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If there is such a thing as the "heart" of a team, I don't know how you'd choose between Skinner! and Ward so far this year.  And Slavin looks like he may contend for the title somewhere down the road.   

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Watching the NHL Network the other night and they were commenting about Bobrovsky. How he slimmed down and is carrying about 15 less pounds and how for a goalie during the course of the game means less stress and strain on the back, knees and groin. To me Cam looks the fittest he has in a very long time and I wonder if the same could be said for him. He has become a prominent leader in the locker-room with all the youngsters currently here. He has become a steadying force on the back-end that takes a lot of stress off the youngsters playing in front of him.

 

Skinner has definitely stepped it up and is no longer that immature squawking at every call youth and has become a mature veteran that is leading this team not only by his play on the ice, but his voice in the locker-room as well.

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41 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

Switching gears.  Staal is on pace for 78 points this season.  Must not be washed up after all.  Who would have thought that if you put an elite winger with an elite center they both would really peoduce?

 

Which elite winger would that be.  Tell me that elite winger's stats.

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17 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

 but I'm not sure what value that has if his defense is as - frankly - bad as we're seeing. I of course think he's got the hockey IQ to be better in his own end. But right now I'm seeing Justin Faulk without the offense. 

 

 

Noah doesn't have the goal scoring in comparison to Faulk  2 vs 7 but has more assists 13 vs 11 and only a difference of 3 points. Both are -9 currently. I don't see either as a defensive liability at this point currently. I was critical of Faulk early on but I am convinced he was suffering physically even before his known injury. Noah has made some mistakes but I view those as mental errors and am hoping he is learning as he develops..

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2 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

 

I'd love to get to the point where we don't bring up one of our yutes until he's already performed at a level in the AHL (or high level foreign men's league) that basically demands an NHL look.  While we've got some nice defensive prospects, I'm not aware of any of them playing up to that standard.  So I"m not at all against bringing back Hainsey, especially if it's to play on the 3rd line or even for depth. 

 Lake I think we're pretty much there up front, and a year away on the back end. We have PDG and Nestrasil in Charlotte now. Both of them likely would have been solid fixtures on past Canes teams. Guys like Poturalski, Wallmark, Zykov and others are probably 3-4 deep from a call up.

 

Now in goal.....

 

But! Ned stood on his head (hey that rhymes (a call back to the Lack Taco comercial)) last night in his first game back in Charlotte. 42 saves perfect in shootout. So there's that.

http://www.gocheckers.com/game-recaps/alex-nedeljkovic-leads-checkers-to-shootout-win-over-cleveland

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Duchene + 2017 2nd round pick

for

Hanifin + 2017 3rd round pick

 

I don't like the deal straight up. And I'm not sold I'd be happy with this trade either. But we'd gain a very high 2nd round pick, an area we've been successful in drafting, giving us a total of three 2nd rounders in the draft. So while we'd be giving up a fantastic prospect, we'd also be gaining an asset to acquire another great prospect. With three 2nd rounders we could potentially move back into the 1st round.

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27 minutes ago, TheFaulker said:

Duchene + 2017 2nd round pick

for

Hanifin + 2017 3rd round pick

 

I don't like the deal straight up. And I'm not sold I'd be happy with this trade either. But we'd gain a very high 2nd round pick, an area we've been successful in drafting, giving us a total of three 2nd rounders in the draft. So while we'd be giving up a fantastic prospect, we'd also be gaining an asset to acquire another great prospect. With three 2nd rounders we could potentially move back into the 1st round.

 

The deal is good but not what the Avs are going to accept right now.

 

our focus needs to be on a good back up goalie.  The O looked solid and we may need a solid but cheap addition for playoff insurance (Hanzal from PHX or Berglund from STL).  To even have a serious playoff shot we need a backup goalie.  BAD!

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5 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

I wouldn't be surprised if RF looked at bringing Liles back for depth and to continue mentoring, especially given our expansion draft situation.  But Boston overpaid for Liles at $2m for the year imo, and I can't see RF getting into a bidding war, especially over a 35yo d-man.

