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Sorry I disagree.  We need a top 6 goal scorer more than anything and Duchene is a perfect fit.  He will produce even more on this team with the speed and talent around him.  I'm definitely willing to give up a top D prospect and couple picks for him.  We are never going to be successful without some NHL caliber fire power added in our top 6.  Here's a perspective on how good Duchene has been compared to Jeff Skinner.

 

Duchene----171goals  236assists  406points in 538 NHL games played.

 

Skinner----161goals 142assists    303 points in 466 NHL games played.

 

We would not move Skinner for any less than Sakic is asking.  You got to give something up that hurts to get something as good as a Skinner or Duchene. 

 

The future could be:  Duchene,Skinner,Staal,Aho,TT,Rask,lindholm,(Gauthier,Roy)   Give them Fleury and a couple picks, or Fleury and Roy and a pick.  Lets do this. We could be extremely dangerous with 30goals a year added on by Duchene. We would still have Slavin,Pesce,Faulk and  Hannifin,Fleury,Bean(minus one of them in a deal). As far as picks go, we have a lot of them and could afford to go light this year with all the talent we have coming for the next decade., And don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Fleury  being a big beast NHL D man for us, but you got to give something up that hurts. 

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3 hours ago, JCLA said:

 

Duchene ain't good enough for this deal to even be considered.

 

LeBrun agrees. That last sentence of the quote implies that, so your probably right and thus no deal has been made.

 

What would people do if Fleury, Next Years's First rounder, and Roy for Duchene was there?

 

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1 hour ago, danimal-ch1 said:

Sorry I disagree.  We need a top 6 goal scorer more than anything and Duchene is a perfect fit.  He will produce even more on this team with the speed and talent around him.  I'm definitely willing to give up a top D prospect and couple picks for him.  We are never going to be successful without some NHL caliber fire power added in our top 6.  Here's a perspective on how good Duchene has been compared to Jeff Skinner.

 

Duchene----171goals  236assists  406points in 538 NHL games played.

 

Skinner----161goals 142assists    303 points in 466 NHL games played.

 

We would not move Skinner for any less than Sakic is asking.  You got to give something up that hurts to get something as good as a Skinner or Duchene. 

 

The future could be:  Duchene,Skinner,Staal,Aho,TT,Rask,lindholm,(Gauthier,Roy)   Give them Fleury and a couple picks, or Fleury and Roy and a pick.  Lets do this. We could be extremely dangerous with 30goals a year added on by Duchene. We would still have Slavin,Pesce,Faulk and  Hannifin,Fleury,Bean(minus one of them in a deal). As far as picks go, we have a lot of them and could afford to go light this year with all the talent we have coming for the next decade., And don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Fleury  being a big beast NHL D man for us, but you got to give something up that hurts. 

 

I would agree on that but as I understand it the asking price is Fleury or a roster Dman, Roy, a 1st, and a 2nd.  Thats an overpay for a guy thats only signed for 1 more year.  If he was signed for 3 years, we have guaranteed performance to help alleviate the loss of that much future.  

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I think you were typing when I was gocanes.

 

The Fleury, First Rounder and Roy thing was me speculating based on the quote of what Sakic wanted, not any rumor I'd seen.

 

I would really consider it though. But that's me. It would be a bit atypical for Francis, because he had been in "collect prospects mode" and that is a lot of potential to give up.

 

But it would give us the offensive punch immediately without sacrificing anyone from the current team. Also Duchene would have two more full years, and theoretically re-signs if things go well. It might be enough to get us to the playoffs too.

 

We've had a run of pretty dang good drafting so far, but the odds are close to 50-50 on mid to late first round picks. Roy is a true asset who could end up being very good in the NHL. If we could sub in Kuokannen, I would. But I just really like Gauthier and would not trade him.

 

Fleury would be a loss, but we are getting back a fast proven perennial 65 point guy, just hitting his prime. Further, just a little behind Fleury we have Jake Bean, also a LHD, and we would keep Hanifin, and we have Slavin.  If we carry out the ultimate progression of our LHD, we have too many: Slavin/Hanifin/Fleury/Bean. 3/4 are very highly regarded high first round picks, and one is our best D man now and young. 

