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I know in the previous CBA a team can loan a player to an IIHF-recognized European league.  For example if Lindholm would have been sent back to Sweden instead of playing in Raleigh his contract would have slid.  The NHL contract is still in effect but it slides so when he returns to the NHL he still has 3 years on the ELC.  There were other rules that applied as well.   I am assuming that remained in the recent CBA but I am not sure.

 

I'm also not sure if the same thing applies to CHL players, but I would assume so, as long as they are under contract and are willing to go to the assigned club.  Again, assuming the same rules carried over to the recent CBA.

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I know in the previous CBA a team can loan a player to an IIHF-recognized European league.  For example if Lindholm would have been sent back to Sweden instead of playing in Raleigh his contract would have slid.  The NHL contract is still in effect but it slides so when he returns to the NHL he still has 3 years on the ELC.  There were other rules that applied as well.   I am assuming that remained in the recent CBA but I am not sure.

 

I'm also not sure if the same thing applies to CHL players, but I would assume so, as long as they are under contract and are willing to go to the assigned club.  Again, assuming the same rules carried over to the recent CBA.

If so, I'd jerk Gauthier out of the Q and send him someplace where he can play against other guys his size, so we can at least figure out where he is in the development process.

 

Crazy that the CHL and NHL are so protective of Canadian ticket revenue in small markets that they'll agree to loan a drafted player to Europe, but not the AHL--when doing so is the best way to determine where he stands in his development. What, fans in Val D' Or are going to stop buying tickets there and drive to CLT instead, just to see Gauthier play here??

 

The CHL loves to claim it is "the gateway to the NHL." Seems more like a for-profit prison wringing every possible dollar out of Canadian youth hockey players - and limiting their educational opportunities in the process - to me.

 

WALOC.

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If so, I'd jerk Gauthier out of the Q and send him someplace where he can play against other guys his size, so we can at least figure out where he is in the development process.

 

Crazy that the CHL and NHL are so protective of Canadian ticket revenue in small markets that they'll agree to loan a drafted player to Europe, but not the AHL--when doing so is the best way to determine where he stands in his development. What, fans in Val D' Or are going to stop buying tickets there and drive to CLT instead, just to see Gauthier play here??

 

The CHL loves to claim it is "the gateway to the NHL." Seems more like a for-profit prison wringing every possible dollar out of Canadian youth hockey players - and limiting their educational opportunities in the process - to me.

 

WALOC.

 

Well, I actually found a PDF of the current NHL CBA online - http://cdn.agilitycms.com/nhlpacom/PDF/NHL_NHLPA_2013_CBA.pdf.

 

If you need something to put you to sleep, it's 540 pages of guaranteed soporific. :lol:

 

The notion of loaning a player to a non-NHL club does still exist in the CBA, but with conditions. According to Article 8.7, section a):

 

             During the first two seasons next succeeding the draft of an age 18 Player, the Club he
             signs an SPC with must first offer him to the club from which he was claimed
             before it may Loan him. (emphasis mine)
 
 
So, it looks as if, say, the Hurricanes could loan Gauthier to a non-NHL club once they sign him to an SPC (Standard Player COntract), but they'd have to offer him to Val d'Or in the QMJHL before they could loan him to a European team. Bummer.
Edited by JonKerfoot

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So, it looks as if, say, the Hurricanes could loan Gauthier to a non-NHL club once they sign him to an SPC (Standard Player COntract), but they'd have to offer him to Val d'Or in the QMJHL before they could loan him to a European team. Bummer.

Exactly, and just the kind of preferential-to-Canada terms built into the system. Much easier to get players directly from Europe and the NCAA - at least, that is, if you'd like them to begin engraining your organization's system and training expectations sometime before they turn 20.

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Random question:

 

Did Jordan Staal ever say he's committed to Raleigh?

 

I remember around the time his brother was dealt, he wouldn't say whether or not he was committed. I remember Ron Francis said something along the lines of giving JStaal some time away to think about what he wants.

 

I was just wondering if there were any updates.

