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2 hours ago, raleighcaniac said:

Lots of intangibles in play with the possibilities.  I watched Buf v. Phil last night before the Canes debacle. Both teams fighting for a post season shot. Was an intense, emotional game with at least one real anger fight that I saw, and alot of scrums. In other words those teams care and were showing heart. They wanted to win. Our guys don't. No sacrifice. No fight. For me its not if but when RF signs a legit free agent make sure he's young enough that he still feels he has a lot to prove and plays with fire in his belly. 

 

Without bringing the storm of criticism that will follow (I already know where 90% of you stand) Evander Kane played a strong "I care" game last night and got himself a goal was banging in the corners and at the top of the paint on numerous occasions. 24 goals so far. If bringing a player like him here upsets the nice boy image our team places such a focus on then so be it, we aren't wining anyway. If Kane played here starting next season and popped in a quick 3 or 4 goals first ten games and pummeled a couple players as well, he'd be the top selling sweater in the Eye. Fans need someone to rally around and no-one on our present roster or Checkers roster fits the mold.  If not Kane there are others.  I'm sick of our choir boy roster. Sign some men with attitude. If they bring a bit of baggage so be it. Our team needs a major league attitude adjustment.

That's you, not I raleighcaniac. From when I was 1st introduced to hockey in this area, I thought that them most astute thing that JR EVER DID, was to cultivate a wholesome atmosphere in this area, making it truly family friendly. As discussed ad infinitum on here, the competition for sports dollars really puts hockey at a disadvantage. In this so-called Bible Belt, playing the type of hockey apparently you advocate, and popularized in arenas like Buffalo, Philly, Boston and the like, IMHO would lead to certain failure. I have always loved how families with young children feel safe letting their youngsters run around, not having to fight the drunkeness attendant with the atmosphere you apparently desire.

 

I din't know which Kane is worst, but give me guys like Slavin ANY DAY.

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I think raleighcaniac was referring about the Canes being to easy to play against.. I agree that the whole team plays like choir boys, afraid to hit or stand up for a team mate.. But for whatever reason it seems to be the teams identity, and its not much fun to watch. as you can see by the falling numbers who attend the games, even us home grown Bible Belters can appreciate a team playing the game well.. Like you I despise sitting in the arena next to a foul mouth drunken slob who has no respect for those around him. however I figure he paid the admission price just as I did and use the moment to teach my kids what happens when no one kicks your -ss a time or two along lifes journey. You grow up to thinking the rest of us are here just to see you shine... just my opinion.. here's to the 3rd pick in the 2017 draft

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5 hours ago, danimal-ch1 said:

Is that because anyone traded to a new team last year would be unprotected this year?  I still haven't grasped this whole expansion thing. That would make sense and set up for a very interesting draft.

Here are the rules, but briefly, teams have two protection options:

- A total of eight skaters and one keeper, or 

- Seven forwards, three defensemen, and one keeper

- In addition, teams MUST protect players with No Movement Clauses (unless they've agreed to waive them). Those players do count toward their list of protected players; and

- First- and second-year players are not eligible for the expansion draft (and therefore are not counted toward the team's protected list).

- The new Las Vegas franchise MUST take one player from every NHL team.

 

In my opinion, RF and PK made a calculated decision last summer, upon getting out from under Eric's and Cam's contracts, not to immediately spend the payroll that freed up, and to instead figure out, based on each player's performance this season who their "keepers" would be for the ExDraft.

 

They were pretty confident Aho would be at least a bottom-six guy. They were confident Rask would be at least that too, so they locked him down for six years at a very reasonable price. They went out and got TT, and he's had this year to show whether he's part of the future. Giving him that opportunity came at the price of taking on Bickell's contract, a pretty big gamble given his medical status--even before his MS diagnosis. 

 

They also had to see if Slavin and Pesce were the real deal. They had to decide whether Skinner will have more long-term value as a member of this team or as a tradable asset, before his two-year NTC kicks in this coming July 1. And neither last nor least, would Jordan be able to sustain his performance of the second half last year?

