20 goals each and as many assists each means they are really destined to be hourneymen tagged with the worst pro title there is: Has lots of potential.

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You also can't really compare this team to TB since yzerman already have good scoring forwards to build around. This team doesn't have that luxury. Last year people said that in 3 years under BP it's either playoffs or bust. Now that tune has changed.

I don't care how competitve this team is or how close this team was to making it last season. The bottom line is that they still ended up with the same result: Missing the playoffs.

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It is definitely true that a few teams with big money have gotten into the habit of relying too heavily on UFAs, and trading the future for high- priced, big name players. Right now the Rangers are posterboys for this.

 

But it takes some serious convincing of one's self to think that have less money to fix an area of weakness makes us better. There is a line there somewhere, and we feel a bit on the el cheapo side of that line at the moment. Otherwise we should just keep spending less, dang cap floor is keeping us from true long term success.

 

Chicago is on the far other end of a curve I think we'd kill to be on any part of, but at best are at the near end. Despite their cap woes, they have 3 of the last 7 Stanley Cups, and they are still going to be competitive for years even if they do have to cast off the occasional promising young player. Of course it helps them a lot that they have Duncan Keith locked up on an insanely small salary for him.

 

Anyway, we are essentially the lowest payroll team in the league w/ New Jersey and that's after taking Bickell's salary.

 

There's no way our same, brilliant GM couldn't make us better spending on just one player. That would not have to stop the draft and develop. But that player did not come along, so at least at this point it isn't happening unless...

 

Based on recent history it would be predicted that we are done now. But not necessarily. We have so much cap space that it's nuts. We missed out on Taylor Hall, but could there be another deal out there where we again take back salary, but get an even better player than TT? Edmonton is still up against the cap, Pittsburgh, Chicago?

 

I think we go forward hoping for improvements from some guys, arrival of Aho, and hope that Stempniak can keep it going. This year is one more year of stay the course. Hopefully Aho develops into a Stud playmaker and Guathier develops into a stud power forward for a few years down the line.

 

But at some point, I do think Francis is going to make a big move and convert some defensive depth to offense. It could happen before camp, it could happen later in the year, or next year.

 

The risk of waiting is that another bad start would be really, well bad, in many ways. We need to quicky integrate Aho, TT, and Stempniak into the system, and get off to at least a decent start...

Edited by remkin

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This year is one more year of stay the course. 

 

I agree--and I think the complainers haven't been paying attention to the course we've taken during the last two years, if they think we're done.

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Now that tune has changed.

No, it hasn't.

 

I don't know of anyone here who hasn't agreed that making the playoffs this year is the objective. 

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I think it's safe to say we have our new Greg.

 

I dunno.  At least he doesn't preach with def-i-ni-tions and other irritating habits.

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Many of us think Ronnie is done with his moves for now. I also know we don't want to get into high dollar long term NTC deals, but this would be an interesting trade possibility. It goes against our mission statement,but I love the thought. http://www.stanleycupofchowder.com/2016/7/2/12087928/nhl-free-agency-jason-demers-david-krejci-boston-bruins-florida-panthers-trade

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I think it's safe to say we have our new Greg.

I was thinking the same thing earlier and I couldn't recall his name. Maybe the one in the same.

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I agree--and I think the complainers haven't been paying attention to the course we've taken during the last two years, if they think we're done.

Yeah, I didn't really mean stay the course was wrong, just that it is a continuation of small, careful, measured moves vs. a big move.

 

I do think Francis would like to make that big move. But he is very wary of it. He does not want to overpay for UFAs or overpay in trades. We were in on Hall. I have to think it would have been Faulk because Francis was said to want more back, and I have to think Hanifin is untouchable, and Faulk is the only one he could ask for more than Hall.

 

But where would we splash? Draft? Well the price was too high. Time will tell, but that looks like the right move at this point.

 

UFA: Takes two to make that deal go, and the big names went to play with Tavares, Eichel, McDavid, etc.

 

Deals. The cap strap deal has worked well for us. Got us TT. But Detroit didn't really end up giving up much to unload Datsuk's deal, so that one didn't happen. There still may be one of these out there.

 

Hockey Trade: Problem here is that our need is elite forward. I don't think any of our D, outside of Hanifin, and Faulk bring that back. Hanifin is in my mind untouchable. Faulk is in theory not untouchable, but is THIS the year to make that move? It would have to be a killer move to be worth the risk of trying to get by this year without Faulk, because this year's team is probably not quite ready to fly without him.

 

Then there is the loss of Wiz, who went from solid vet RHD to buy out in a second.

 

That (hockey trade) move may be more doable next year. Once we see what we have in Fleury, McKeown and frankly even Hanifin. Likewise Fleury and or McKeown's trade value should increase with time too, and we'll see a bit more of Bean too.

 

Just seems like all of that defensive capital might not be spent until next year and later.

 

 

But, what Francis has been able to do, is pick up pieces without losing a single long term prospect or player not heading into UFA. He has managed to keep all of those chips in play, developing down on the farm. All those guys we picked up earlier by the deadline deals of Sekera, Versteeg, and Eric Staal, and good drafts.

