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Off-Season Talk 2017

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2 hours ago, gocanes0506 said:

The center or wing debate comes down to  can we move Staal's 5 yr 30 million after next season.  If not we go winger, if so we get a center.  It is Roy's roster spot we are messing with.  Of course we could trade Roy, as I mentioned before, but we may not.  

 

Of course we go winger and give Roy a shot this year.

 

Short sighted. Yes, his goals are a bit less than we would like, but everything else about Jordan's play is perfect for a Peters coached team. Last week Canes Country had a great analysis of Jordan's season and had this comparison:

 

Quote

Player Comparison

Statistic Player A Player B Player C
Age 29 28 34
Games Played 76 75 80
Goals 12 16 18
Assists 40 29 40
Points 52 45 58
Points per Game 0.68 0.6 0.73
Points/60 1.38 1.93 1.4
Corsi for Percentage 54.6% 56.2% 49.7%
Goals for Percentage 47.6% 51.2% 60.0%
Faceoff Percentage 52.7% 59.1% 55.2%

 

Player A is Kopitar, Player B is Staal, and Player C is Koivu. We don't need to get rid of Jordan to improve our team. We need to play him more.

 

Canes Country Staal Analysis

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3 minutes ago, MinJaBen said:

We don't need to get rid of Jordan to improve our team. We need to play him more.

I saw that piece, good call. Unless Jordan wants to leave, he should be going nowhere, and getting more minutes. That line was really coming into its own, and with the steps Lindholm has taken could become the "top" line, IMO.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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The consensus is we need more scoring so I'm in on however we achieve it.  June and July will be a very interesting time for us this season.

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Im not advocating to move Staal.  My point was if we add a center, what do we do next year when we have the new guy, Staal, Rask, and Roy kicking down the door?

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3 hours ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

If goals are goals, why did the vast majority of the board vote to trade away our 3rd leading goal scorer in Faulk?

 

 

My comment on the poll at that time...

 

Quote

He's a legit, top 4 RHD.  He is not a bottom pairing guy.  He is signed for 3 more years at a friendly cap hit of $4.8M.  I would be willing to bet that Francis would have no problems making a quality trade, but these type of deals hardly ever happen during the season.  I have been thinking that he would be moved this coming summer if the other young guys keep improving.  My vote is the same here as it would be with anybody on the team.  If it makes the team better, make a trade.  That doesn't fit any of the poll answers, so I can't answer the poll.

 

As I said, goals are goals.  

 

As for your point though, it could make sense to move Faulk if there is somebody ready to assume his role.  Being willing to trade a guy does not mean that you don't want the player.  Look again at my answer above.  If it makes the team better, make a trade.

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8 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

Im not advocating to move Staal.  My point was if we add a center, what do we do next year when we have the new guy, Staal, Rask, and Roy kicking down the door?

 

I've seen no evidence that Roy will be kicking down the door next year. He is big and has very good hands, but his skating/speed is still suspect for the NHL level. He'll be at the AHL level at least two years is my guess. And if we have new guy center and at some point Roy is kicking down the door, then either Roy or Rask is the more likely candidate to be traded to fill another need.

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Actually I am one of those people. Landeskog has the tools, and your characterization of him is flat out wrong. He's a former rookie of the year and became one of the youngest Captains in the league, under a coach (Patrick "Look at me! Look at me!" Roy), who had no business being behind the bench in the first place, and who abandoned the whole team a month before camp last year. And then, Skog's GM told the entire world he's looking to trade him, and let the drama build all season to a non-existent crescendo. How would you perform under those circumstances, not to mention a Swiss Cheese D, an injured #1 keeper, and a GM who has already anointed MacKinnon as your successor?

 

As for us, it's waaaaaay too early to say a couple of 22-year olds (TT and Lindholm), a 19-year-old who projects to C (Aho), and a guy who just turned 24 and has shown improvement every year (Rask) have "proven otherwise" in terms of their abilities at C. You also completely ignore my point about the big guys in the system who are getting close (Wallmark, Roy). 

 

In terms of your "evidence" of the need for 1C, the Preds are in the Conference final despite their 1C - who is also their Captain - having a goose egg on the scoresheet for the entire playoffs thus far. And just look what the Sens have achieved with balance, against teams in Boston, NYR and Pitt who are among the heaviest in the league when it comes to talent down the middle.