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Random question:

 

Did Jordan Staal ever say he's committed to Raleigh?

 

I remember around the time his brother was dealt, he wouldn't say whether or not he was committed. I remember Ron Francis said something along the lines of giving JStaal some time away to think about what he wants.

 

I was just wondering if there were any updates.

Francis met with Jordan under the radar a couple weeks after the season.

 

Then later said, basically, "yeah, we met, everything is fine." I don't recall any kind of effusive Jordan will be a Cane for life kind of thing, just that they discussed things. While Jordan did understand it, he was not happy that Francis pulled the plug on the team at the deadline, and wanted some assurance that this was not going to keep happening. It seemed to be more about taking two key guys off the team than specifically about trading Eric.

 

Personally I see this as far less of a "you traded my brother thing", as "we worked our tuckuses off to get near the cut line only to watch guys we needed go away." But even with that, after the dust settled he got why it had to happen.

 

To me, I don't have problem with that. J did basically lift this team into at least shooting distance and worked hard to battle other team's top lines while putting up a ppg over a pretty long stretch. Just shows me the guy wants to win.

 

I think that is the key to keeping Jordan happy in Raleigh. Nothing about Eric (Jordan isn't going to Minnesota anyways). But about building a winning team. And that's what I want him to value.

 

I know others may not agree, but I want him here, and I think he is up for it, so long as he feels we are trying to win. I actually think Jordan is the most primed for a breakout year of anyone.

 

Of course the exciting thing is that besides him, we have several other guys with legit chances at breakout years.

Edited by remkin

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Francis met with Jordan under the radar.

 

Then later said, basically, "yeah, we met, everything is fine."

Francis must have been talkative that day.

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I want him here, and I think he is up for it, so long as he feels we are trying to win. 

Agreed. Jordan is the closest thing we've had to a Rod Brind'Amour since the man himself, and the only real difference I see between the two is that Roddy is more vocal. But in terms of their games, if all our centers model their game on J's, this could be a very strong team for a very long time.

 

I had big concerns whether Jordan would hang in, but I don't anymore--and I think he's going to be a key leader on this team. Will he get the "C"? I hope the players decide, and if they do, I hope he's their choice.

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Exactly, and just the kind of preferential-to-Canada terms built into the system. Much easier to get players directly from Europe and the NCAA - at least, that is, if you'd like them to begin engraining your organization's system and training expectations sometime before they turn 20.

 

Yeah, exactly.

 

I wonder if I can look at trends here - players coming to the NHL from Europe and from college over the last 20-30 years, compared to the number of CHL players drafted and the revenues of CHL teams - to see if one has had an influence on the other.

 

Man, I hate the dog days of hockey summer. :shifty:

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Here's a trend that I have posted a version of before, but will put here.

 

I the development thread I link the reference, and agree with the point that we have been drafting much better in late rounds lately.

 

But our run of second rounders is really impressive. The linked reference claims that only 1/4 second round picks hit 200 NHL games.

 

And if you look up Hurricanes and even Whalers' second round picks pre 2006 is not good and pree 2004 I can't find one guy going back until pre 1992. Now the data is harder to follow pre-97, and 2001 Zigomanis hit 197, pretty close, but still, not one player hit 200 NHL games as a Hurricane's second round pick before 2006 till ??? got tired of looking.

 

Starting in 2006 with the pick of Jamie McBain, our fortunes began to seriously pick up w/ second round picks.

 

2006: McBain: 345 NHL games and counting. Became Sekera, who became Gauthier and Zykov. The gift that keeps on giving.

2007: No pick

2008: Dalpe; 117 NHL games but still going....

2009: Brian Dumoulin: traded to PIt. 93 NHL games but appears well on his way to pass 200.

2010: Justin Faulk. 326 and counting.

2011: Victor Rask: 160 and counting, clearly will pass this year.

2012: PDG: 41 games and counting. Pretty good bet to hit.

2012: McGinn: 21 NHL games. I still like him, but he is suddenly in a much deeper system, so will have to break out soon.