Nothing will surprise me with RF, but that said, I'm faaaaar more comfortable with Tennyson paired with Hanifin than with anybody else he's been paired with this season. I do agree that he's suffered because of the revolving door of partners, and very hopeful the Murphy ship has finally sailed once and for all.

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3 hours ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

 

Which elite winger would that be.  Tell me that elite winger's stats.

Exactly, Eric got comfortable here and wasn't held accountable. A time (after time, after time)-tested recipe for mediocrity. He's making a third of what he did and lighting it up? Good for him--and further confirmation that we overpaid (and over-coddled) him.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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4 hours ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

 

Which elite winger would that be.  Tell me that elite winger's stats.

Parise is an elite winger.  I am of the opinion that if we would have gotten a Nash or a Parise to compliment Staal we would have not seen this 7 year drought.  Management really squandered the opportunity while he was in his prime.  I realize therected was the while Seminole fiasco so I guess we tried kind of and it didn't work out.

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4 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

Parise is an elite winger.  I am of the opinion that if we would have gotten a Nash or a Parise to compliment Staal we would have not seen this 7 year drought.  Management really squandered the opportunity while he was in his prime.  I realize therected was the while Seminole fiasco so I guess we tried kind of and it didn't work out.

 

Show me his stats.  I see a Parise that's 8th on his team in pts, and who's been injured a quarter of a season.  And let's not forget the flop while he was in NY.  This is a clear cut case of a player needing a change of scenery, which is fine.  I have no ill feelings for Eric, and so far it's working out for both parties, so no harm no foul.

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3 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

I am of the opinion that if we would have gotten a Nash or a Parise to compliment Staal we would have not seen this 7 year drought.

Blue, I've asked you this question plenty of times already and you always ignore it. Maybe you'll answer this time.

 

We didn't keep Erik Cole - or go out and get another elite winger after he departed - because we didn't have the money. And we didn't have the money because JR, despite knowing how much PK was giving him to work with, MISJUDGED Eric's ability. He thought he was a Crosby or an Ovi, and he isn't. JR paid too much for both E and Cam. So again, the question: 

 

How would you have gotten that winger WITHOUT THE MONEY TO DO IT?

 

It's easy to piss and moan about the org being "cheap." But JR knew what he had to work with and mismanaged the budget, simple as that. We're now seeing what happens when a GM works within the budget and builds for the long term. JR could have done it, especially coming off a Cup. Instead he shot his wad on a kid who was nowhere near ready to do what JR was asking him to. JR could have told coaches to hold Eric accountable, and maybe squeeze out of him, for this org, the kind of performances he's now giving the Wild. He could have done a lot of things, but he opted to spend money on bobbleheads, gimmicks, and to double and triple down on and coddle Eric Staal, instead of giving coaches the freedom they needed to manage him and force him to raise his level of play. 

 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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I understand that we did not have any money during that time due to a self-imposed budget.  I just felt that there were big time missteps along the way one of which was letting Cole walk.  I just had a feeling Staal was not washed up as we all thought.  The change of scenery did him well.

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I would love it in many ways if we could find a way to pick that Avs carcass and walk away with Duchene or Landskog. But the better this team plays the more that idea fades into the rear view mirror, especially with the emergence of offense from three unexpected or here-to-fore unseen places: Ryan, Lindholm, and McGinn.

 

I still like to think we could use more offensive fire power up front, but the need has never been less apparent than right now.

 

Three reasons this trade doesn't happen for us:

 

1. The offense up front is coming from the guys currently on the roster, so why give up a guy, who, at least this year, is at least your 3rd best D man (or 4th if you want)?