 

My point, PK, is that hockey has changed. In today's game, speed and size on the wings, solid D, and great goaltending are far more important than any one guy in the middle. I've never suggested we shouldn't get a scoring C if he's out there, but I don't want to commit now to a guy for years and years, and hamstring our ability to lock down the guys we already have who have shown they can play and have not topped out. Been there, done that, don't want to do it again. If a proven C is there for the short term, fine; it's one reason I've said that if Iginla is serious about still wanting to play, we should seriously consider him. Cheap, good, and a big immovable object in front--essentially what we hoped Bicks would be this year. 

 

But my overall point is that many are posting like our chronic problem of no centers is still there. It just isn't any more. Given what we've already got and what - to my eye, at least - is much stronger pickings on the wings than at C this summer, I'd rather address the chronic problem we absolutely do still have: no big, scoring wingers.  

 

You seem to be making a lot of excuses for Landeskog, other than to flat out admit that he just didn't perform well this year.  And for all the waves about Faulk's defensive struggles that you conclude based on his +/-, Landeskog would only net us 1 goal and an additional -7.  

 

TT and Lindholm have proven, via BP, that they are better off on the wings.  That's why there was constant shuffling at that position, because nobody could do it.  I think Rask is a solid center, but I think he is who he is at this point.  He'll be a reliable 2nd/3rd center.  And Aho will be outstanding for years to come, but we have no timetable as to when he could become a center, and it's too important of a job to just leave idle.

 

And for all the talk about importance on the wings, but by my count there was only two teams that made the playoffs that didn't have a center that scored between 50-60pts in the regular season, and that's St. Louis and Montreal.  Montreal didn't have one because Galchenyuk got injured, but he was well on his way to 50pts +, as he had 44pts in 61 games played.  And St. Louis plays a completely different style than us, and they play in a more defensive-oriented conference that doesn't face nearly the firepower as us.

 

Like I said, it's unsure who's available and who's not.  Just off the top of my head, rumored available players are Kovalchuck, Landeskog, Duchene, Niederreiter, Silfverberg, Galchenyuk, Oshie, Williams.  Of that list, I'd take Niederreiter and Galchenyuk and call it a day.

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All I know is we better have a new line up next year with guys that we are excited about and know can score.  I'm sick of debating whether Rask,Lindholm.,TT or J. Staal are going to score more than 40-45points.  That's what they get every year and it is not going to get better(maybe TT).  J. staal is probably the highest paid 45 pointer in the league.  We have to add that first line C and first/second line Wing than can bring something new. I wouldn't mind some new 3rd/4th liners too.  We know what the untouchable core is, everyone else can go for all I care. I hope RF makes a bunch of moves.  Not just one or two more for a 20goal guy and 15 goal guy. I want to see 4-5 new forwards on opening night, with at least one that's a big scoring name that we can make our captain.  Let the young guys keep developing(hoping Fleury makes it here), unless one seriously challenges for a spot.  NHL proven guys, New lineup, 30goal scorer,  captain material.  Cmon RF.

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1 hour ago, danimal-ch1 said:

All I know is we better have a new line up next year with guys that we are excited about and know can score.  I'm sick of debating whether Rask,Lindholm.,TT or J. Staal are going to score more than 40-45points.  That's what they get every year and it is not going to get better(maybe TT).  J. staal is probably the highest paid 45 pointer in the league.  We have to add that first line C and first/second line Wing than can bring something new. I wouldn't mind some new 3rd/4th liners too.  We know what the untouchable core is, everyone else can go for all I care. I hope RF makes a bunch of moves.  Not just one or two more for a 20goal guy and 15 goal guy. I want to see 4-5 new forwards on opening night, with at least one that's a big scoring name that we can make our captain.  Let the young guys keep developing(hoping Fleury makes it here), unless one seriously challenges for a spot.  NHL proven guys, New lineup, 30goal scorer,  captain material.  Cmon RF.

Wow, I don't know what to say to this danimal? 4-5 NEW forwards? A 1st line C and 2nd line winger? You may be a tad disappointed as I just don't know how even Scotty Bowman could pull that off, unless you're suggesting that by "new", you are perhaps saying some of our youth? Besides, bringing in that many would erode a fair amount of the evolving "chemistry" that has been building for the past 1-2 yrs? No, I'll be overjoyed if Francis could find just 1 1st or 2nd line scorer to bolster this group. And possibly add a 3rd line force.