2013: No pick.

2014: Nedeljovic. very promising goalie but too soon to tell

2015: Aho: pretty good bet.

 

If we assume Nedlejovic, Doumalin, Rask, PDG and Aho hit the mark and McGinn and Dalpe don't, we will have hit on 78% of our second round picks since 2006, and almost none before that. Then McBain almost certainly ends up also turning into a 200 plus game guy in Gauthier, and maybe even Zykov. 

 

And the quality has gotten better too. Faulk, Rask, and probably Aho are (or could become) top players, with Nedel having a shot too.

 

Add that to Slavin, Pesce, and possibly Roy from recent late rounds?

 

We are drafting pretty pretty well lately.

Edited by remkin

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Yeah, exactly.

 

I wonder if I can look at trends here - players coming to the NHL from Europe and from college over the last 20-30 years, compared to the number of CHL players drafted and the revenues of CHL teams - to see if one has had an influence on the other.

 

Man, I hate the dog days of hockey summer. :shifty:

Without doing one iota of research I'll go out on a limb and guess that the protectionist policies toward Canada in CBAs have increased in response to the initial wave of players from Europe in the mid-70s, and become increasingly restrictive ever since. I know that's not what you're looking into exactly. But I'd bet the ranch and all the livestock on it.

 

Years ago I heard an interview with Burton Cummings (who is still out there touring, BTW) and he said something that's stayed with me ever since. Asked how he got into music, he said, "In Canada you pretty much had two choices if you wanted to be famous, music and hockey. I was no good at hockey, so that pretty much narrowed it down."

 

It's hard for we Americans to fully comprehend how big an economic engine hockey is in Canada, so on one level, their protection of it is understandable. Where I have a problem is the lack of anything close to minimum wage for juniors, and the sunset clause with scholarships. Let the ones who've essentially donated their youth to the hockey economy at least get an education whenever they leave hockey, not within 18 months. Even that policy can be read as protectionist, i.e., Canada doesn't want players who can't "make it" in their system taking an alternate route, through Europe. That's just wrong. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Yeah, exactly.

 

I wonder if I can look at trends here - players coming to the NHL from Europe and from college over the last 20-30 years, compared to the number of CHL players drafted and the revenues of CHL teams - to see if one has had an influence on the other.

 

Man, I hate the dog days of hockey summer. :shifty:

 

"Nobody really knows how much money there is in junior hockey because the teams that are privately owned are not compelled to open their books."

Why it might be a good thing for junior teams to pay minimum wage – and be fewer of them:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/why-it-might-be-a-good-thing-for-junior-teams-to-pay-minimum-wage-and-be-fewer-of-them/

Edited by LakeLivin

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doldrums

1:  a state or period of inactivity, stagnation, or slump

 

2: often capitalized :  a part of the ocean near the equator abounding in calms, squalls, and light shifting winds

 

3:  the period of time immediately following the first 2 days of summer NHL Free Agency, up until the start of NHL Training camp

Edited by hag65

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Without doing one iota of research I'll go out on a limb and guess that the protectionist policies toward Canada in CBAs have increased in response to the initial wave of players from Europe in the mid-70s, and become increasingly restrictive ever since. I know that's not what you're looking into exactly. But I'd bet the ranch and all the livestock on it.

 

Years ago I heard an interview with Burton Cummings (who is still out there touring, BTW) and he said something that's stayed with me ever since. Asked how he got into music, he said, "In Canada you pretty much had two choices if you wanted to be famous, music and hockey. I was no good at hockey, so that pretty much narrowed it down."

 

It's hard for we Americans to fully comprehend how big an economic engine hockey is in Canada, so on one level, their protection of it is understandable. Where I have a problem is the lack of anything close to minimum wage for juniors, and the sunset clause with scholarships. Let the ones who've essentially donated their youth to the hockey economy at least get an education whenever they leave hockey, not within 18 months. Even that policy can be read as protectionist, i.e., Canada doesn't want players who can't "make it" in their system taking an alternate route, through Europe. That's just wrong. 