 

I've been saying for some time now that I get why everybody's disappointed in the results this year. But I think RF decided that because he didn't have to protect Slavin or Pesce or Hanifin in order to keep them (they're all second-year guys), what he did have to figure out is (1) which protection option he would use, and (2) which players/picks/prospects that will give him to deal during this offseason, in order to make the needed upgrades in the crease and among the top six forwards. 

 

Again, all this is my opinion. Some think the org was just cheap last summer, and that's fine. I'm of the opinion that despite all the pressure to get in the playoffs, RF bravely stuck to the plan. He knew the ExDraft was coming, and he was prudent and responsible. Instead of doing what JR would have (spending money like a drunken sailor) RF went out of his way not to make a deal simply for the sake of making a deal. He knew the D was close, but (smartly, IMO) wanted to see it for a full year. He locked down solid bottom-six guys and has at least a couple top-sixers. And now, he has a wealth of assets to finish the job.

Edited by top-shelf-1
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2 hours ago, KJUNKANE said:

 I have always loved how families with young children feel safe letting their youngsters run around, not having to fight the drunkeness attendant with the atmosphere you apparently desire.

That's a conclusion supported by nothing I have said. Drunkenness in the stands because I want a tougher team on the ice?  That's a reach. Not to mention too expensive to get drunk at PNC. The Canes at the moment are a pansy team playing to an empty rink.  Neither is sustainable. They're a vanilla team lacking identity with a style of play that is proven at this point not to be a threat; no agitators or willing players; they're a boring team to watch.  The Canes will continue to lose with their speed/skill approach because 70% of the league already has those ingredients plus toughness that we do not. Thus we remain near the bottom. I want a winner and could care less about loving how families feel safe letting their children run around who mostly could care less being there.

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1 hour ago, raleighcaniac said:

Not to mention too expensive to get drunk at PNC.

 

You can start getting drunk in the East Parking Lot which technically is PNC but if you disagree with that you can start to get drunk in the East Parking Lot and finish that bad boy off with a 8-dollar Porter just inside the doors.

 

It's easier to hate kids and those people who haul them to the game after that.

 

Or to just hate everything until we crush the opponents into submission.

 

Sarchasm, kinda

Edited by coastal_caniac
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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Again, all this is my opinion. Some think the org was just cheap last summer, and that's fine. I'm of the opinion that despite all the pressure to get in the playoffs, RF bravely stuck to the plan. He knew the ExDraft was coming, and he was prudent and responsible. Instead of doing what JR would have (spending money like a drunken sailor) RF went out of his way not to make a deal simply for the sake of making a deal. He knew the D was close, but (smartly, IMO) wanted to see it for a full year. He locked down solid bottom-six guys and has at least a couple top-sixers. And now, he has a wealth of assets to finish the job.

 

remkin likes this. I also buy it. And I hope we're right! And now I stop referring to myself in the third person. 

Edited by remkin

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I think the next 6 months, RF has to prove he can make bold moves and PK has to prove he is willing to spend money to get this team to the next level. I'm completely on board that the goaltending is not where it needs to be, but we have 2 veteran goalies under contract next year, and I'm not sure how we pick off a goalie from another team in anticipation of the expansion draft unless one of them goes the other way in a goalie+ trade. 

 

Having said that, I'm in the camp that we need to fix our offense first and foremost. I could be wrong, but I believe the year after the Cup, we just missed the playoffs but had 6 twenty goal scorers (Brindy, Eric, Stillman, Whitney, Cole and J. Williams). The games were always exciting, with Lavi's petal to the metal mentality and that much offensive creativity. Fast forward, and we just finished a 4 game home and home with the two worst teams in the league, who had absolutely nothing to play for, and scored 5 goals in the 4 games combined. It's time to use our abundance of young D and draft picks to bring in some proven top line talent for our top line. I'll leave it to Francis to figure out who and how, but if our top offseason "upgrade" to our offense is to trade for a TT caliber player in exchange for taking a bad contract from a contender, next year will be more of the same. I'm not down on TT but I don't necessarily see him as a top 6 guy. Aho can be. Skinner too. And Jordan as a second line 2 way center. Lindholm plays a two way game, but does any serious contender have forward in their top 6 with fewer than 10 goals 60 games in? So Ronnie has his work cut out for him and I hope PK has the purse strings open enough to make the needed changes. 

