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Trade rumors and talk

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14 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

Tampa is supposedly wanting a puck moving D man.  I don't wanna move Faulk to an eastern team but I could see a

 

Faulk

Lack(retaining half the cap hit)

 

 

Drouin

Bishop

 

dually beneficial trade. TB needs a goalie to expose and won't be able to afford all their O players.

 

drouin and bishop would be great additions for us.  We need 2nd line wings to go with Rask

 

 

Where do i sign?

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I don't mind moving Faulk to an Eastern team. More goals for us.

 

I wanted Drouin back during his troubles, and took some flack for it, but he's not going anywhere now that that is settled down. Bishop on the other hand is a rental soon to be UFA.

 

But taking the goalies out, I'd do Faulk for Drouin instantly. That would clearly net us way more goals, and Drouin, on a 27 goal pace has huge upside.

 

I can't imagine it happening though. I just can't imagine Faulk has that much value. If I'm wrong, do it!

Edited by remkin
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A couple of dominos have fallen 

 

Eaves to Ducks for a conditional 1st (ducks make the conference finals and eaves play in 50% of games or its a 2nd).

 

Jurco to the Hawks for a 3rd

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43 minutes ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

If we are to trade Faulk, could it at least be for a position of weakness, like a #1 center?  Could we at least agree on that?

 

 

I'm not sure we're so strong anywhere that it can't be upgraded.

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3 hours ago, Bigfist said:

A couple of days ago, someone put Peters' name in with the likes of Coach K and Bill Belichick, each of whom would be top 5 in their various professions.    Now being mentioned in the same breath as King Felix?  Hyperbole anyone?  Pretty soon someone is going to say Peters is better than Scotty Bowman, Toe Blake, and Mike Babcock.

 

Felix had all sorts of peripheral numbers that indicated he was a great pitcher, well beyond his ERA and win/loss record.  Baseball lends itself to that sort of evaluation.  But as long as we are talking baseball, I will bring up a name that I have brought up in the past.  Manny Acta.  Managed Cleveland from 2010-2012, three horrible seasons, but the team was in a rebuild.  When he was fired, there was a lot of outcry...."we have no talent" many yelled.  "Why fire Manny?"  Well, with basically the same team, in 2013, Terry Francona took this "rebuilding team" to the playoffs.  

 

I will grant that the jury is out on Peters, but that is a long way from saying he is the best coach in 20 years.  I just don't get the reasoning.  Time may prove you right (and I hope you are right), but I am skeptical, to say the least.

 

I believe I'm the first post you referred to above, so I'll point out that it's not a matter of you "not getting the reasoning".  Instead, you misinterpreted the point I was trying to make.  I wasn't implying that Bill Peters should be grouped with Belichik and Coack K, lol.  I was just using those 2 to point out how misleading it can be to judge a coach solely by his record over his first few years.  

 

My take is that Peters is working with below average overall NHL talent but that he's done enough with it that I give him at least another season before I think about throwing him out.  Granted, it hasn't showed up in the record so I'm sure you'll ask what I base that on. The past few seasons the Canes have often seemed completely outclassed by the competition.  This year, very infrequently and only lately.  And history has given us enough big season-to-season turnarounds by NHL teams that I want to see what Peters does once RF uses the resources he's been stockpiling to boost our talent level.

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1 hour ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

If we are to trade Faulk, could it at least be for a position of weakness, like a #1 center?  Could we at least agree on that?

Nope. Any scoring forward. I don't if he does it from the bench.

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2 hours ago, realmdrakkar said:

 

 

I'm not sure we're so strong anywhere that it can't be upgraded.

So you think Skinner or Aho should have to play 3rd line or out of position?  I'm not convinced he's an upgrade over either.  

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55 minutes ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

So you think Skinner or Aho should have to play 3rd line or out of position?  I'm not convinced he's an upgrade over either.  

 

It would be a lovely conundrum to face, ja?

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I would gladly take Drouin for Faulk, and mores the better if Yzerman has a brain cramp and includes the goalies. More realistic is we do something for Bishop. Is Tampa really still shopping Drouin? And I saw Eaves for a conditional 2nd rounder. If he fetched a conditional first, that's amazing. I remember him as a fourth liner most of his time here, and not one I was sorry to see leave. I know he has 20 goals this year, but he's getting up there in age, and I think this year's production is an outlier. Admittedly, I haven't kept up with him, but I think he moved on from the Canes to several years on Detroit's 4th line.

 

Chad LaRose scored 17 or 18 goals one season, and 2 years later he was out of the league.