 

Well, it wouldn't be unheard-of for an entity to try to prop up a system that finds its market-share shrinking (however slightly), so I can see the validity of what you're saying about the CBA's response to that change.

 

Re: the Burton Cummings quote, I see his point. I remember reading an interview with a minor league hockey player (it might have been when I lived up in Port Huron, MI in the 70s or maybe in the 1990s when I lived in NC). The reporter asked the player "why  continue in minor-league hockey past the point it becomes apparent that an NHL career won't happen?", and the player replied something like "well, it's either this, or go back to Sudbury and go into the mines." With how the oil and mining industries are doing, even minor-league hockey looks good by comparison.

 

The 18-month time limitation on the scholarships in the CHL is the most ridiculous part, I agree. Despite the very small possibility of making the NHL as an undrafted player, that chance still exists, and the sunset clause basically says "we encouraged you to dream when we could make money from your presence, but once we can't make money from your presence, you're on your own."

 

"Nobody really knows how much money there is in junior hockey because the teams that are privately owned are not compelled to open their books."

Why it might be a good thing for junior teams to pay minimum wage – and be fewer of them:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/why-it-might-be-a-good-thing-for-junior-teams-to-pay-minimum-wage-and-be-fewer-of-them/

 

Well, it's hard to know whether privately-owned teams are making money or not, but I did a search and found that the Erie Otters of the OHL averaged 4481 per-game attendance for 34 home games (that's probably in the top 1/3rd of the OHL), and their season tickets end up being $15 per game for reserved-seat tickets and $16.50 for premium seats (single-game tickets are $25 day of game for premium seats). Even if you assume that all attendees are season ticket holders at $15 a seat, that's over $67K in gate receipts per game. Over 34 home games, that's $2,285,000 in gate receipts at a bare minimum.

 

Last season, the Otters had 27 players on their roster (or, they did at the end of the season). If we assume 35 players for good measure, total gate receipts per player for a season came out to $65,294. If a player gets, say, $100 a week stipend and the team plays that for each player for the whole year, the stipends themselves are $182,000 per year. Billeting costs are unknown, but even if they were paying $200/week/player, you're talking about $7K per week for, say, a 36-week season, or $252,000.

 

Of course, that doesn't add in additional sponsorships, etc. (Side note - I noticed that one of Erie's sponsors is Ironworkers Union Local 3. Wonder what the unionized workers think of the financial arrangements for the players). What's harder to find out is the cost for practice facilities, coaching salaries, etc.

Edited by JonKerfoot

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. . .

 

Well, it's hard to know whether privately-owned teams are making money or not, but I did a search and found that the Erie Otters of the OHL averaged 4481 per-game attendance for 34 home games (that's probably in the top 1/3rd of the OHL), and their season tickets end up being $15 per game for reserved-seat tickets and $16.50 for premium seats (single-game tickets are $25 day of game for premium seats). Even if you assume that all attendees are season ticket holders at $15 a seat, that's over $67K in gate receipts per game. Over 34 home games, that's $2,285,000 in gate receipts at a bare minimum.

 

Last season, the Otters had 27 players on their roster (or, they did at the end of the season). If we assume 35 players for good measure, total gate receipts per player for a season came out to $65,294. If a player gets, say, $100 a week stipend and the team plays that for each player for the whole year, the stipends themselves are $182,000 per year. Billeting costs are unknown, but even if they were paying $200/week/player, you're talking about $7K per week for, say, a 36-week season, or $252,000.

 

Of course, that doesn't add in additional sponsorships, etc. (Side note - I noticed that one of Erie's sponsors is Ironworkers Union Local 3. Wonder what the unionized workers think of the financial arrangements for the players). What's harder to find out is the cost for practice facilities, coaching salaries, etc.

 

In the article someone thought that probably 1/3 made money, 1/3 lost money, and 1/3 broke even.  Don't know how accurate that is . . .

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I know that but I thought it was interesting he took a haircut from what he was making here.  I also think he was way over-valued here from what he actually brought to the team.