 

In in the space of a few weeks, this team has gone from one point out of the playoffs to almost unwatchable.

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I want to believe TS1, and I will if RF makes the moves. A top center, top-6 winger isn't normally easy to come by. There will at least be Duchene there this offseason, and with the ExDraft it could cause other players normally unavailable maybe available. But that's not a guarantee. I'm hoping it's the most interesting and most exciting offseason for us. 3rd overall could be a nice asset to use for one of those pieces, mostly the top center. 

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12 hours ago, raleighcaniac said:

That's a conclusion supported by nothing I have said. Drunkenness in the stands because I want a tougher team on the ice?  That's a reach. Not to mention too expensive to get drunk at PNC. The Canes at the moment are a pansy team playing to an empty rink.  Neither is sustainable. They're a vanilla team lacking identity with a style of play that is proven at this point not to be a threat; no agitators or willing players; they're a boring team to watch.  The Canes will continue to lose with their speed/skill approach because 70% of the league already has those ingredients plus toughness that we do not. Thus we remain near the bottom. I want a winner and could care less about loving how families feel safe letting their children run around who mostly could care less being there.

I miss the fighting and the hard hitting.  Everyone seemed to love that side of hockey.  It's just about gone, especially for the Canes.  Oh and stash airplane bottles in your belt and buy a couple of $5 diet cokes and get lit up like a Christmas tree for only $10 and cost of mini bottles.  Kids should be prepared to hear  bad words, loud angry rants, and drunk adults at hockey games.  This isn't  college basketball.

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RE: the expansion draft.  IMO, it is the reason we did not trade Stepniak and Nordstrom.  By rule we are required to expose a minimum of two players that meet eligibility criteria, are under contract for next year and don't have a NMC.  The only forwards we have that meet this are Skinner, Rask, Teravainen, Lindholm, Stepniak and Nordstrom.  Seems straightforward to me.  The rub we are facing now is that we also have to expose a defensman. As of right now, the ONLY exposable defenseman we have is Faulk.  I believe Dahlbeck will qualify if we qualify him as a RFA.  We also have to expose 1 goalie, but needless to say we have two options there that will not make anyone lose sleep.  

 

I for one cannot wait to see how GMRF uses our flexibility.  If we are go with the 7 forwards, 3 defensemen protection strategy, we have 3 forward slots and 2 defesemen slots to use as trade leverage.  There are a lot of teams that have too many players to protect.  We could use that leverage, our picks, and our prospects to get a couple of top-6 forwards in here.  I cannot remember all the teams specifically, but I think the Rangers, Ducks, Kings, Wild, Blackhawks, Blue Jackets, Jets, Lightning, and Stars need to do work to not lose a key piece to expansion.  To me we should Target the Ducks.  They have two goalies (Gibson and Andersen) that could be a #1 for us, and they have to expose 1.  We could send them Lack plus picks for one of their goalies, and their problem is solved.   

 

The possibilities are not endless, but they are many.

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Nice post ironman, at this point utilizing the expansion draft would definitely be a chance for Francis to make moves. He is a creative deal maker, and that would be a time to do it. I have to think he would be able to upgrade at goalie. Teams with two really good goalies are going to be at risk. Frankly, even if we ended up paying Eddie to sit for a year or traded him or Ward for a 12th round draft pick, it would be worth it.

 

If he can find a forward that way, great. The only thing I would say is that we don't need another second liner. We need a guy who has a very real expectation of finding himself in the top 45 scorers in the league in a good year. I think that is going to require a trade that still moves a strong piece of defense out.

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11 hours ago, SuckaPunchd said:

A top center, top-6 winger isn't normally easy to come by.

That's absolutely true. I think by accumulating all the assets it has and by "saving" on payroll this year, the org should be in great shape to capitalize on all the positioning and dealing teams will inevitably be doing both before and after both the entry and Ex drafts.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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1 hour ago, danimal-ch1 said:

Kids should be prepared to hear  bad words, loud angry rants, and drunk adults at hockey games whenever the Rags and Flyers are in town.