2. Why massively shake up a team that is seriously on a roll?

3. Why give up your most gifted, highest upside young defenseman, when you don't need to? (Answer: DON'T).

 

I am more and more sold on #3. Whatever you do, GMRF, do NOT give up Hanifin for either of those two guys. Hanifin's upside is higher than both of them combined. It is harder for us fans to see, but look at McGinn. Hanifin was drafted 3 years after him and plays a harder position to learn. Cut this out and paste it, and save it and look at it again in about 2-3 years, and then for the next 15 years. Do NOT trade Hanifin.

 

So, unless Francis can put some sort of massive package together that doesn't move Hanifin or Faulk:  ie: Fleury, our first rounder, Murphy, and PDG for Duchene, or something like that, I just don't see it. And since they don't seem to want prospects back for those guys, it doesn't happen.

Edited by remkin

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For what it's worth (if anything) this post is off the Avs HF board. This guy Dom covers the OHL's draft eligible players for the NHL.  I don't know what his connections are, but posters from several different teams have praised him as one of the better sources on the boards.

 

 

Today, 08:41 AM
  #828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
I can 100% say that even after my talks w/ Dom that I'm just as bewildered at why Landeskog is apparently available.

Nothing came up when he and I talked that seemed to indicate that the Avs were unhappy with him. In my talks with other people that I know are connected (relationships I've developed over the last little while), they're not entirely sure either.

If certain players go, there will likely be a time and place where we as a community of fans learn a little bit more about certain things.
Hey guys, Sorry to intrude but I feel I owe you guys something here. I have had one on one's with RockLobster keeping him up to date on anything I've heard and leave it up to him to share if he wants to... I feel a little uncomfortable intruding on other teams' boards.

Let me say I've been following Lando since his first year with the Kitchener Rangers and is one of my favorite players today. I can honestly say I found him to be a gentleman, open and honest and I'd be shocked if there is any issue with him.

Sometimes, you get a gut feeling about a player even at that level. There are Bruins fans that will tell you, that soon after they drafted Dougie Hamilton, I told them he would never, ever sign a second contract with the Bruins. Why, doesn't matter,but sometimes you just know. And we know how that ended up.

Again, no issues with Lando that I am even remotely aware of.

Anyway, two things I can share and it's already been discussed 1) The LA Kings are very much interested in dealing. (RL knows where I got that from and it comes from very high up). What I can't tell you is names that are involved because he just wasn't willing to share that. (Although Muzzin's name keeps getting mentioned from other people)

2) The Canes are very much in talks. Again for whom I don't know. I spend at least 4 days a week in arena's and I can tell you the directive from Ron Francis is that they are very much in it and he wants a full and detailed and thorough report from every level (NHL, AHL, CHL, NCAA and Europe) on each and every player the Avs hold the rights to.

Number two lends me to believe that a trade would expand beyond MD or GL.

i

Edited by LakeLivin

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35 minutes ago, remkin said:

Hanifin's upside is higher than both of them combined.

 

I don't agree with this. If I could get Landeskog (24 yo) and Duchene (25 yo) for Hanifin, I'd do it as fast as I can. One of the things that gives me some concern about Hanifin's upside is his excellent work ethic and physical condition. A lot of the reason guys get better in the league is that their bodies mature as they age and learn habits that make them professionals....well, Noah already had that in place prior to the draft which makes his ability to get better in that area much smaller. If I could put a package together that the Avs would accept that included Hanifin plus futures for Landeskog AND Duchene right now, I'd probably do it.

 

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23 minutes ago, MinJaBen said:

 

I don't agree with this. If I could get Landeskog (24 yo) and Duchene (25 yo) for Hanifin, I'd do it as fast as I can. One of the things that gives me some concern about Hanifin's upside is his excellent work ethic and physical condition. A lot of the reason guys get better in the league is that their bodies mature as they age and learn habits that make them professionals....well, Noah already had that in place prior to the draft which makes his ability to get better in that area much smaller. If I could put a package together that the Avs would accept that included Hanifin plus futures for Landeskog AND Duchene right now, I'd probably do it.

 

 

Fair point. I sort of thought that comment might draw some response.