 

It's not just that there are 4 of them and theoretically 3 slots. But to be honest, there really are only 2 spots unless TWO guys fizzle or give us a great deal on their contract. Why? You just can't pay a guy to be an awesome bottom pair D man, even if you spend to the cap. In the long run, unless we get a super deal on a guy's contract at LEAST one of those 4 and probably 2 end up gone at some point. The only question is when and for whom.

 

I've been assuming that Fleury plus-plus is not enough (I'd even surmise that some form of that has been floated to Sakic (pure guess)). But what if it became enough?

 

Edited by remkin
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1 hour ago, remkin said:

 

LeBrun agrees. That last sentence of the quote implies that, so your probably right and thus no deal has been made.

 

What would people do if Fleury, Next Years's First rounder, and Roy for Duchene was there?

 

 

I think it's definitely worth seriously discussing but I don't think I'm going to throw Roy in there.  Fleury right now has become somebody who is disposable with Bean being drafted and everything I've heard about him, as well as the others we have in the system.  I wouldn't mind Fluery and next years first.  I mean that is already a lot to give up and I think that would be fair for duchene.  If you really look at what Duchene has done, scoring wise it isn't elite.  His past 3 years have been 21, 30 and right now he's at 15.  If I'm going to give up anything that requires a top level prospect, a round 1 pick and then something else, that player is going to need to be consistently in the mid to high 30's in goal scoring and that is not Duchene.  

 

Duchene would be a nice asset to have but I think he's overvalued.  The guy has only ever scored over 60 points twice in a season not to mention he's a career -43

Edited by JCLA
He has had 2 60+ point season

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2 hours ago, danimal-ch1 said:

 

 

Duchene----171goals  236assists  406points in 538 NHL games played.

 

Skinner----161goals 142assists    303 points in 466 NHL games played.

 

We would not move Skinner for any less than Sakic is asking.  You got to give something up that hurts to get something as good as a Skinner or Duchene. 

 

 

That's almost an entire season worth of games played and Duchene only has 10 more goals than skinner.

Edited by JCLA

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10 minutes ago, JCLA said:

 

That's almost an entire season worth of games played and Duchene only has 10 more goals than skinner.

He's got a 100 more points though.  A goal scorer and a play maker.  Look at the bigger picture.  Maybe he finds chemistry with Skinner and those two light it up and score 30plus every year, or maybe Aho is the guy.  I feel he would fit in, young, fast, talented, and can finish.  He would bring the best out of somebody on our team.  We don't have two guys in our top 6 that set each other up night after night, nothing but line juggling. If Duchene and Skinner, or Duchene and Aho find chemistry, that would be incredible for us. 

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31 minutes ago, danimal-ch1 said:

He's got a 100 more points though.  A goal scorer and a play maker.  Look at the bigger picture.  Maybe he finds chemistry with Skinner and those two light it up and score 30plus every year, or maybe Aho is the guy.  I feel he would fit in, young, fast, talented, and can finish.  He would bring the best out of somebody on our team.  We don't have two guys in our top 6 that set each other up night after night, nothing but line juggling. If Duchene and Skinner, or Duchene and Aho find chemistry, that would be incredible for us. 

 

Bigger picture wise, what Sakic wants is way too much to give up for what Duchene has done in his career.  I think we need more of a goal scorer than a play maker though.  We have tons of player makers.

 

I'm also looking at this through what Sakic wants and what we can give up.  I'd love to have Duchene, don't get me wrong.  But the more and more I hear about what Sakic wants for him makes me want him more and more less.

Edited by JCLA

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15 minutes ago, JCLA said:

 

Bigger picture wise, what Sakic wants is way too much to give up for what Duchene has done in his career.  I think we need more of a goal scorer than a play maker though.  We have tons of player makers.

 

I'm also looking at this through what Sakic wants and what we can give up.  I'd love to have Duchene, don't get me wrong.  But the more and more I hear about what Sakic wants for him makes me want him more and more less.

Who exactly is available right now that would fit our team and immediately make us better?  No one.  Only Duchene, and he's a perfect fit.  We loaded up on picks and prospects for 3 years and now its paying off.  we have plenty left over to use as trade bait pieces. , we can afford to part with a few.  Our defense is set for the next decade and with Aho and TT rising as well as Gauthier and Roy our offense is damn close.  It needs to be completed.  If not now than when?  Another non playoff season?  another bummer summer, another slow start next year.  We need something to happen now.  And Duchene could be a high impact player for another decade, he's young. 

