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8 minutes ago, raleighcaniac said:

The below is from Feb 14, mynhltraderumores.com (whoever they are...).  You guys have been talking up a storm re: Duchene all season so remember this: You have to give to get. Sakic is no fool and knows Faulk is not a 'defensive' answer for his team, such as what he may be looking for in a Dman or that a throw in like Murphy will be much help either. So the question is: based on our current upcoming pool of Dmen like Fleury, McKewon and Bean it wouldn't be surprising to see a 1 on 1 trade for Duchene involving either Slavin or Pesce...you gotta give to get.

. . .

 

I still don't see see RF dealing Slavin or Pesce for Duchene.  One reason is their age.  A shut down pair for the extended immediate future is something you chase, not give up.  Plus, I see a lot of potential offensive upside for Slavin, and I don't see Pesce having the "cache" to be a big enough piece to justify dealing him.  And there are too many other good options for the Avs to focus exclusively on either Slavin or Pesce.   

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I guess we'll know no later than a week this Friday.

 

I question RF waiting to see where the team is at by then. Duschene or Landeskog could be long gone. RF knows his team and 'where they're at' by way of talent. He should be pulling the trigger with an eye toward next season and beyond. Staggering into the playoffs this year with a crappy goaltending duo and a tired starter in Ward guarantees an early exit, and making/not making the playoffs shouldn't be the reason RF does/does not make a move in the next 3-4 days instead of next Friday.

Edited by raleighcaniac
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25 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

RF has to do something.   Trying the same thing over and over again and getting the same end result is the definition of insanity. 

 

I don't think your quote is quite right...

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3 hours ago, danimal-ch1 said:

Topshelf did you watch the video?  at least half the goals he was crashing the net, screening or cleaning up the garbage.   And he's an amazing shot, a pure finisher. I'm sold even more after watching that.  I see him and Aho scoring a lot of goals together if we get him.

I did, and I thank PK for posting it. I've never said Duchene is not an elite scorer. He absolutely is. My problem is that he's more of what we already have in terms of physicality: Hitless.

 

Regarding what centers are supposed to do, PK is absolutely right that our breakouts have come up the wall lately--and those are the games we lose. No coincidence there. I've been pointing it out for weeks now: When we're going good, our wingers win pucks in the D-zone and send them to the high slot where the center starts the breakout. Part of the reason that hasn't been happening like it did in Nov and Dec is that our wingers are not winning the puck cleanly along the wall, but trying to push it up the wall instead. Whether it's because they've worn down or are being lazy I don't know, but I do know that Landeskog will bang to get those pucks loose. 

 

1 hour ago, raleighcaniac said:

 it wouldn't be surprising to see a 1 on 1 trade for Duchene involving either Slavin or Pesce...you gotta give to get. Plus will the Canes give up Pesce or Slavin for Duchene who will be a UFA in two more seasons?

You and I may not agree on much, RC, but we're absolutely in sync on this. It's why I noted the elephant in the room the other day: Slavin's from just north of Denver and probably grew up an Avs' fan.

 

There is no question in my mind that Sakic wants Slavin or Pesce, and if Boston, as rumored, is now okay with giving up Carlo for Landeskog, RF would have to match that to get him. (I also think it's telling that Boston wants Skog, not Duche. Just sayin'.) I sincerely hope that giving up either of our young top-pairing D men is a bridge too far for RF, in light of the balls still to bounce in the off-season (ExDraft). 

 

As for as getting both Duche and Skog, I'm with everybody else: If we can, we should. But I'm still not willing to give up Slavin or Pesce to do it, and that's the problem.

 

RC's point (and mine) is that Sakic has been clear: he wants an established, young, defensive Dman for Scog. The only way I see him **perhaps** accepting something other than Slavin or Pesce for Scog and giving us BOTH Duche and Skog is if we'd give up Hanifin and Fluery and Bean, throw in Murphy, and a second. If we want both, it's going to take pieces that young and that promising, IMO, especially if Boston has already established Scog's price by offering Carlo. If that report is true, Sakic is not going to take Faulk for Scog, and I don't blame him one bit; I wouldn't either.

 

A lot of us (myself included) have rationalized ways that Sakic might take Faulk for Duche. RC's point about term is the best rationalization for doing so. But at the end of the day, if I'm Joe, shopping for defensive d-men, there's simply no way, because Faulk isn't one. -80 lifetime is -80 lifetime, no matter how many goals you've scored or trips to the ASG you've made (every team's gotta send somebody). If Boston has indeed offered Carlo for Scog yet RF is somehow able to do a deal that brings back Duche or Scog for Faulk, Murph and a pick, I'll be stunned. But there's no way I give up Slavin or Pesce. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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1 hour ago, raleighcaniac said:

I guess we'll know no later than a week this Friday.

 

I question RF waiting to see where the team is at by then. Duschene or Landeskog could be long gone. RF knows his team and 'where they're at' by way of talent. He should be pulling the trigger with an eye toward next season and beyond. Staggering into the playoffs this year with a crappy goaltending duo and a tired starter in Ward guarantees an early exit, and making/not making the playoffs shouldn't be the reason RF does/does not make a move in the next 3-4 days instead of next Friday.

