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Realism, bd, occasionally has some bright spots? I mean, could you not follow up with "let them laugh, we'll show them" or something?

Edited by KJUNKANE

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As a fan on the outside looking in I see the following:

 

SKinner-Rask-Stemp

 

Nesty-Jordan-Nordy

 

Aho-Lindy-TT

 

Stahlberg-McClemment-Bickel

 

 I would then proceed to laugh and place us dead last in our division as well.  

 

I think that line up is kind of a Rorschach test.

 

I can see looking at that and not seeing proven NHL scoring, but I can also see looking at that lineup and projecting youth (except Stemp), speed, and talent onto a natural development curve and maybe a couple of breakout years.

 

Personally, I see the later. It could go bad, but if so, we have the cap space and depth to make other moves.

 

Skinner, Rask, Jordan, Lindy and TT, can easily be 50 plus point guys, and Aho, Stemp and maybe even Nesty should push 40.  Then PDG should improve on his 34 point pace of last year too.

 

Its hard to see how that team is any worse than last year's team with feckless Eric and soon to be in Europe Versteeg replaced by TT, Stemp, and Aho. And last year's team didn't finish last. Then project any improvement at all on Lindholm, Rask, and PDG, and the defense?

 

I see the upside. But, if you see the downside, who knows, you could be right. Hope not though.

Edited by remkin

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It's a top 25.  Without duplicates, 5 teams are going to not have a guy on the list, and TB has 2, etc.

 

No one is going to say that first line players is this team's strength.  That is the basis of the angst that has been going on here.  We speculate guys who could elevate to first line status, and we wonder if a team with potentially (3) 2nd lines could do well, etc.  We are all discussing on how to go about getting on that list, but no one is arguing that they wouldn't want to have a guy on that list.

 

JStaal, Rask...  they smell like 2nd line centers to me.  So we'll see if you need one soon enough.

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Heres a list of some of the teams without a guy on that list:

 

Carolina

Ottawa

NJ

MTL

Buffalo

Columbus

Toronto

Arizona

Winnipeg

Vancouver

 

What do they all also have in common?

 

Also, every team with a guy on that list was either a playoff team or a bubble team except Edmonton, and McDavid was out half the year and only 18, and we all know the problems that team has had.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like our direction, but the IC thing could be an issue, and sure seems to correlate with playoffs.

Edited by remkin

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Almost every single one of those teams had a losing record last season.  MTL is exception because they have elite goal tending.  NJ is debatable too.  Most teams who win have a great 1-2C combo.  I just don't see us having a great 1 - 2 C combo. 

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Rask has the potential to be a top line center. He is already a top 6 player, at least for us. J is so good at what he does I would hate it if he is our 1st line center moving forward. He has certainly proven he can be on a scoring line but his value is all the other things he is good at.

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As a fan on the outside looking in I see the following:

 

SKinner-Rask-Stemp

 

Nesty-Jordan-Nordy

 

Aho-Lindy-TT

 

Stahlberg-McClemment-Bickel

 

 I would then proceed to laugh and place us dead last in our division as well.  

Well, if the 4th liners merely repeated their 2015-2016 performances(fairly easy for "Hands Of Cement" McClement), we'd get 33 poits out of 3 players, verses 39 points out of 4 players the year before.  If Bickell could equal his 2014-15 numbers, we'd get 59 points out of our 4th line.  That would be a huge improvement.

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Rask has the potential to be a top line center. He is already a top 6 player, at least for us. J is so good at what he does I would hate it if he is our 1st line center moving forward. He has certainly proven he can be on a scoring line but his value is all the other things he is good at.

 

Yeah I do think Jordan is kind of a wild card on this issue since he can neutralize the other guy's IC. Also, I'm probably alone in this, but I actually think Jordan has 65-70 point potential.

 

I also think Rask can take another step up. He has done so every year so far, and he was playing injured part of last year. A step up from 50 points starts getting you in the discussion.

 

And finally, when drafted #5 overall the idea of Lindholm eventually becoming a 1C was not considered really unlikely. Clearly he has a ways to go, but you never know....