Edited by bluedevilcane
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Again with the Faulk... Oh well. Let me ask this if we can keep Faulk and get a top center in the off-season isn't that a better way?

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21 minutes ago, OBXer said:

Again with the Faulk... Oh well. Let me ask this if we can keep Faulk and get a top center in the off-season isn't that a better way?

I don't know whether it's a better way, OBX. Please understand that I'm not saying that to be provocative or to prolong what is clearly a sore subject for you. I say it because I sincerely believe that fans - you included - would be calling for the head of any other Dman who had compiled similar stats.

 

Our system is built from the back end out, so it depends on strong D that knows when - and more important, when not - to pinch. Justin's numbers, when contrasted to the fact that other, less-experienced D on the same team, clearly indicate that he still doesn't know the difference. I have rooted for him to "get it" and become the shut-down guy we all expected him to be, because if he can, we will also see his offensive numbers skyrocket. If you take care of your own house first, the rest falls into place.

 

So to your question, if we're building based on buying low and selling high, and knowing we've got a barn full of young Dmen being brought up through BP's system, let me ask you this question: When will Justin ever have greater trade value than he does right now? If we keep him until his FA year we're going to get rental returns, and the only way I see us re-signing him is if, between now and then, he tailors his game to BP's system something he hasn't managed to do in three years time. I think it only happens at this point in one of two ways: (1) he consistently makes better decisions about when to stay at home (which, playing with Slavin, perhaps can happen, or (2) we convert him to an RW.

 

Don't laugh, but I've thought about this a lot. He's got the size and offensive skill to make the conversion, and lord knows he prefers playing in the O-zone. But unless he can become a better fit in BP's system - somehow - I don't see him here beyond his current deal, and if that's the case, RF's job is to get the best possible return. I'm just not sure there will ever be a better one for him than right now.

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I don't know whether it's a better way, OBX. Please understand that I'm not saying that to be provocative or to prolong what is clearly a sore subject for you. I say it because I sincerely believe that fans - you included - would be calling for the head of any other Dman who had compiled similar stats.

 

It really isn't a sore subject with me. It is one I have trouble understanding. I believe everyone is available and if the deal is right you take it. When it comes to Faulk my bbiggest hurdle is why do any of us think we can make a hockey trade at this point in the season. When we were talking a Col trade earlier many wanted to trade Faulk a pick and a prospect. That would be foolish at best and only points out that for some it is trade Faulk at any cost. Not going to happen.

 

I get teams want shut down Dmen so do I and Slavin and Pesce has filled the bill but most teams also want a puck moving Dman that can run the power play, has a heavy shot, can join the rush, generate offense, play adequate defense and score goals. That is Faulk. Now if you trade him you don't have a replacement yet. Hanifin hasn't matured, Murphy hasn't become that PP Quarterback, Fluery is still untested. So if you trade Faulk to fix your Offense you now have to go shopping again to fix your defense. That is what doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

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2 hours ago, OBXer said:

 

It really isn't a sore subject with me. It is one I have trouble understanding. I believe everyone is available and if the deal is right you take it. When it comes to Faulk my bbiggest hurdle is why do any of us think we can make a hockey trade at this point in the season. When we were talking a Col trade earlier many wanted to trade Faulk a pick and a prospect. That would be foolish at best and only points out that for some it is trade Faulk at any cost. Not going to happen.

 

I get teams want shut down Dmen so do I and Slavin and Pesce has filled the bill but most teams also want a puck moving Dman that can run the power play, has a heavy shot, can join the rush, generate offense, play adequate defense and score goals. That is Faulk. Now if you trade him you don't have a replacement yet. Hanifin hasn't matured, Murphy hasn't become that PP Quarterback, Fluery is still untested. So if you trade Faulk to fix your Offense you now have to go shopping again to fix your defense. That is what doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

This sums up perfectly how I feel about the situation.  Top and I generally agree on  things too, it's just this one subject I have strong objection too.

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2 hours ago, OBXer said:

 

It really isn't a sore subject with me. It is one I have trouble understanding. I believe everyone is available and if the deal is right you take it. When it comes to Faulk my bbiggest hurdle is why do any of us think we can make a hockey trade at this point in the season. When we were talking a Col trade earlier many wanted to trade Faulk a pick and a prospect. That would be foolish at best and only points out that for some it is trade Faulk at any cost. Not going to happen.

