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Pre Season and Training Camp 2016

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21 minutes ago, danimal-ch1 said:

Yes, I'm concerned too. 

Maybe you and BD should take your "concern," found a new forum, and enjoy each other's company. :lol:

 

But seriously danimal, your comment that we got no top-six forwards is just not right. Stemp is a top-six forward by any standard. He put up 51 points last year. I think you and BD (continue to) miss (or choose to ignore) that BP and RF are doing just what they said they would when they took over: Build an organization from the ground up.

 

Doing that is expensive. Not now, with guys on ELCs, but over the next several years, when you have to re-up the ones you want. Shooting our wad on some "proven" guy and committing salary to him for the long term - which is what all "proven" guys want, term - would make retaining the guys we consider our future impossible, as we've just witnessed for 10 years, with the Captain Who Shall Remain Nameless.

 

That approach is totally the opposite of what this org has committed to build, and is not business-savvy. I don't think you disagree with the approach as vehemently as BD, who is (understandably) upset that we haven't made the playoffs in years. None of us is happy about that, but some have realized why: The presence of contracts that forbid bringing in, developing, and retaining many talented players, instead of gambling big money that just a couple would be enough to do the job.

 

BD seems to think we, as fans, are owed a playoff appearance. He has said anything less than that will make this season "a bust" and has inferred that BP should be fired if we miss. Based on such comments, it's logical to conclude that BD is willing to trade long-term organizational success for a long-shot playoff appearance. That's fine, it's his right to want that. But I'm really, really happy that the brain trust sees it 180-degrees differently, because what I want is a team that develops together, plays for each other, and passes that same ethic to each successive generation of players.

 

After pursuing the other approach for six years (2006-07 thru 2012-13) with a single playoff appearance to show for it, I'm ready to give RF/BP an equal chance to work their plan. By improving by 15 points in one year, they've won my trust in their judgment. If the cost of keeping JR on the payroll about three years longer than we should have is that it takes five or six years to turn this ship around, so be it--although I think we're going to see it happen a whole lot sooner.

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For years I dismissed what Whaler fans told me.  Now I kind of get where they were coming from.  Teams like Buffalo have no idea how lucky they are.  While they don't exactly win, they are not afraid to spend money and have a owner committed to winning because he makes all his money from his gas mines.  If only we were to be so lucky.  It's one thing to lose.  But to lose while being the lowest payroll team in the hardest division in the NHL....  That's just plain stupid.  So either RF is about to look like a genius if he finishes anywhere from 8th on up or PK is going to look like a moron when this team falters and management wonders why butts are not in the seats....

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PK did spend close to the ceiling a few years back (maybe 2013-14?).  My guess is that JR talked him into investing in the team for a playoff appearance that year and when it didn't happen and the team continued to lose money PK closed his wallet.  I'm sure PKs other financial concerns influenced spending as well.

 

My hope is that as the Canes improve and attendance/ revenue goes up, PK will again be open to shelling out the $s.  Which will be necessary in order to retain our yutes as their ELCs start to expire.

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59 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Maybe you and BD should take your "concern," found a new forum, and enjoy each other's company. :lol:

 

But seriously danimal, your comment that we got no top-six forwards is just not right. Stemp is a top-six forward by any standard. He put up 51 points last year. I think you and BD (continue to) miss (or choose to ignore) that BP and RF are doing just what they said they would when they took over: Build an organization from the ground up.

 

Doing that is expensive. Not now, with guys on ELCs, but over the next several years, when you have to re-up the ones you want. Shooting our wad on some "proven" guy and committing salary to him for the long term - which is what all "proven" guys want, term - would make retaining the guys we consider our future impossible, as we've just witnessed for 10 years, with the Captain Who Shall Remain Nameless.

 

That approach is totally the opposite of what this org has committed to build, and is not business-savvy. I don't think you disagree with the approach as vehemently as BD, who is (understandably) upset that we haven't made the playoffs in years. None of us is happy about that, but some have realized why: The presence of contracts that forbid bringing in, developing, and retaining many talented players, instead of gambling big money that just a couple would be enough to do the job.