 

I also think it's funny people are trying to cook up some reason he wasn't resigned other than this:

 

Riley Nash - versatile but inconsistent (scores goals in spurts) fourth liner who can kill penalties.

I liked Nash on the 4th line.. but McClement can fill the need perhaps..

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Agreed. Jordan is the closest thing we've had to a Rod Brind'Amour since the man himself, and the only real difference I see between the two is that Roddy is more vocal. But in terms of their games, if all our centers model their game on J's, this could be a very strong team for a very long time.

 

I had big concerns whether Jordan would hang in, but I don't anymore--and I think he's going to be a key leader on this team. Will he get the "C"? I hope the players decide, and if they do, I hope he's their choice.

Agree..

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i can see a couple of seasons without a C to see what shakes out.

Came up in Q&A at today's event.  RF answered that a C will be named when he and BP feel it is time, or they'll name 3 alternates.  Clearly indicated the choice will be theirs and not the players.  However, IMO they'll take plenty of input from the players with them having final say.

Edited by Manwolf

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Whatever they do on the Captaincy, they want to avoid the appearance of just handing it to someone.

 

To me this still favors Jordan. If they were to give the C to Jordan, the last thing they would want to do, is just up and do it without at least the appearance of a process. Especially since it's another Staal, and since Eric was traded, and since Jordan got the A before even lacing them up.

 

I do think that Peters and Francis want to see that kind of leadership from Jordan in camp and pre season.

 

I still lay money that the process plays out and Jordan takes the reigns, but that is just me speculating. That speculation includes the idea that with Eric gone the team actually will gravitate that way. Again, pure speculation. No inside info or quotes to base it on.

Edited by remkin

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I was just looking at the Contract Chart page on the Canes site.  Right now Ryan Murphy is in the "In the system" list, not the "Hurricanes roster" list.  Looks like Faulk, Hainsey, Slavin, Pesce, and Hanifin are locks, and slots 6 and 7 are up for grabs at Camp.

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So after Development Camp, I got to thinking about something.

 

The number of forwards on the team, or in the system, who are young and have large potential upside. It is unprecedented for this team.

 

Now first, we all know that our defensive prospects are just simply off the charts. But that is another post. This is just the raw number of potentially good to great forwards that are way below the supposed peak age of 27. They will not all pan out, but we have sooo many bets on the table.

 

On the team:

 

Lindholm: 21. Did score 17 goals two years ago. If he comes into camp in shape, this could be his coming out year.

Teravainen: 21. Very high skill already shown in NHL. This is his second full season.

Rask: 23. Basically has improved every year since arrival. 50 points last year despite injury.

PDG: 22, .41 ppg in first partial season in NHL. Heading into only year 2.

Skinner: 24. Old man of this group. Still 3 years from "prime".  If he puts a full season together could hit 40 goals.

Nordstrom/Nesty: 24/25. Still off peak.

 

In the system:

 

Aho. 18. Will be 19 all season. Really? Everyone on here knows about this phenom.

Gauthier: 18. Massive upside. Probably huge steal of this draft.

Kuokkanen: 18. Aho part 2? Lots of good reports from development camp.

Roy: 19. Big and skilled. Listed as a major steal from last year's draft. Lit up Juniors last year.

Saarela: 19. Scorer. Once an uber elite prospect, fell off and has reportedly gotten back on. Major upside potential.

Zykov: 21. A bit older on this list, but also once a grade A prospect that got injured, wowed in development camp.

Poturalski: 22. Again, older in a younger grouping, but #2 in NCAA in scoring shows upside for sure.

Tolchinksy: 21 (but looks 15). The smurf has super elite slick skills. May or may not translate to NHL, but has upside.

McGinn: 22. Forgotten man in all of this. Still has NHL style game. Down but not yet out. Still has potential.

 

Then there is a whole different tier of guys with skill and potential who could still emerge:

 

Foegele, Smallman, Filipe, and more.

 

That is a lot of guys to try to find 8 to form the future with Old Man Staal just now 27.

Edited by remkin

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