 

I have to say, while this time of year I become a perma optimist, that I am far more optimistic this year about looking for improvements and production from guys named Teravainen, Aho, Lindholm and Rask, not to mention long term from Gauthier, than I have been that this plan would work hoping for the likes of Dalpe, Bowman, Boychuk, or even Terry.

 

There really is reason to think that this staying the course and a few key moves (TT. Stempniak) and hopes for Aho, could lead to a big surprise from this young, up and coming team.

Edited by remkin

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Hockey Trade: Problem here is that our need is elite forward. I don't think any of our D, outside of Hanifin, and Faulk bring that back. Hanifin is in my mind untouchable. Faulk is in theory not untouchable, but is THIS the year to make that move? It would have to be a killer move to be worth the risk of trying to get by this year without Faulk, because this year's team is probably not quite ready to fly without him.

 

 

Would you trade D for Krejci? 60+ pts is tempting

Edited by slapshot02

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Many of us think Ronnie is done with his moves for now. I also know we don't want to get into high dollar long term NTC deals, but this would be an interesting trade possibility. It goes against our mission statement,but I love the thought. http://www.stanleycupofchowder.com/2016/7/2/12087928/nhl-free-agency-jason-demers-david-krejci-boston-bruins-florida-panthers-trade

I wouldn't do a trade for a 30 year old Krejci for 24 year old Faulk.

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I dunno.  At least he doesn't preach with def-i-ni-tions and other irritating habits.

 

This is very true.  I was referring to the epic struggle to be miserable.  Far be it from me to stop that.

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Couple of thoughts:

 

Any slight possibility of trading Faulk for a franchise forward was dependent on Wiz holding down the right side on the 1st pair next season.  That's out the window.

 

We're obviously not going to expose Faulk to expansion.  If we don't pick up an expansion eligible d-man this off season (or, say, take a chance on Murphy getting 35 games in and he doesn't), any reason we couldn't trade for one before the trade deadline? Obviously not ideal because at that point RF would be giving up assets mostly to protect Faulk, but at least it's a safety net. Unless I missed a clause in the expansion draft rules.

 

I still think that if we didn't "overpay" for Stempniak we at least paid full retail.  $2.5m/ per matches the highest he's ever been paid and it's coming when he's 33yo and statistically more likely to put up numbers closer to his career average than last year's career high. Even if we did "overpay", I'm not saying it's the wrong move.  If the fit is good enough (which RF clearly thinks is the case), it may have made more sense to lock him down than risk losing while trying to get him as cheaply as possible (and then having to start over). 

 

Big-money-long-term contracts present a risk, regardless of the player acquired. To me, whether to take such a risk may come down to timing.  If the acquisition may make you a cup contender for an extended period of time, it may be worth it.  I don't see us as being there, yet.

 

Is there a point at which complaining about complaining also becomes whining?  That's a question, not an accusation. :D

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Is there a point at which complaining about complaining also becomes whining?  That's a question, not an accusation. :D

 

:letssee: .

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Couple of thoughts:

 

Any slight possibility of trading Faulk for a franchise forward was dependent on Wiz holding down the right side on the 1st pair next season.  That's out the window.

 

We're obviously not going to expose Faulk to expansion.  If we don't pick up an expansion eligible d-man this off season (or, say, take a chance on Murphy getting 35 games in and he doesn't), any reason we couldn't trade for one before the trade deadline? Obviously not ideal because at that point RF would be giving up assets mostly to protect Faulk, but at least it's a safety net. Unless I missed a clause in the expansion draft rules.

 

I still think that if we didn't "overpay" for Stempniak we at least paid full retail.  $2.5m/ per matches the highest he's ever been paid and it's coming when he's 33yo and statistically more likely to put up numbers closer to his career average than last year's career high. Even if we did "overpay", I'm not saying it's the wrong move.  If the fit is good enough (which RF clearly thinks is the case), it may have made more sense to lock him down than risk losing while trying to get him as cheaply as possible (and then having to start over). 

 

Big-money-long-term contracts present a risk, regardless of the player acquired. To me, whether to take such a risk may come down to timing.  If the acquisition may make you a cup contender for an extended period of time, it may be worth it.  I don't see us as being there, yet.

 

Is there a point at which complaining about complaining also becomes whining?  That's a question, not an accusation. :D

 

I have no idea when we will pick up another defenseman, I just think we will.  My guess is later in the summer but not in-season.

 

:letssee:   If you are complaining about the complaining then maybe ask yourself if your also whining?  And that's a question :P.  I get it though, it's a good point.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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I have no idea when we will pick up another defenseman, I just think we will.  My guess is later in the summer but not in-season.

 

:letssee:   If you are complaining about the complaining then maybe ask yourself if your also whining?  And that's a question :P.  I get it though, it's a good point.

 

Ok, now my head is starting to hurt!   :dizzy:

________________________

--------------------------------------------

 

Agree on the d-man, it definitely makes sense to pick up another right shot D-man this summer. But for some reason I was thinking that we'd be at risk if we didn't get a likely "exposable" d-man before the season starts.  But if worse comes to worse, we just buy the cheapest d-man on the market at the deadline.  There's no way Faulk is going to be subject to risk.

Edited by LakeLivin

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Lakevin great post. The people complaining about complainers and calling them names and insulting them should be reprimanded if not banned. Those are the true whiners and poison of this board.

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