 

Imagine what next year or even the end of this year could look like:

Duchene 30goals

Skinner   30goals

Aho         30 goals

Staal       25goals

Rask       25goals

TT          20goals

 

Edited by danimal-ch1
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One thing to point out is that what Sakic wants for him and what he gets for him are almost certainly two different things.

 

It is a good discussion.

 

The thing that appeals to me about making Fleury the guy is that we are stacked on LHD. To be honest, we probably don't need Fleury OR Bean. Slavin/Hanifin could become a phenomenal 1-3 punch. That bottom pair guy almost has to be a yute or a solid, if boring defensive guy, due to the cap.

 

I agree I don't want to give up Roy. The thing is, Fleury has played zero NHL games. Tremendous upside, but zero NHL games for a #3 overall, proven scorer who is only 25 years old, is going to need to be bulked up on our end. This is actually part of the conundrum. To get full value, Fleury needs some NHL games as does Bean. But that means not trading them for a year or even two (or even 3) (to get enough games).

 

That leaves Faulk and Hanifin. Faulk would hurt this year's team too much (and is our needed RHD), and Hanifin is the most highly regarded prospect of all of them.

 

So, if adding our first rounder and a prospect gets it done? It could end up being overpayment, but it is what's out there, and it would make our team better. I reluctantly put Roy in because Duchene is a center, and I have a feeling about Gauthier. Just too good to move. I just doubt that Fleury and our first pick gets it done.

 

Edited by remkin

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On the upside of the proposed trade: we go Duchene/Staal/Rask down the middle. With Skinner and Aho proven good to elite wingers, and TT and Lindholm on the verge. That could be an amazing top 7 forwards with Gauthier in waiting make 9. And personally I think McGinn ends up being that gritty 3rd liner with some upside. I like Ryan and Stempniak too, but long term probably not.

 

So this top 9 and top 4 D could be pretty dang impressive. Possible line up next year and years to go:

 

Duchene, Staal, Rask, Skinner, Aho, Teravainen, Lindholm, Gauthier, McGinn.

 

Defense: Slavin/Pesce/Faulk/Hanifin (and Bean in waiting).'

 

 

 

True, unless Aho or Gauthier develop into uber elite, we may not have THAT guy, but that would be a pretty dang good team still. Plus, how are we going to get "that" guy anyways?

 

I don't know how much Francis wants Duchene, but if he does, I'm betting some version of this deal has been offered, maybe without Roy, and it hasn't been enough. Just full guesswork. But we can make this deal and not affect this year's team or the future (outside of lamenting watching the guys we gave up have nice careers).

Edited by remkin

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43 minutes ago, remkin said:

One thing to point out is that what Sakic wants for him and what he gets for him are almost certainly two different things.

 

It is a good discussion.

 

The thing that appeals to me about making Fleury the guy is that we are stacked on LHD. To be honest, we probably don't need Fleury OR Bean. Slavin/Hanifin could become a phenomenal 1-3 punch. That bottom pair guy almost has to be a yute or a solid, if boring defensive guy, due to the cap.

 

I agree I don't want to give up Roy. The thing is, Fleury has played zero NHL games. Tremendous upside, but zero NHL games for a #3 overall, proven scorer who is only 25 years old, is going to need to be bulked up on our end. This is actually part of the conundrum. To get full value, Fleury needs some NHL games as does Bean. But that means not trading them for a year or even two (or even 3) (to get enough games).

 

That leaves Faulk and Hanifin. Faulk would hurt this year's team too much (and is our needed RHD), and Hanifin is the most highly regarded prospect of all of them.

 

So, if adding our first rounder and a prospect gets it done? It could end up being overpayment, but it is what's out there, and it would make our team better. I reluctantly put Roy in because Duchene is a center, and I have a feeling about Gauthier. Just too good to move. I just doubt that Fleury and our first pick gets it done.

 

 

Yeah I don't think it gets it done either but I think it's the proper trade value for value.

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31 minutes ago, remkin said:

On the upside of the proposed trade: we go Duchene/Staal/Rask down the middle. With Skinner and Aho proven good to elite wingers, and TT and Lindholm on the verge. That could be an amazing top 7 forwards with Gauthier in waiting.

 

And our defense? Still have Slavin/Pesce/Faulk/Hanifin (and Bean in waiting).

 

True, unless Aho or Gauthier develop into uber elite, we may not have THAT guy, but that would be a pretty dang good team still. Plus, how are we going to get "that" guy anyways?