Fixed it for ya. :lol:

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14 hours ago, raleighcaniac said:

That's a conclusion supported by nothing I have said. Drunkenness in the stands because I want a tougher team on the ice?  That's a reach. Not to mention too expensive to get drunk at PNC. The Canes at the moment are a pansy team playing to an empty rink.  Neither is sustainable. They're a vanilla team lacking identity with a style of play that is proven at this point not to be a threat; no agitators or willing players; they're a boring team to watch.  The Canes will continue to lose with their speed/skill approach because 70% of the league already has those ingredients plus toughness that we do not. Thus we remain near the bottom. I want a winner and could care less about loving how families feel safe letting their children run around who mostly could care less being there.

No, rc, you didn't say that, and quite honestly I too hate to see our team continually getting pushed around by many we play, or see Aho/Skinner mauled without retribution from any teammate, but I still enjoy the wholesome atmosphere that our arena eschews, or at least the feeling I get when there. What I'm talking about, and must admit have never experienced personally, in places like Philadelphia, possibly New York, Boston I understand that one wears his opposing team jersey at his own risk. So, surely there must be some balance, but if it means taking on someone like Evander Kane, or any of a number of cheap shot goons, than I for one am out of there. I've had my days of living in New Orleans and fun filled Mardi Gras, as well as LSU football with wholesale drunkenness in the stands, and No Thank You to that. And as far as your thoughts on the "children run around who mostly could care less", I've seen many who are enthralled by the game.

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I want to preface this with a couple of things. First, a lot of members on here point to the lack of grit and standing up for your teammates, and our own head of scouting said the team could use more of that. So, I'm not saying we don't need some more of that. I'm just wondering what "tougher teams" actually do? I don't watch a ton of non Canes hockey, but I do watch some, and further, I watch the other team we are playing.

 

What, specifically, puts fear into a would be cheap shot artist from the other team? Sean Avery was one of the biggest little punks I can remember. One of the ultimate cheap shot artists. And that was when fighting was a thing. He constantly got away with it. He rarely fought, and the one time I saw him "fight" he sucker punched our guy and broke his face and never actually had to fight.

 

Seems to me what happens on gritty teams is that their guy gets run. Everyone "jumps in". They grab and push, and probably level a couple of threatening F bombs. In the playoffs apply a stern face-wash,  then skate away. Even in the past, guys would send their goons our to fight each other, not the offender. Only in the most egregious dirty hits did a guy agree to a "punishment" fight next game.

 

Lots of actual players have talked about the self-policing thing, so I'm just baying at the wind a bit here, and I'm not out there on the ice.

I guess it is important that guys do the skate in and take offense thing, but I'm not sure how much that ultimately stops your guys from getting run.

 

If it were me, I think I'd be most afraid if that team had a guy who would be lining me up for a huge hit later in the game. But how many times does that really happen? Plus it would be later, not in the scrum, so as fans, we'd have to notice the hit a period later and put it together with original offense.

 

To me the "grit" we need the most is battling in play. Going to the net. Digging in the corners. Laying hits. Just an overall physicality.

 

I get that team unity is important, and I do think guys need to feel like someone has their back, but we were winning with this CandyCane team when we were putting the puck in the net. Still a more primary goal IMHO. If the lack of standing up for teammates has played into our drop off in goals, then I change my mind.

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There are more than just question marks around the team's players and overall team talent and I fear there are deeper issues that we all do not want to admit to or think about (myself included).  Whether you choose to be realistic or not what we have here is a great hockey player who is an inexperienced GM and also and inexperienced first time NHL head coach on top of the overall team talent issue.  Now overall team talent is the obvious problem but it could also be 1 or 2 of the aforementioned facts that I just stated above.  I am seeing a complete lack of compete from some of our more seasoned guys which leads me to believe that Peters may have lost the locker room.  I hope that is not the case but it is lingering in the back of all of our minds.  This off season is critical to the team's success and also RF's career as a GM.  If he fails to make any acquisitions of any sort to drastically improve our top 6 (even at the expense of team defense) then he has failed as GM.  Also, if Peters gets at least 1 top 6 center (not some low tier 2nd line C) and maybe another 20 goal scorer and starts off the season poorly in his first 10 games then he should be fired as well.  The jury is now out on both of these guys.  It's time to show progress or GTFO.