Edited by remkin

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Well, if the 4th liners merely repeated their 2015-2016 performances(fairly easy for "Hands Of Cement" McClement), we'd get 33 poits out of 3 players, verses 39 points out of 4 players the year before.  If Bickell could equal his 2014-15 numbers, we'd get 59 points out of our 4th line.  That would be a huge improvement.

 

 

McClement is the dark cloud with me.  Sure, we all want to add a couple bona fide top-liners, but at this point in our rebuild i'm comfortable with the past production and/or projected production of everyone else in those lines.  McClement, though...

 

I'm glad he's in the last year of his contract.  Not exactly shedding any tears about Hainsey being in the same situation, but at least he provides a veteran presence on the defense.

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McClement is the dark cloud with me.  Sure, we all want to add a couple bona fide top-liners, but at this point in our rebuild i'm comfortable with the past production and/or projected production of everyone else in those lines.  McClement, though...

 

I'm glad he's in the last year of his contract.  Not exactly shedding any tears about Hainsey being in the same situation, but at least he provides a veteran presence on the defense.

 

Yeah, I don't know why the guy's production fell off, but it did. Earlier I was hoping we'd keep Nash, and trade McClement. Not sure what the deal was with Nash, seemed like something odd going on, who knows, but we stuck with McClement, maybe with a couple of good wingers McClement will pick it up a bit.

Edited by remkin

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So where does Di Giuseppe fit in?  I can see him back with Skinner and Rask and Stemp skating with J. But then Nesty is odd man out. I don't see DiGi on a fourth line.

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So where does Di Giuseppe fit in?  I can see him back with Skinner and Rask and Stemp skating with J. But then Nesty is odd man out. I don't see DiGi on a fourth line.

 

My guess is that it is between Aho and DiG as to who is odd man out and sent to Charlotte as they are the only two forwards that are waiver exempt. If both are clearly better than McClemment and Bickel, then maybe both are in and one of them is sent to Charlotte through waivers. My guess is that Phil will be bouncing back and forth from Charlotte throughout the season.

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I think he played some on the fourth line last season.

 

I think your right. I'm just not sure he is the type of player we are trying to slot to play there. Maybe.  I keep looking at the roster and it still feels incomplete to me. I'm sure this has more to do with having not seen many of our adds actually skate as a Cane.

 

I can't wait for training camp this season.

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My guess is that it is between Aho and DiG as to who is odd man out and sent to Charlotte as they are the only two forwards that are waiver exempt. If both are clearly better than McClemment and Bickel, then maybe both are in and one of them is sent to Charlotte through waivers. My guess is that Phil will be bouncing back and forth from Charlotte throughout the season.

 

I think that is a good guess. With all the hype I can't imagine that Aho isn't going to start the season. Bickel seems to be the question mark. I think he has to have an outstanding training camp. But I really don't know what RF still has up his sleeve, if anything.

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Personally, I like PDG's offensive upside better than both Nestrasil and Nordstram, and he doesn't take a back seat to either of those two players when it comes to puck possession.  He's tenacious on the puck, has good hands, and a quick release and shot, and he's way faster than either Nordy or Nesty.

 

I wouldn't count him out, but there is only so much room.

 

Good point about being waiver exempt though MinJa, you could be right.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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I see PDG as a great example of our depth now. I know he is not a prototypical 4th liner, and Peters wanted him to really showcase offense last year, but I sort of see him as our #10 forward at this moment. Not really so much a 4th liner as the first sub for any top 9 injury. Last year that was Gerbe/Terry.

 

I agree PDG has more upside, and easily could or should be a top 9 guy. He's kind of interesting to me because he seems to be loosely following the Rask progression, where he never really kills any of the lower levels, but just keeps progressing, even at the NHL level. Last year was his first NHL level, and it really seems reasonable to project improvement this year. He was on a 34 point pace last year, so that would be a lot of offense if he improved.

 

So I agree he has more offensive upside than Nordstrom, and probably Nesty too. Thing is that they cycle and play so well with Jordan, it's hard to see replacing them.

 

I just feel good that our #10 forward has up to 40 point potential.