 

I don't know how much Francis wants Duchene, but if he does, I'm betting some version of this deal has been offered, maybe without Roy, and it hasn't been enough. Just full guesswork. But we can make this deal and not affect this year's team or the future (outside of lamenting watching the guys we gave up have nice careers).

 

I don't see any reason Aho can't put up the same numbers as Duchene has and is now.  The kid is incredible for being only 19 years old.  I'm also not going to classify Duchene.  

 

My problem is Sakic is setting an asking price for an elite player and Duchene isn't an elite player.

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53 minutes ago, danimal-ch1 said:

Who exactly is available right now that would fit our team and immediately make us better?  No one.  Only Duchene, and he's a perfect fit.  We loaded up on picks and prospects for 3 years and now its paying off.  we have plenty left over to use as trade bait pieces. , we can afford to part with a few.  Our defense is set for the next decade and with Aho and TT rising as well as Gauthier and Roy our offense is damn close.  It needs to be completed.  If not now than when?  Another non playoff season?  another bummer summer, another slow start next year.  We need something to happen now.  And Duchene could be a high impact player for another decade, he's young. 

 

Imagine what next year or even the end of this year could look like:

Duchene 30goals

Skinner   30goals

Aho         30 goals

Staal       25goals

Rask       25goals

TT          20goals

 

 

I would not be willing to pay for what would equate to an elite player for a non-elite player.

 

We're looking at, we will use Fluery, a potential top 4 defenseman, a first round pick (supposedly going to be a pretty good player in the future) and another nhl roster player.  

 

That's too much to give up for a 25 goal scorer.

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I'm from the camp that if you can make your team better on offense overnight go for it!   To Remkin's point We have a plethora of assets which at some point we can not afford to keep them all. I would give up Hanifan or Faulk, a defensive prospect  (Fleury or Bean) and a no 1 draft pick. We have the assets, the salary room and the cap.  The off season also has some very good UFA's  that we should make very strong plays for. Why not make a huge play for Shattenkirk  a RHD in the offseason?  A few decent goalies that are UFA's as well. I just hope that RF has made a very strong play to Sakic as playing money ball isn't working in Raleigh. Yes you can wait for the Yutes to develop but the years tick by waiting for that to happen and I ain't getting any younger!

Edited by slapshot02
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14 minutes ago, slapshot02 said:

. Yes you can wait for the Yutes to develop but the years tick by waiting for that to happen and I ain't getting any younger!

 

Love it. :lol:.

 

And there is a point there. Duchene would jump start this team having the firepower up front to be a contender. Not a favorite, but a contender. And if he works out, he could be part of the future too. And give this year's team a shot at playoffs.

 

IF you are right and Fleury ends up being close to or better than Hanifins' upside, then I would be good with Hanifin going. I would argue that Hanifin should not need to include our first and a top prospect. One or the other maybe.

 

I am curious what other even near elite forwards have been traded in the last say 4 years aside from Johansen and Hall. And think of how utterly stacked the Oilers were on forwards, and it still took them a few years to go from "should" trade a guy, to actually doing it. I'm not saying there weren't any, just wondering how many others?

 

I don't think that young, proven elite (or near elite) forwards get traded that often, and if they do, we are still competing with other teams to pull the deal off.

Edited by remkin
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6 minutes ago, remkin said:

 

. I would argue that Hanifin should not need to include our first and a top prospect. One or the other maybe.

 

 

I hear ya and understand that it would be an over pay. I'm good at spending other peoples money or assets. My point is we can afford to over pay if that is what it takes. Ronnie has been collecting assets  and just like money you can't take it to your grave. Let's spend a little... don't go broke...just infuse the team now instead of playing the endless waiting game.

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In negotiation, you do not show your hand to the other guy at the table.  You set your position, they set theirs and work from there.  Sakic is putting his "shoot for the moon" expectations out there to see if someone bites.  As the trade deadline approaches, the prices usually go up.  Perhaps a desperate GM would be willing to part with that if they thought Duchesne put them over the top.

 

I always look at trades of this type as "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush".  Unless they are a  can't miss prospect, I have no qualms trading a Fleury instead of a Hanifan, because Hanifan has already proven he can play at the NHL level (the ceiling is still unknown, but he at least belongs).  This is a weak draft so could Fleury, a 1st and perhaps a B level prosect get the job done???  Not sure, but I hope that Francis is thinking in the same manner.  If we have to give up an A level prospect such as Roy or Gauthier, I'm confident that GMRF would not also part with a first AND Fleury.  