 

BD seems to think we, as fans, are owed a playoff appearance. He has said anything less than that will make this season "a bust" and has inferred that BP should be fired if we miss. Based on such comments, it's logical to conclude that BD is willing to trade long-term organizational success for a long-shot playoff appearance. That's fine, it's his right to want that. But I'm really, really happy that the brain trust sees it 180-degrees differently, because what I want is a team that develops together, plays for each other, and passes that same ethic to each successive generation of players.

 

After pursuing the other approach for six years (2006-07 thru 2012-13) with a single playoff appearance to show for it, I'm ready to give RF/BP an equal chance to work their plan. By improving by 15 points in one year, they've won my trust in their judgment. If the cost of keeping JR on the payroll about three years longer than we should have is that it takes five or six years to turn this ship around, so be it--although I think we're going to see it happen a whole lot sooner.

Well first off I am always one of the last ones to write the team off when it goes on a losing streak compared to other sky is falling members here!  I'm generally pretty positive about our team but the reality is we have  a "no name" line up hoping for success from young guys stepping up.  Stemp had a decent year last year, doesn't mean he really is an NHL top 6. This another question mark, will he score 50 again or fall back to 30.

 

I think the thing we are most frustrated about is that we could have done both.  Build the team from the ground up(which I'm lovin RF's drafting and acquisitions of prospects) and use our tons of extra cap space money to bring in a proven top 6 guy or two to possibly help us make the playoffs before the team is sold off(not trying to start that one up again but it will happen if we don't start winning and getting attendance up this year and next)

. I believe RF tried and put some offers on a couple guys, they just didn't want to come here. I believe he will be looking all season for a trade that could get us that guy or two.  He knows we need it, its pretty obvious that this line up is missing goal scorers.

As of now our top 6 is somewhere between a joke and a possible nice surprise If all the stars align.

I believe it could go either way, but it sure would have been nice to spend a little of that money and get us a natural goal scorer.  As of now, Skinner is it and lets hope he doesn't slump or get injured.

 

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1 hour ago, bluedevil58 said:

So either RF is about to look like a genius if he finishes anywhere from 8th on up or PK is going to look like a moron when this team falters and management wonders why butts are not in the seats....

This is the kind of "either-or" thinking that I just don't get. This season (IMO) is not a bust if we don't get in, just because you say it is. But what if we're competitive and around the cut line all year, but just miss? What does RF "look like" then, BD? 

 

Seriously, you make false equivalencies. Do you really think Buffalo is in better shape? A team that made the playoffs just twice in the last nine years--and went out in the first round both times, despite finishing first in their division the first time, and squeaking in the second? That is EXACTLY the problem with committing big bucks for long terms to a guy or two in the Salary Cap era: It breeds inconsistency. I'm thankful we've got a management team that recognizes that and is working proactively to overcome it. Refusing to even acknowledge their work and what they are (successfully, by the way) doing, might make you feel good, but speaking purely for myself, life's too short to walk around with a black cloud over my head. I follow this team because I love hockey. You seem to follow it because you love complaining. That's fine, it just wears (has worn) thin. 

 

I hope you can discover the joy and enthusiasm for the game that all our yutes have shown all preseason and get on board with it, because that's what they need more than anything at this point. But I can't escape the feeling that you'd be happy to see the team struggle, just so you can say, "I told you so." That's not a fan, at least not by any definition I've ever seen.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Torres released, 8 others off to Charlotte or Juniors.

 

The Hurricanes assigned Jake Bean (Calgary - WHL) and Julien Gauthier (Val d'Or - QMJHL) to their respective junior teams, and Aleksi Saarela to Lukko of Liiga (Finnish elite league). Goaltender Alex Nedeljkovic, defensemen Dennis Robertson and Jake Chelios and forwards Andrew Poturalski and Valentin Zykov have been assigned to Carolina's American Hockey League (AHL) affiliate, the Charlotte Checkers. Forward Raffi Torres has been released from his tryout. 