 

This area is so speculative that there is no way everyone would agree with me, possibly no one. I am just doubling down on my current feeling that we are just too harsh on Hanifin in terms of his projection. Duchene and Landeskog combined? Well that is a pretty wild comment admittedly.

 

But what I'm getting at is that Hanifin has the potential to be that rarest of commodities: a dominant #1 D man that patrols the blueline for more than a decade and just controls it, while putting up points. I don't want to name names, because then it gets even wackier, but think of those types of guys. Almost every cup winner has one. At least half of the NHL teams don't have one. IF he becomes that guy, he could be argued to be more valuable than two top 60 type forwards.

 

But that said, I know that was one of my more provocative, out there statements, that projects Hanifin to perenial All Star or even more status, which is far from proven.  And yes, if you were offered both guys for the Hanifin we see before us? You would clearly take the deal immediately.

Edited by remkin

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32 minutes ago, LakeLivin said:

For what it's worth (if anything) this post is off the Avs HF board. This guy Dom covers the OHL's draft eligible players for the NHL.  I don't know what his connections are, but posters from several different teams have praised him as one of the better sources on the boards.

 

 

Today, 08:41 AM
  #828
ohlwriters.me
 
Dom - OHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Stratford, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
I can 100% say that even after my talks w/ Dom that I'm just as bewildered at why Landeskog is apparently available.

Nothing came up when he and I talked that seemed to indicate that the Avs were unhappy with him. In my talks with other people that I know are connected (relationships I've developed over the last little while), they're not entirely sure either.

If certain players go, there will likely be a time and place where we as a community of fans learn a little bit more about certain things.
Hey guys, Sorry to intrude but I feel I owe you guys something here. I have had one on one's with RockLobster keeping him up to date on anything I've heard and leave it up to him to share if he wants to... I feel a little uncomfortable intruding on other teams' boards.

Let me say I've been following Lando since his first year with the Kitchener Rangers and is one of my favorite players today. I can honestly say I found him to be a gentleman, open and honest and I'd be shocked if there is any issue with him.

Sometimes, you get a gut feeling about a player even at that level. There are Bruins fans that will tell you, that soon after they drafted Dougie Hamilton, I told them he would never, ever sign a second contract with the Bruins. Why, doesn't matter,but sometimes you just know. And we know how that ended up.

Again, no issues with Lando that I am even remotely aware of.

Anyway, two things I can share and it's already been discussed 1) The LA Kings are very much interested in dealing. (RL knows where I got that from and it comes from very high up). What I can't tell you is names that are involved because he just wasn't willing to share that. (Although Muzzin's name keeps getting mentioned from other people)

2) The Canes are very much in talks. Again for whom I don't know. I spend at least 4 days a week in arena's and I can tell you the directive from Ron Francis is that they are very much in it and he wants a full and detailed and thorough report from every level (NHL, AHL, CHL, NCAA and Europe) on each and every player the Avs hold the rights to.

Number two lends me to believe that a trade would expand beyond MD or GL.

i

 

Just when I'm feeling confident we don't trade.....

 

I have little inside info and none on this current situation. I have no idea what Francis thinks of Faulk. I do know that Francis was not blown away with Hanifin last year. That I got directly. But I didn't get the feeling that this was unexpected of a 18 year old trying to play D in the NHL.

 

That last sentence speculates that Francis is trying to line up a blockbuster trade.

 

I have to stay with my general sense that a trade right now seems ill timed, but there does appear to be a lot of smoke around this thing.

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I know the team has looked great offensively the last few games but I don't think we should pass up an opportunity to add an upper tier/elite fwd if the right deal falls into place. I just don't want to get complacent based on a stretch of successful games. With that said, I'm also nervous to give up Hanifin or Faulk. 

The way I look at it is this:

Skinner - Rask - XXX
McGinn - Staal - Lindholm
Aho - Teuvo - XXX

Ryan and Stempniak have played well, but those are the two spots I think the upgrades should be made. The issue I see with Landeskog is that he's a LW and we don't really have a spot for that without breaking up the current chemistry. Aho can play either wing so maybe he'd fit on that line. With Duchene, could he slide into Rask's spot and Rask play RW? 