 

I get teams want shut down Dmen so do I and Slavin and Pesce has filled the bill but most teams also want a puck moving Dman that can run the power play, has a heavy shot, can join the rush, generate offense, play adequate defense and score goals. That is Faulk. Now if you trade him you don't have a replacement yet. Hanifin hasn't matured, Murphy hasn't become that PP Quarterback, Fluery is still untested. So if you trade Faulk to fix your Offense you now have to go shopping again to fix your defense. That is what doesn't make sense to me.

Okay, thanks for explaining your POV (you too, PK).

 

My side of it is that if a trade is good for both teams, it doesn't matter when it happens. I would have loved to see the trade you describe two weeks ago, and wouldn't think it foolish at all; you've gotta get to give, and Duche is a rare talent. But Sakic is playing a game, the only one he has to play at the moment, and in that regard, I agree it wasn't going to happen. But I don't agree that RF would not offer those exact same pieces for the right guy. 

 

As far as QB on PP, Faulk hasn't been it. It's been TT and Hanifin as often as not, in terms of bringing the puck up ice. Yes, huge shot, indisputable, undeniable--but that's also the reason another team would want him, certainly not for his defense. Slavin, Pesce, Hanifin all have the skills to bring that same shot, and as they pick their opportunities to do so, it'll happen more often. So if the crux of your aversion to dealing Faulk is for what he brings on the PP, and the idea that we'd need to find a replacement, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't think any team whose system is built around D needs a -20 Dman, and I think one of Fleury or McKeown certainly can't be any worse than Faulk on that side of the puck, and could very likely be better. 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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In terms of having to shop to fill voids created by trading established NHL roster players, that's not necessarily true. Especially for this team and defense. The whole reason why we'd consider trading one of our young d-men is because we have 3 or 4 right behind them in development waiting for the opportunity to break into the NHL. Fleury, Carrick, McKeown. If we were to trade forwards, that is another story. Of our forwards in the system, no one really is knocking on the NHL door. Next year we'll potentially have Gauthier and Roy getting there. 

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They could still make a trade after the trade deadline, but the player wouldn't be eligible for the playoffs (if my mind is right on the issue).  I have thought that Sakic's price may go down a bit after March 1 if he doesn't move those guys.  We could still see a trade.

Edited by super_dave_1
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2 hours ago, OBXer said:

 

. So if you trade Faulk to fix your Offense you now have to go shopping again to fix your defense. That is what doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

That's OK. If RF feels that all of  the D Yutes aren't going to be ready next year,  then yes he would have to go shopping for an additional Dman. I know a few that are UFA's or RFA  going into next year. Shattenkirk perhaps (too expensive), Karl Alzner (good fit) Dmitry Kulikov (26 years old and plays big minutes) Michael Del Zotto (26), Johnny Oduya (35 years old but could be a place holder until the yutes are ready give him a 1 or 2 year contract, Cody Franson(?)  RF has multiple playing cards and a few under the table that he could use.

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2 hours ago, SuckaPunchd said:

In terms of having to shop to fill voids created by trading established NHL roster players, that's not necessarily true. Especially for this team and defense. The whole reason why we'd consider trading one of our young d-men is because we have 3 or 4 right behind them in development waiting for the opportunity to break into the NHL. Fleury, Carrick, McKeown. If we were to trade forwards, that is another story. Of our forwards in the system, no one really is knocking on the NHL door. Next year we'll potentially have Gauthier and Roy getting there. 

 

 

I think this is the big thing.  Like Top says, there's no denying Faulk's shot - but if we're talking about having to replace him if he's traded, man, we're a lot closer to replacing him with someone in the system than we are to finding that 1C in our system without a trade - and like some have said, i don't think a 1C UFA is happening over the summer either.  Like everyone else, i'd love for Francis to find a 1C without giving up a roster player, top prospect, or top draft pick, but unless Poturalski makes a leap none of us are expecting between now and October or Roy is closer than we think he is, Francis is going to have to do something to find that 1C.  And if Faulk's shot can get him that 1C, i'd rather take our chances on one of the D-yutes being ready to jump in (or we find a journeyman 2nd/3rd-pairing D-man) than to head into another season with Rask as our 1C.

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Well, I'm still fine with Rask. I just want some big, hard, fast (oops, this is a family forum) skill up front that isn't afraid to hit, and if we can't get that player now, I'm serious: Let's give Justin the rest of this year at RW and see what he can do. He's got the shot accuracy and toughness, and he doesn't much wanna play D anyway.

Edited by top-shelf-1
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On the Faulk thing, I think Top sums up my take in terms of Faulk himself and his possible peak trade value.