Edited by LakeLivin

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23 minutes ago, danimal-ch1 said:

I think the thing we are most frustrated about is that we could have done both.  Build the team from the ground up(which I'm lovin RF's drafting and acquisitions of prospects) and use our tons of extra cap space money to bring in a proven top 6 guy or two to possibly help us make the playoffs before the team is sold off(not trying to start that one up again but it will happen if we don't start winning and getting attendance up this year and next)

. I believe RF tried and put some offers on a couple guys, they just didn't want to come here.

Well, you can believe that if you like, but it's in direct opposition to what RF has said. Look at the free agents who were available. They were all either over 30 wanting ridiculous term, or they were Kyle Okposo, who is just under 30 and wanted ridiculous money AND term. It boils down to this: Big name free agents are still negotiating like the Salary Cap doesn't exist. But it does. 

 

Within the next four years, we are going to have to sign the following:

 

Lindholm

Aho

Teravainen

PDG

Bean

Gauthier

Hanifin

Pesce

Slavin

Fleury

McKeown

 

and this doesn't even take into account others like Skinner and Faulk. Tell me which guys on that list you're willing to sacrifice to bring in a (so called) "big-name" guy at 6 or 7 million for seven (or more) years. Go ahead! And then tell me how we "can afford" it again, i.e., how we still keep the pipeline stocked with quality prospects, instead of Drayson Bowmans, Zack Boychuks and Ryan Murphys. It didn't work for the last seven years, and the reason is that we had a 9 million commitment to a "big name scorer" who wasn't, so much. You seem to want to roll the same dice, on the *possibility* of a short-term reward, when the Cap era dictates that success is dependent on building for the long haul. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I don't like to complain.  I complain because I don't see this team being here much longer unless people start showing up to games.  But let me answer your question.  The only players on that list that have proven to be worth while are the following:

 

Hanifin

Slavin

Pesce (debatable)

 

It's all on D.  Past that every other player listed is a 3rd or 4th liner and can easily be replaced via UFA or has yet to be a proven regular NHLer.  By our standards though, that list probably has 5 top 6 forwards on it.

Edited by bluedevil58

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24 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

 

This is the kind of "either-or" thinking that I just don't get. This season (IMO) is not a bust if we don't get in, just because you say it is. But what if we're competitive and around the cut line all year, but just miss? What does RF "look like" then, BD? 

 

Seriously, you make false equivalencies. Do you really think Buffalo is in better shape--a team that made the playoffs just twice in the last nine years--and went out in the first round both times, despite finishing first in their division the first time, and squeaking in the second? That is EXACTLY the problem with committing big bucks for long terms to a guy or two in the Salary Cap era: It breeds inconsistency. I'm thankful we've got a management team that recognizes that and is working proactively to overcome it. Refusing to even acknowledge their work and what they are (successfully, by the way) doing, might make you feel good, but speaking purely for myself, life's too short to walk around with a black cloud over my head. I follow this team because I love hockey. You seem to follow it because you love complaining. That's fine, it just wears (has worn) thin. 

 

I hope you can discover the joy and enthusiasm for the game that all our yutes have shown all preseason and get on board with it, because that's what they need more than anything at this point. But I can't escape the feeling that you'd be happy to see the team struggle, just so you can say, "I told you so." That's not a fan, at least not by any definition I've ever seen.

I think any season they don't get in is a bust. Isn't that the reason they play the games? I really want to see this team do well. I also think that the scoring issues have not been solved. There are too many "what ifs". If the young guys step up, it might be a good year. If they don't, it will be just like every season since 2009.