Edited by TheFaulker

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22 hours ago, hopper915 said:

Watching the NHL Network the other night and they were commenting about Bobrovsky. How he slimmed down and is carrying about 15 less pounds and how for a goalie during the course of the game means less stress and strain on the back, knees and groin. To me Cam looks the fittest he has in a very long time and I wonder if the same could be said for him. He has become a prominent leader in the locker-room with all the youngsters currently here. He has become a steadying force on the back-end that takes a lot of stress off the youngsters playing in front of him.

 

Skinner has definitely stepped it up and is no longer that immature squawking at every call youth and has become a mature veteran that is leading this team not only by his play on the ice, but his voice in the locker-room as well.

 

But it was, what, 09-10 when Cam lost all that weight?  He came into camp nearly anorexic, I guess trying to take off the weight due to the problems at the end of 09.  And perhaps that lingered and prevented a good fitness regime.  I don't know.

 

But whatever it is, this year he's put it all together.

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1 minute ago, remkin said:

But what I'm getting at is that Hanifin has the potential to be that rarest of commodities: a dominant #1 D man that patrols the blueline for more than a decade and just controls it, while putting up points.

 

Sure he does. But the big questions that Ron Francis has to ask himself when looking at that potential are: will he reach it, and when will he reach it, and will we be in a position to win when he reaches it, or are we in a better position to win before he is ready? Those questions should be the basis of his decision on Hanifin. I am not sure he will be any better than Slavin already has become. I also believe that the rapid development of our defensive unit has thrown a wrench in the "usual" rebuild strategy by pulling our play up enough that we will not be "winning" the draft lottery any time soon. Thus we've found ourselves squarely in the doughnut hole of too good to get those high-end forwards that only show up at the top of the draft, but not good enough to reliably make the playoffs every year and challenge for the cup. The only way out of that is to trade a bit of our future for a bit of someone else's now. The situation that the Avs have found themselves in is nearly perfect for us to pounce on as it gets us some of the now we need  at the expense of some of our future, but the now still has a lot of future left in it as the guys in question are 25 years old or younger. I've put this out on HF boards and gotten some positive responses:

 

To the Canes: Duchene AND Landeskog

 

To the Avs: Hanifin, Fleury, Gauthier, 2017 1st, PDG

 

We would get a true 1st line C and a 1st line talent on the wing. It would cost us, however. But the cost I think is manageable: we still have Bean, Carrick and McKeown as defensive prospects with promise, Gauthier's potential is completely replaced by Landeskog's known skill, the 1st is probably the least of the worries as we still have two seconds and two thirds this year in a weaker than average draft, and PDG is in there for contract balance and to avoid protection issues with the expansion draft.

 

This trade would allow us to compete for cups right now while we still have a very affordable defensive core, would allow us to compete in the future as both of the additions are great players that are under 25 years old, and would be a great draw to help bring more fans into the building and thus make the prospect of the team relocating a bad memory.

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I have a rule in life: don't do business with friends and family.  It can go to heck and get real ugly.

 

With the extraordinary exceptions of twins, I don't think it helps to have family playing together on the same team.  My opinion only.  That's all I'll say about that.

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I'm of the opinion scoring will eventually die down.  Every team needs 2 - 3 top line forwards in order to make the playoffs.   As it stands, we have a young team with maybe 2 top line forwards.   There will come a time in the season where we will start to not score goals and we will be wishing we had a Duchene.   I would not give up Slavin or Pesce for either of the players mentioned though.   Faulk yes, Hani... debatable. 

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1 hour ago, remkin said:

I would love it in many ways if we could find a way to pick that Avs carcass and walk away with Duchene or Landskog. But the better this team plays the more that idea fades into the rear view mirror, especially with the emergence of offense from three unexpected or here-to-fore unseen places: Ryan, Lindholm, and McGinn.