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I see PDG as a great example of our depth now. I know he is not a prototypical 4th liner, and Peters wanted him to really showcase offense last year, but I sort of see him as our #10 forward at this moment. Not really so much a 4th liner as the first sub for any top 9 injury. Last year that was Gerbe/Terry.

 

I agree PDG has more upside, and easily could or should be a top 9 guy. He's kind of interesting to me because he seems to be loosely following the Rask progression, where he never really kills any of the lower levels, but just keeps progressing, even at the NHL level. Last year was his first NHL level, and it really seems reasonable to project improvement this year. He was on a 34 point pace last year, so that would be a lot of offense if he improved.

 

So I agree he has more offensive upside than Nordstrom, and probably Nesty too. Thing is that they cycle and play so well with Jordan, it's hard to see replacing them.

 

I just feel good that our #10 forward has up to 40 point potential.

 

Not trying to single you out Rem, but I wonder if we are all missing the point of what Ron and Peters are trying to do when we are talking about our fourth line as a line PDG shouldn't be on. Our fourth line is probably not going to be a "checking" or the prototypical fourth line of old with bruisers or energy guys that can't score. It is probably going to be made up of guys that play hard (hopefully the whole team will) and just aren't ready for the same number of minutes as the other three lines. If this is the case, I don't see our 10th best forward being left off the team because he "isn't a fourth line guy", but our 13th best forward being in the press box or back in Charlotte. I think our team is being built to run like the Penguins did in the playoffs...four lines that can play and organized by who plays well together and gets things done. Some lines will get more minutes than others due to how well they are playing, and matchups, but all will be counted on to contribute.

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I don't disagree Min. There is the issue that ideally if a guy has 40 point potential you want him getting more than 4th line minutes ideally, and even if we try to roll 4 lines, that 4th line will invariably come up short on minutes. Also will tend to get D zone starts. The thing is, you aren't going through 82 games with all top 9 forwards the whole time.

 

It does kind of dovetail the whole McClement thing. I think a 4th line of PDG/Nash/Stalberg would have put some points up, then PDG could slide up as needed. McClement plays sound hockey, and kills penatlies but did not even hit good 4th line productivity last year.

 

The other wild card is Bickell. If that guy looks good, that could push PDG back to Charlotte possibly.

 

Nice to have depth, but tougher to be a prospect.

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I am kind of aligning with MinJa, the old definition of our fourth line is likely changing.  It will be interesting to see how that part of the forward group develops in camp - which can't get here too quickly for me.

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Nice observations and good points on the fourth line makeup MinJaBen. I lean more toward what you outline as a Francis/Peters fourth line. I still think the fourth line needs to be a role playing line of energy,checking and toughness at the right time but agree the old size them up and knock them down fourth line is fading into the past.

 

Increased ice time for the fourth line is a given (I think) and the ability to contribute to scoring is a must and special team (PK) time would be an advantage. What I'm really happy to see is what I see is correct is that the old Canes formula of using the fourth line as a training ground or just a slot to place an underused player is gone.

 

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I don't disagree Min. There is the issue that ideally if a guy has 40 point potential you want him getting more than 4th line minutes ideally, and even if we try to roll 4 lines, that 4th line will invariably come up short on minutes. Also will tend to get D zone starts. The thing is, you aren't going through 82 games with all top 9 forwards the whole time.

 

It does kind of dovetail the whole McClement thing. I think a 4th line of PDG/Nash/Stalberg would have put some points up, then PDG could slide up as needed. McClement plays sound hockey, and kills penatlies but did not even hit good 4th line productivity last year.

 

The other wild card is Bickell. If that guy looks good, that could push PDG back to Charlotte possibly.

 

Nice to have depth, but tougher to be a prospect.

 

And isn't that the point - the tougher it gets to be a prospect, the better the prospects will be when they break through to the big club?

 

I have to agree with MinJaBen - since Aho and PDG are both waiver-exempt, they're the most likely to bounce between Raleigh and Charlotte, and with the 'hype' Aho has gotten, he's more likely to stick with the Hurricanes than PDG.

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And there goes my hope of us getting at least ONE decent sniper during free agency.  Either he didn't want to come here, or Franchise didn't want to pony up that kind of $$...either of which is downright stupid!

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