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49 minutes ago, LakeLivin said:

PK did spend close to the ceiling a few years back (maybe 2013-14?).  My guess is that JR talked him into investing in the team for a playoff appearance that year and when it didn't happen and the team continued to lose money PK closed his wallet.  I'm sure PKs other financial concerns influenced spending as well.

 

My hope is that as the Canes improve and attendance/ revenue goes up, PK will again be open to shelling out the $s.  Which will be necessary in order to retain our yutes as their ELCs start to expire.

 

There are so many things wrong with this statement.  Look at the Sabres.  Seriously, go look at their cap numbers.  They are already near the cap limit.  I'm not even talking about the fact that they are a top 10 cap spender and bottom 10 team.  They have so many big contracts that they're not going to be able to afford Eichel, Reinhart, Nylander, and Ristoleinan while keeping the guys they already have. They're going to constantly be reshuffling the deck.

 

Look at the Minnesota Wild.  They broke their bank signing Parise and Suter.  And while they have made the playoffs every year since, they have no shot at actually winning it all.  They have no cap room to get the players they need, and they're always in the middle of the draft when all the top players are gone.

 

If anything, PK and RF look like geniuses for being a bubble team and a lower cap team.

 

And to danimal's point, there was opportunity to improve, but at what cost? Stamkos obviously wasn't leaving TB, and the only other true fit for us was Okposo, who received so much money up front, and he's never scored 30 goals in a season.  The only top forward traded this offseason was Hall, and that obviously would've cost us Faulk.

 

The only thing I would've done differently was maybe give up the 21st pick for Bishop or Fleury, but I can see why RF was hesitant.  I do feel as now that we're overstocked on D, and getting full on forwards and goalies, now might be the time to gamble a little bit on trades.  Maybe use our picks to move up higher in the draft, or acquiring that forward.

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28 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

hope you can discover the joy and enthusiasm for the game that all our yutes have shown all preseason and get on board with it, because that's what they need more than anything at this point.

Are you sayin you have accepted a "losing culture" for now as long as the yutes are having fun and developing?  Why can't we have both?  We have the cap space.  If its because PK doesn't have the $ than BD58's concern is a valid one. If its because RF is waiting on the right move that will work with our future also than I trust him.  The point is, we are not going to win much this year with this line up.  we need help scoring..........bad.  I can't depend on Aho or Stemp to do it.  If they do than great, if this line up surprises than great.  On paper its looking pretty bad up front.  I'm glad RF didn't do any of those 5yr 7mil deals on the FA's this summer.  But it doesn't change the fact that we need some serious help up front. Especially if someone like Jordan,Rask, or Skinner go down for a long period of time.

 

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6 minutes ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

 

There are so many things wrong with this statement.  Look at the Sabres.  Seriously, go look at their cap numbers.  They are already near the cap limit.  I'm not even talking about the fact that they are a top 10 cap spender and bottom 10 team.  They have so many big contracts that they're not going to be able to afford Eichel, Reinhart, Nylander, and Ristoleinan while keeping the guys they already have. They're going to constantly be reshuffling the deck.

 

Look at the Minnesota Wild.  They broke their bank signing Parise and Suter.  And while they have made the playoffs every year since, they have no shot at actually winning it all.  They have no cap room to get the players they need, and they're always in the middle of the draft when all the top players are gone.

 

If anything, PK and RF look like geniuses for being a bubble team and a lower cap team.

 

And to danimal's point, there was opportunity to improve, but at what cost? Stamkos obviously wasn't leaving TB, and the only other true fit for us was Okposo, who received so much money up front, and he's never scored 30 goals in a season.  The only top forward traded this offseason was Hall, and that obviously would've cost us Faulk.

 

The only thing I would've done differently was maybe give up the 21st pick for Bishop or Fleury, but I can see why RF was hesitant.  I do feel as now that we're overstocked on D, and getting full on forwards and goalies, now might be the time to gamble a little bit on trades.  Maybe use our picks to move up higher in the draft, or acquiring that forward.

 

Umm, I think my post you quoted wasn't the one you meant to quote?