 

The end game is that Francis is going to have to convert all of that defense in the pipeline to offense. Not only is an offensively starved team never going to be a cup contender, they also lead to a boring game for most fans. Yes, there are hockey purists who enjoy a tight checking game, but there is a reason that NHL people are desperately trying to increase scoring. No matter how much someone might enjoy a good positional play, taking the side show of fighting out (it's going away anyway) the most exciting single event in a hockey game is a goal, and the next one is a huge save or a puck ringing off the pipe.

 

To go even further, Carolina need scoring because, lots of crest sniping and shots with little to show for it has been a weakness for years now.

 

I will admit that Faulk does score goals. As Top has pointed out, that is his thing. That is part of why he is a 3 time All Star. And part of why he might return something nice up front. Faulk has 11 goals, and right now, we do not have another D man capable of that. It is a fair point that this could be an issue. We do need some sort of legitimate scoring threat on the D line. That is the risk in trading Faulk.

 

BUT, the guy you get back will likely score more goals. Faulk has 11, Duchene has 16. Last year Faulk had 16 goals, Duchene 30 goals.

 

Still, I really do get that Faulk is our best offensive D man, and that would be missed.

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I want to put this separate.

 

For me when it comes to the consideration of trading Faulk it comes down to timing and return on a trade. In the end, in my mind there is only one guy who I would trade who could bring the return we need. It is a process of elimination. And this team needs that guy now, but at least next year. I get that this is a 5 year plan, but it just seems incredulous to think that this market sustains another bad year next year. We don't have to have everything in place for a cup run next year, but we need playoffs.

 

We need more offensively highly effective forwards if we are to have an inside track to to the playoffs. We are currently #26 in goals for, and #13 in goals against.

 

So we need at least one high end forward added, and we need that guy to be able to be high end immediately. How do we get that guy?

 

UFA and drafting will not do it (UFA is at best a long shot, and drafting a guy will not help next year). We have to trade for him. Clearly trading offense for offense doesn't get that done, and we aren't loaded with highly valued goalies, so we must trade a defenseman.

 

I contend that Slavin and Pesce are untouchable. If GMRF does not agree, then fine, but they are our shut down pair, and Slavin especially has offensive upside too.

 

Fluery, McKeown, and Bean are prospects. They are still cooking. It is hard to imagine that they will fetch true value. If we could get a high end, almost ready forward prospect, then maybe, but unless that prospect is refusing and AHL assignment or relieved himself in the GMs Fruit Loops, he isn't getting traded. Hainsey is gone, and while a second round pick is nice, that isn't the kind of return that gets this done.

 

The only other two D men with the potential to return what we need are Hanifin and Faulk.

 

I have come to the conclusion that I would not trade Hanifin unless the return was very elite: Draisaitl, Puljajarvi, etc. And I don't think he fetches that right now. He is going to be too good. He has top dman in him. He has name brand top D man in him. He is not there yet, but he will be. I fully admit that I may well be wrong. But this is my post, and it's what I think. I just see too many high end plays. He can get the puck, make a high end move to get an opening and put a very high end pass right on the tape of the advancing forward across the ice. This is a kid. He was 19 just a month ago. He's 6'3" and smooth as silk. This was Francis' highest draft pick.

 

This leaves Faulk. Faulk has a highly effective shot from the back end. He also can make moves and get his shot off. He is the most legit point getter on our blueline. He is also a RHD, not our strongest side. It is not perfect. There is some risk. The right side will be relatively weak until McKeown is ready for prime time. Heck, we might even have to trade or UFA a #4 RHD for next year. But Faulk has one glaring weakness. He gives back all of the goals he scores, with interest. I don't think we have a single defensman who gets beaten cleanly more often. You know why Faulk attacks and tries to pinch off forwards so much? Because if he tries to play straight up defense he gets beaten, a lot.

 

Yet Faulk is the elusive RHD that can bring points. He is currently a 3 time all star.

 

If Faulk brings back that high end, 65 point or better forward. You have to do it. We have Fleury and McKeown about ready to go. We have Bean, still a very high end prospect cooking. We have Slavin and Pesce to anchor things, and I believe next year we'll have a Hanifin that is starting to play like a guy who people say "Sure glad we didn't trade that guy."

 

We have been starved for scoring up front and simply put we will NEVER be where we want to be if we are in the bottom 1/3 in scoring. (Bottom 10 right now in order: Colorado, New Jersey, Vancouver, Arizona, Carolina Buffalo, Detroit, LA, Florida, Philly). There is no clear cut fix for this next year in our system.

 

It has to happen. If not now, then offseason, but it has to happen.

 

 

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