 

I still like to think we could use more offensive fire power up front, but the need has never been less apparent than right now.

 

Three reasons this trade doesn't happen for us:

 

1. The offense up front is coming from the guys currently on the roster, so why give up a guy, who, at least this year, is at least your 3rd best D man (or 4th if you want)?

2. Why massively shake up a team that is seriously on a roll?

3. Why give up your most gifted, highest upside young defenseman, when you don't need to? (Answer: DON'T).

 

I am more and more sold on #3. Whatever you do, GMRF, do NOT give up Hanifin for either of those two guys. Hanifin's upside is higher than both of them combined. It is harder for us fans to see, but look at McGinn. Hanifin was drafted 3 years after him and plays a harder position to learn. Cut this out and paste it, and save it and look at it again in about 2-3 years, and then for the next 15 years. Do NOT trade Hanifin.

 

So, unless Francis can put some sort of massive package together that doesn't move Hanifin or Faulk:  ie: Fleury, our first rounder, Murphy, and PDG for Duchene, or something like that, I just don't see it. And since they don't seem to want prospects back for those guys, it doesn't happen.

 

I'm going to disagree, as well.  Sure, things are going great right now, but how many times have we had a great result and assumed it would be the norm going forward? Remember when we first got Khudobin? PDGs start?  Semin's first season with us, cough, cough?  One might say "well, let's wait and see", but don't forget opportunity cost. 

 

The challenge with Hanifin for me is trying to be objective given the hype and publicity associated with him from a ridiculously early age (none of which was his fault, btw).  This is a kid who at one point some were saying could challenge McEichel for the top draft spot.  How much does that influence our projections for him going forward?  In trying to be objective, I'm imagining what I'd be thinking of Hanifin if he came with no hype and was drafted later in the round.  Based on what we've seen so far, what evidence do we have that he stands a high probability of becoming an elite #1 d-man?  He does have the physical make up that projects extremely well. I can see his puck moving skills projecting as potentially elite.  Defense? Nothing terrible, but nothing so far that projects as elite.  Same with offense; so far I see Slavin as showing more offensive potential than Hanifin.  Sure, Hanifin is only 19yo.  But look at Aho at 6 months younger (and new to NA ice).  Defensemen take longer to develop, you say?  There are a number of d-men who've shown more at 19 than Hanifin has so far (just recently, Seth Jones, Ekblad, Werenski, Provorov.  Even Brandon Carlo is a bigger part of Boston's d right now than Hanifin is of Carolina's).  That's not to say that Hanifin might not develop a bit later, but it is one factor that could have supported our lofty expectations but so far hasn't. 

 

My experience is that, in evaluating trades, most hockey fans tend to value "their own" at their absolute ceiling but factor into potential trade partners value the fact that few actually hit their absolute ceiling (or play at it for an extended period of time).  How much are we doing that with Hanifin?   We've got a pretty good idea of what Duchene and Landeskog are, and it's pretty darn good.  Hanifin has potential, but my fear is that we're overestimating the chances that he maxes out at that potential based more on the hype and publicity he came with rather than what we've seen on the ice to date.  

 

I'm with MinJaBen;  if you can get basically Duchene OR Landeskog for Hanifin you take it and run.  I think we're way overvaluing potential vs. already proven results, probably because I associate way more risk in Hanifin fully realizing his max potential than you do.  

Edited by LakeLivin

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23 minutes ago, MinJaBen said:

 

To the Canes: Duchene AND Landeskog

 

To the Avs: Hanifin, Fleury, Gauthier, 2017 1st, PDG

 

 

I'd do this, but I don't see how the Avs possibly could. It would set their rebuild way too far out in the future.  I think that because of how poorly the Avs are doing we tend to forget how good Duchene and Landeskog are.  If they trade one close to straight up for Hanifin, seems like they'd have to get back young but NHL-now pieces for the other, and PDG isn't going to cut it on that front.   

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