Edited by LakeLivin

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5 minutes ago, danimal-ch1 said:

Are you sayin you have accepted a "losing culture" for now as long as the yutes are having fun and developing?  Why can't we have both?  We have the cap space.

I'm not saying that at all, and you know it.

 

We DON'T have the cap space, danimal, not for as long as we would need it. That's the whole point. You could pay Okposo or someone else $6 million this year, thinking "we have the cap space." Fortunately RF is more farsighted than that. Okposo wanted (and got) $6 million for SEVEN years. He will be 35 in the final year of his deal. Eric's wheels came off at 31. Is that really a gamble you're willing to take? If so, IMO, you're spending like a drunken sailor Jimmy Rutherford. Been there. Done that. Didn't work.

 

Even if Okposo is amazing, what happens two years into that contract, when you have no money to re-sign the players you've invested so much to develop? (I notice you conveniently dodged my challenge to pick prospects you'd be willing to sacrifice.) Would you have rather signed Okposo than re-upping the much younger (and more skilled) Rask for the same term? Than having the funds available to either re-up Teravainen (assuming he works out) or to go in another direction (if he doesn't)? 

 

Managing payroll means keeping those kinds of options available, yet you and BD ignore that. You also seem to ignore that our prospects utterly dominated the Prospects Tournament this year: 20 goals in five games. Consistent winning happens from the bottom up, not the top down. I'm thankful we finally have management that understands this, even though some fans (apparently) do not.

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I want to point out that you're assuming several of the players you listed will pan out and be resigned and that we need to make room for them.  It's fine to say "stay the course."  I get it I really do.  But I also get that this is not a typical hockey market.  People around here are used to winning and will accept nothing less.  Yes, this area is chalk full of fair weather fans that will only show up to games if the team is winning.  If the team stops winning, and fans stop showing up, and the team continues its losing ways...no fans will show up and then we will enjoy all this magnificent cup runs when this team is playing in a Canadian city.

 

Like I said there is a very fine line between building from the draft and also going out and acquiring elite / top end help in some shape or form.  I am not saying we go out and acquire Crosby or Stamkos.  But somebody like a Justin Williams or Kucherov?  Absolutely!  In closing, this team is at the very bottom of the league in cap space by a significant margin.  The margin is so significant that this team could have signed Okposo for 6M and still be the lowest team in the league.  Let me say this again.  The Canes could have dished out 6M for him and still be at the very bottom in spending.  The top 6 is a complete joke.  And by the way, in an NHL league where over half of the teams make it to the playoffs.  It absolutely is playoffs or bust!  There is not a single team out there that has 18M in cap space aside from us.  If having 18M in cap space is such a brilliant idea then why in the world is no other team doing just that?

Edited by bluedevil58

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4 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

I want to point out that you're assuming several of the players you listed will pan out and be resigned and that we need to make room for them.  It's fine to say "stay the course."  I get it I really do.  But I also get that this is not a typical hockey market.  People around here are used to winning and will accept nothing less.  Yes, this area is chalk full of fair weather fans that will only show up to games if the team is winning.  If the team stops winning, and fans stop showing up, and the team continues its losing ways...no fans will show up and then we will enjoy all this magnificent cup runs when this team is playing in a Canadian city.

 

Like I said there is a very fine line between building from the draft and also going out and acquiring elite / top end help in some shape or form.  I am not saying we go out and acquire Crosby or Stamkos.  But somebody like a Justin Williams or Kucherov?  Absolutely!  In closing, this team is at the very bottom of the league in cap space by a significant margin.  The margin is so significant that this team could have signed Okposo for 6M and still be the lowest team in the league.  Let me say this again.  The Canes could have dished out 6M for him and still be at the very bottom in spending.  The top 6 is a complete joke.  And by the way, in an NHL league where over half of the teams make it to the playoffs.  It absolutely is playoffs or bust!

Back to ignore.

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8 minutes ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

Sorry.  That was meant for BD.