Edited by bluedevil58

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OK, rant over and sorry to have hijacked the thread with my diatribe. The trades postulated above sound encouraging, particularly the exchange with the Ducks, if only. I do think RF has positioned himself well to pull off a few coups, at the expense of another season. So let the fun begin!!

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5 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

There are more than just question marks around the team's players and overall team talent and I fear there are deeper issues that we all do not want to admit to or think about (myself included).  Whether you choose to be realistic or not what we have here is a great hockey player who is an inexperienced GM and also and inexperienced first time NHL head coach on top of the overall team talent.  Now overall team talent is the obvious problem but it could also be 1 or 2 of the aforementioned facts that I just stated above.  I am seeing a complete lack of compete from some of our more seasoned guys which leads me to believe that Peters may have lost the locker room.  I hope that is not the case but it is lingering in the back of all of our minds.  This off season is critical to the team's success and also RF's career as a GM.  If he fails to make any acquisitions of any sort to drastically improve our top 6 (even at the expense of team defense) then he has failed as GM.  Also, if Peters gets at least 1 top 6 center (not some low tier 2nd line C) and maybe another 20 goal scorer and starts off the season poorly in his first 10 games then he should be fired as well.  The jury is now out on both of these guys.  It's time to show progress or GTFO.

bd58, I get your angst, but I think you've overlooked a few things.

 

1st, its not like our GM was just picked off the streets cold. He did have an apprenticeship under  JR, and who knows what else, to prepare him. Also, don't discount his connections as well as to his esteem, both of which can be huge aids in navigating troubled waters.

 

The HC, although you feel "inexperienced", apparently has received accolades from many throughout the league. They perhaps know more than us about his abilities?

 

Then, as to "lack of compete", 2 things here. The epitome of that term is embodied in the player traded to Minnesota, IMHO, and his tenure predates Peters regime. The other thing about this is that with the trades we made, we now are the youngest team in the league. Could it be that what you are seeing as a "lack of compete" is simply these youngsters simply wearing down at the end of this trying season?

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KJ,

 

I am not sure as to your question about being a young team...  It's a maybe?  Several nights both Skinner and Jordan Staal are non existent along with Lindy, Stemp, TT, and also Rask. Then you have guys like Stalberg out there who gave it their all every night.  I get why we traded him but really hated to see him go.  I admit it's harder to judge centers because usually they are responsible for D too and are playing a complete 2-way game that is seldom overlooked.  As for Peters, he received accolades through out the league however, receiving accolades does not put a win on the score board.  Like I said, I made my statement that he should be fire if and only if RF acquires talent in order for us to be able to compete against the top heavy teams in our division and the team starts out poorly through it's first 10.

 

As for RF, until I see him make a big move (which we really need) I think the verdict is still out on him even if he was JR's apprentice.  As others have pointed out, he has to make a move this off season.  Otherwise it's more of the same old same old.  If he doesn't make a move then he is failing as a GM.  I am more about results and less about ones pedigree.

Edited by bluedevil58

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38 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

......which leads me to believe that Peters may have lost the locker room.

 

^This just in, Bill Peters is lost and can't find the locker room.  This is not good.  There is a stick puck match tonight and we need somebody yelling "make a *edit* save".  I hope he finds the locker room.

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2 minutes ago, coastal_caniac said:

 

^This just in, Bill Peters is lost and can't find the locker room.  This is not good.  There is a stick puck match tonight and we need somebody yelling "make a *edit* save".  I hope he finds the locker room.

 

I like your sarcasm and I also want to point out that the same kind of attitude was exhibited towards me last off season when I told every one how much this team lacked in talent when compared to our division.  Just throwing that out there as a fresh reminder.

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If BP has lost any players, it's they who will not be around next season, not BP. That'll be the first time that's happened in this org that I'm aware of--and it works for me. I am very confident that we are done seeing Anton Babchuk types, who dis the coach, the GM, and the org, only to be welcomed back later with open arms. If some players don't like BP's style, that's good--and the sooner they're playing somewhere else, the happier I'll be.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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