 

I would love to have Duchense, but not at the price Sakic is asking.

Edited by ironman87
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1 hour ago, danimal-ch1 said:

Who exactly is available right now that would fit our team and immediately make us better?  No one.

Dude, that is a huge leap. Just on the same team there's Landeskog and Iginla, and this year (like every other) there will be plenty of other options as the deadline looms and teams become sellers. That's the whole reason Sakic has been playing this game for the past couple of months--he's trying to set an unrealistically high price in hopes somebody bites, before those other much-more-reasonably-priced options hit the market. It's understandable with the ExDraft also in the mix, but it doesn't justify paying what he's asking.

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Cmon with Ignilia, dudes age caught him, he is not gonna be Jagr.  Duchenes numbers are better than Landeskog and hes not on the table anyway. I dont want to wait til summer again, players dont want to come here and end up getting paid big by the big city teams. This is an oppurtunity we will not have again.  A 25 yr old 30goal speedy scorer. Aint coming around like this again

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If Fleury is the D-man going the other way for Duchene, you have a #3 overall for a #7 overall. Every year as we near the draft, Rem or someone posts about what it takes historically to move up from a lower position to a higher one. In this case, though, we are not talking about 2 players from the same draft. Duchene has established himself in the NHL as a very solid center. Fleury is 3 years removed from his draft year and is purely valued based on potential. He hasn't seen the NHL yet. If we could swing a trade for Duchene without giving up a current roster player, that would be attractive. I'm not averse to throwing in this year's first, because clearly it will take a lot more than Fleury to get Duchene. What it requires beyond that would be the sticking point. RF gets the big bucks to figure these things out, but as someone pointed out we have been stockpiling futures, and and giving up some of them to get a player like Duchene probably makes sense. But would Colorado really part with Duchene without getting a proven roster D in return? Maybe we'll find out.

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While we are focused on how to get either Duchene, Landeskog,  I wonder if there won't be an opportunity for us to pick up an asset of two from another team looking to make a deal with Colorado. I haven't studied the other teams targeting a Colorado trade deal but certainly there will be more than one that will need cap relief to consumate a deal. We have the room and the history to take a challenging contract in order to secure a good prospect or draft pick.

 

I'm just beginning to think about trade deadline options.

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1 hour ago, OBXer said:

While we are focused on how to get either Duchene, Landeskog,  I wonder if there won't be an opportunity for us to pick up an asset of two from another team looking to make a deal with Colorado. I haven't studied the other teams targeting a Colorado trade deal but certainly there will be more than one that will need cap relief to consumate a deal. We have the room and the history to take a challenging contract in order to secure a good prospect or draft pick.

 

I'm just beginning to think about trade deadline options.

Could be.  Of course, the further into the season we go the more cap space teams accumulate, opening up the possibility of signing players who wouldn't have fit earlier.  I took a quick look at CapFriendly (https://www.capfriendly.com/) and it seems like there isn't a cap problem for the teams that are being most heavily discussed over on the Avs boards (Sens, Bruins, Kings, and us).

 

I wonder if there might also be some jockeying to adjust rosters to protect against the expansion draft.  E.g., trading for an exempt player if you haven't got enough protection slots or maybe trading 2 solid players at risk of being taken (say legit 2nd or 3rd liners) for 1 player at a higher level.

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14 hours ago, danimal-ch1 said:

Cmon with Ignilia, dudes age caught him, he is not gonna be Jagr.  Duchenes numbers are better than Landeskog and hes not on the table anyway. I dont want to wait til summer again, players dont want to come here and end up getting paid big by the big city teams. This is an oppurtunity we will not have again.  A 25 yr old 30goal speedy scorer. Aint coming around like this again

Landeskog is absolutely on the table, danimal. Sakic is shopping both Duche and Gabe.

 

Whether Iginla is the next Jagr remains to be seen, but for our purposes right now, he'd be a huge asset down the stretch, a banger who goes to the net and knows how to set screens--and a bargain to boot. We've already got plenty of snipers. We need big bodies net-front to screen keepers so their shots find the twine. Not taking anything away from Duche at all, just saying we're loaded with that type of player, on top of which his commitment to D is questionable.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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