 

No problem PK, the 2 posts together just jumped out at me as a non sequitur.

Edited by LakeLivin

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I think we should remember that this is year 4 of what has become apparently a 5 year rebuild. I certainly believe you have to add top end talent at sometime in a rebuild but it doesn't need to be at the beginning of this season. I'm as unsure as many how this team will do this season. I'm hopeful but unsure. My expectations are we make the playoffs or at the very least be competitive from beginning to end.

 

Skinner and Staal are already top end talents, Faulk is close. We have lots of young guns that have that potential but remember not everyone of the prospects will pan out. You don't need them to. You do need a couple to excel and a handful to emerge as bonifide NHLers. That will be the core you build around when you shop a player.

 

You notice I avoided the term elite because honestly that term is used for very, very good players but not always reserved for the best of the best.

 

This team is moving in the right direction and in a rebuild that is all you can ask for IMO

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I'm not saying that at all, and you know it.

 

We DON'T have the cap space, danimal, not for as long as we would need it. That's the whole point. You could pay Okposo or someone else $6 million this year, thinking "we have the cap space." Fortunately RF is more farsighted than that. Okposo wanted (and got) $6 million for SEVEN years. He will be 35 in the final year of his deal. Eric's wheels came off at 31. Is that really a gamble you're willing to take? If so, IMO, you're spending like a drunken sailor Jimmy Rutherford. Been there. Done that. Didn't work.

 

Even if Okposo is amazing, what happens two years into that contract, when you have no money to re-sign the players you've invested so much to develop? (I notice you conveniently dodged my challenge to pick prospects you'd be willing to sacrifice.) Would you have rather signed Okposo than re-upping the much younger (and more skilled) Rask for the same term? Than having the funds available to either re-up Teravainen (assuming he works out) or to go in another direction (if he doesn't)? 

 

Managing payroll means keeping those kinds of options available, yet you and BD ignore that. You also seem to ignore that our prospects utterly dominated the Prospects Tournament this year: 20 goals in five games. Consistent winning happens from the bottom up, not the top down. I'm thankful we finally have management that understands this, even though some fans (apparently) do not.

Sorry but now that we have an awesome future with the youths and that part of the team is taken care of, its time to figure out how to win this year.  win now.  If that means spending a little more money than I'm down.  In a couple years RF is a smart man and will figure out how to get signed who he wants signed.

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2 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

The only players on that list that have proven to be worth while are the following:

 

Hanifin

Slavin

Pesce (debatable)

 

Wow, you certainly have a very interesting definition of proven. One years worth of play at a decent level is proven? Glad you are not the GM...

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One thing you can't ignore in the free agency thing is the upcoming expansion draft.  Signing that big UFA this summer is going to cost a team a protection slot, and cause the team to lose another asset.  Right now, the Canes are in good shape for the expansion draft if they can wheel Murphy out there 35 times.  Yeah, I wanted a big splash this summer, but I understand why it didn't happen.  Okposo was the guy I was eyeballin', but the term was long, and he may not have wanted to sign here anyway (a point missed by most people).  We also didn't have a John Tavares to feed him the puck.

 

RF is playing the long game.  I can dig it.

Edited by super_dave_1

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45 minutes ago, danimal-ch1 said:

Sorry but now that we have an awesome future with the youths and that part of the team is taken care of, its time to figure out how to win this year. 

I agree with that. But the best free agent on the market in terms of experience, playmaking, and preserving cash to use at the TD is now on our team: Stempniak. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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17 minutes ago, super_dave_1 said:

One thing you can't ignore in the free agency thing is the upcoming expansion draft.  Signing that big UFA this summer is going to cost a team a protection slot, and cause the team to lose another asset.

 

This is so true. The expansion draft changes everything in the short term but it will also afford some opportunities later this season

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1 minute ago, OBXer said:

This is so true. The expansion draft changes everything in the short term but it will also afford some opportunities later this season

x2

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