Absolutely agree. We should do the deal now, although it takes two to tango. The closer this gets to the TD, the better Sakic's odds of getting what he wants.

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1 hour ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

They quote Francis:

 

"So it will be interesting to see where we are towards the end of next week, and then you make your decision based on whether it's something you want to do to help your team this year. Our philosophy has always been the same: if we're looking at something at this point, it's something that has to make us better now, but also has to make us better in the long haul."

 

Clearly he's open to making a move.

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Wow, somehow I got 10 pages behind on this thread...

 

Grit.

 

The Canes haven't made the playoffs without Erik Cole on the team since Erik Cole was a rookie in 2001.

 

When he was lost to FA, our only remaining power forward was Ruutu.  Since then, we arguably have not replaced either.  Simply put, we don't have a fast strong guy who takes every opportunity to lay a hit that he has.  Erik or Tuomo or Scotty never passed up a potential hit.

 

In the grand scheme of things this does not seem to amount to much, except teams we play are allowed to operate against the boards with zero concerns about facing any opposition except stickwork or a weak check.  This allows them the freedom to concentrate on the puck instead of having their head on a swivel trying to make sure they don't get mashed.  Its a small thing but add up every opportunity over the course of a season and it becomes a big thing.

 

Sports is always about pressure, i.e. pressuring another player to do something faster or with less concentration than they feel comfortable with.  That's why grit matters.  It forces mistakes, or weaker plays from the opposition than they would otherwise make.

 

This is also why Eric Staal played his best with Cole.  Cole provided 2 things for Staal.  First, his outside speed forced the defense to pay special attention to him up the boards, pulling the defenseman several feet further out of position than normal.  This left more open ice for Staal to make plays and not just get mugged.   Second, his physical play took some of the defensive burden off of Staal leaving a more balanced defensive responsibility, also opening up the ice for Staal to be more offensive.

 

I don't remember which game, but recently Skinner was defended by someone as he came down the left wing by the guy basically pounding him down onto the ice and he spun around several times like a top.  This is not to disparage Skinner, but we don't need a team of 4 or 5 Skinners spinning around.  I'm happy with a couple who can occasionally get spun around but can snipe the living hell out of the puck, and some other guys who maybe can't make a headshot at 400 yards in a crosswind, but don't go down when they are checked and can go to the net and stay there.

 

Erik Cole's are not common, speed + grit, but this is what we lack in my humble opinion more than anything as far as our forwards go.  I hope Gauthier is one of those, and we need more than one.  Maybe Lindy grows into it.

 

All this to say that while it looks like we don't have anyone who can put the puck in the net, I think we need someone posting up who isn't Skinner or Aho.  Adding another sniper is fine but a small sniper is just another guy who needs someone else to open up the ice for them.  Our snipers would do better if they didn't have to be the guys carving out the "dirty areas" and instead poked their nose in there from time to time.

 

Just my thoughts on it.  My Boston buddy still tells me, "The Canes have skill but they are a soft team" and I can't deny it.

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Patience people. Julien Gauthier is all these things you guys have mentioned in having speed and size, physicality, net drives and net front presence. And he's most likely going to crack the lineup next season. Nicolas Roy is a very similar player with size and speed, at center, who may be more defensively reliable than Goat. Either way, you have two guys who are going to bring that style of hockey to the forward corps in the near future. Which is why we are only giving guys like Stalberg 1 year deals to gap the development required for Goats and Roy. 

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9 minutes ago, SuckaPunchd said:

Nicolas Roy is a very similar player with size and speed, at center, who may be more defensively reliable than Goat

 

Roy has a lot of good qualities, but you are probably the first to list speed as one of them.

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He seemed fast to me in the WJC. I will admit I haven't seen much of him in Junior games. Point is we have these types of players, just not quite at the NHL level yet. We don't need to spend some of our futures on filling roles we have lined up to be filled soon. Hence a lot of focus on getting a true top line center.

Edited by SuckaPunchd

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17 minutes ago, SuckaPunchd said:

Patience people. Julien Gauthier is all these things you guys have mentioned in having speed and size, physicality, net drives and net front presence. And he's most likely going to crack the lineup next season. Nicolas Roy is a very similar player with size and speed, at center, who may be more defensively reliable than Goat. Either way, you have two guys who are going to bring that style of hockey to the forward corps in the near future. Which is why we are only giving guys like Stalberg 1 year deals to gap the development required for Goats and Roy. 

I was in the middle of typing a post on Gauthier, and you beat me to it.  And as I've stated as far as a Landeskog/Faulk trade, it is a bad idea to trade a player from a position of weakness (RHD) for a position of strength (LW).  Landeskog has played his entire life on the left wing, and to trade for him with the purposes of moving him to an oft-position is not a good look.  The most I'd give up for Landeskog is Bean & Kuokkanen.

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2 hours ago, SuckaPunchd said:

Patience people. Julien Gauthier is all these things you guys have mentioned in having speed and size, physicality, net drives and net front presence. And he's most likely going to crack the lineup next season. Nicolas Roy is a very similar player with size and speed, at center, who may be more defensively reliable than Goat. Either way, you have two guys who are going to bring that style of hockey to the forward corps in the near future. Which is why we are only giving guys like Stalberg 1 year deals to gap the development required for Goats and Roy. 

Is Gauthier rookie-of-the-year quality? Maybe. But you'd rather wait on that chance - especially when there is just as much chance that RF keeps him in the A all next season - than get a bonafide guy who is available now and already a proven leader? 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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2 hours ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

I was in the middle of typing a post on Gauthier, and you beat me to it.  And as I've stated as far as a Landeskog/Faulk trade, it is a bad idea to trade a player from a position of weakness (RHD) for a position of strength (LW).  Landeskog has played his entire life on the left wing, and to trade for him with the purposes of moving him to an oft-position is not a good look.  The most I'd give up for Landeskog is Bean & Kuokkanen.

Please list all these LWs we have who hit everything that moves and create havoc in all three zones -- and then explain how any RHD with five years in the league and at -80 is "strong." By that standard, Ryan Murphy, at -33 in just 135 games, is a future hall-of-famer.

 

Not that it matters. Sakic doesn't want Faulk.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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47 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Please list all these LWs we have who hit everything that moves and create havoc in all three zones -- and then explain how any RHD with five years in the league and at -80 is "strong." By that standard, Ryan Murphy, at -33 in just 135 games, is a future hall-of-famer.

 

Not that it matters. Sakic doesn't want Faulk.

Judging by that standard, a trade for -33 Murphy for a -45 Duchene would be considered even?  You seem very hung up on +/- stats, but how many other players have played they're whole career behind a goalie who's a career .909?

 

And to answer the initial question, we have at least 3 LW's who have at least 24 pts and better than a -17 this season.

 

Edit to add--- tell me how many Defenseman have been career + players while playing in Carolina?

Edited by PenaltyKiller17

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Rem, although I don't take Luke's opinion seriously because he doesn't follow this team on a daily basis, I feel a move this big will likely not happen.  GMRF makes it seem like we need to be in it after 5 games, which if we're moving on either Landeskog or Duchene, it shouldn't matter imo.  I was listening to Adrian Dater's podcast yesterday, and he commented on how Duchene looks miserable in the locker room.  His name has been in the rumor mill for at least 3 seasons now, with this one probably being the loudest.  He knows his time is near, and Colorado's not doing him any favors by keeping him in that environment.

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1 hour ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

Edit to add--- tell me how many Defenseman have been career + players while playing in Carolina?

 

Well, Pesce and Slavin have been. And over the same time Faulk is -33. 

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21 minutes ago, coastal_caniac said:

Duchene is a career -45 player.   Funny how the same people who are so quick to throw out a bad plus minus have been the loudest for trading for Duchene.  Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

I've argued against the +\- stat for years, and I've pointed out a few times Duchene's stats.

 

Ive always said there are many variables that go into bad or good plus minus.  Perfect example, Chris Kunitz is a career +193, but would you want him over Skinner or Aho?  Semin was a plus player for his entire Hurricane career.  It's all about the team you play for.  And when you play your whole career on a lottery team with a goalie's who career average is .909, and on a team that's always towards the bottom of the league in scoring, I don't see how any player can be plus players.

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30 minutes ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

I've argued against the +\- stat for years, and I've pointed out a few times Duchene's stats.

 

Ive always said there are many variables that go into bad or good plus minus.  Perfect example, Chris Kunitz is a career +193, but would you want him over Skinner or Aho?  Semin was a plus player for his entire Hurricane career.  It's all about the team you play for.  And when you play your whole career on a lottery team with a goalie's who career average is .909, and on a team that's always towards the bottom of the league in scoring, I don't see how any player can be plus players.

 

It's a useless endeavor here.  I gave up a long time ago.  This is about the only site I've visited where people put so much faith in that stat.

 

And in the words of Forrest Gump...."that's all i have to say about that"

Edited by coastal_caniac

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40 minutes ago, coastal_caniac said:

 

It's a useless endeavor here.  I gave up a long time ago.  This is about the only site I've visited where people put so much faith in that stat.

Agreed.

 

I'll go as far as saying hockey's the only sport that points the stat out.  The NBA has used it over the past decade, but it is not used as a barometer for individual players.  The only +\- that matters is goal differential, which has Carolina at -16.

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12 hours ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

And to answer the initial question, we have at least 3 LW's who have at least 24 pts and better than a -17 this season.

That doesn't answer the question at all. None of them hits anyone, which is why our centers struggle. (See Hag's post above.)

 

12 hours ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

tell me how many Defenseman have been career + players while playing in Carolina?

This is the wrong question. The right one is why is J. Faulk's +/- is so exponentially worse than all the D around him? At least, that's the one Sakic will ask if/when RF floats him.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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