 

Top, you are making a huge amount of sense to me in your arguments of the lessor importance of a 1C in todays game, but despite your reasoning, and I am seeing the wisdom in it, again I refer back to RF's QS session yesterday (which BTW, I am not seeing much reference to and thought I would), that STRENGTH "down the middle" is the way MOST teams are successful these days! Now again, as gocanes0506 reminded me, either this is a gambit on his part to not expose his true intentions and tip his hand, or this is his "old school" approach to his philosophy?

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26 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

I refer back to RF's QS session yesterday (which BTW, I am not seeing much reference to and thought I would), that STRENGTH "down the middle" is the way MOST teams are successful these days! Now again, as gocanes0506 reminded me, either this is a gambit on his part to not expose his true intentions and tip his hand, or this is his "old school" approach to his philosophy?

 

I have noticed that although Francis does play his cards close to the vest that when he does say something like "that STRENGTH "down the middle" is the way MOST teams are successful these days"! it is a clear indication of his thinking.

 

Circumstance will dictate who else we sign but I doubt he is trying to be clever  and  he will look to improve the center play.

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32 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

Wow, I don't know what to say to this danimal? 4-5 NEW forwards? A 1st line C and 2nd line winger? You may be a tad disappointed as I just don't know how even Scotty Bowman could pull that off, unless you're suggesting that by "new", you are perhaps saying some of our youth? Besides, bringing in that many would erode a fair amount of the evolving "chemistry" that has been building for the past 1-2 yrs? No, I'll be overjoyed if Francis could find just 1 1st or 2nd line scorer to bolster this group. And possibly add a 3rd line force.

 

Top, you are making a huge amount of sense to me in your arguments of the lessor importance of a 1C in todays game, but despite your reasoning, and I am seeing the wisdom in it, again I refer back to RF's QS session yesterday (which BTW, I am not seeing much reference to and thought I would), that STRENGTH "down the middle" is the way MOST teams are successful these days! Now again, as gocanes0506 reminded me, either this is a gambit on his part to not expose his true intentions and tip his hand, or this is his "old school" approach to his philosophy?

first line center, top 6 winger( we all agree that's the necessity I think), now get a a 3rd or fourth  line guy in one of the package deals to shake things up back there a little. maybe a D man,  plus a new goalie, that's 5 new roster players, 4 on the forward sections. it could happen easily with all the package deals we will probably make, plus its easy to aquire 3rd/4th line guys with picks.  Shake it all up, nothings working.

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3 minutes ago, danimal-ch1 said:

Shake it all up, nothings working.

 

After spending three years rebuilding I think it would be unwise to "Shake it up"  Don't you think it is time to add to what is working instead of shaking up the entire team?

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1 hour ago, OBXer said:

 

After spending three years rebuilding I think it would be unwise to "Shake it up"  Don't you think it is time to add to what is working instead of shaking up the entire team?

That was my point OBXer, time to "shake things up" is past.

 

And must admit danimal, that I'd already lost track of Darling as it just seemed a move so flawless, so yea, 4 players is attainable..

Edited by KJUNKANE
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1 hour ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

You seem to be making a lot of excuses for Landeskog, other than to flat out admit that he just didn't perform well this year.

Yeah--because the whole rest of his team sure did! Whatever, PK...

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Wow. A sudden explosion of good hockey talk! Good stuff.

 

Faulk: He was trade bait due to soft D, and potentially high trade value on a team loaded with D, and my guess is that he was in play, but the right level of return was not there. There really were not any other Dmen that would return what we needed also.

 

After the trade deadline though, two D men notably and dramatically improved their weaknesses. Hanifin, and Faulk. After the deadine Faulk was basically an even player and was visibly better in his own end. Additionally, we are relatively short RHD in the system, and have no other D goal scorers. Taken together, Faulk moves mostly off the trade board in my view. Of course if Edmonton wants to send us Draistail for Faulk, sure, but likely now he is going nowhere. And if he can tighten the D? Just makes us that much better.

Edited by remkin

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49 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

STRENGTH "down the middle" is the way MOST teams are successful these days! Now again, as gocanes0506 reminded me, either this is a gambit on his part to not expose his true intentions and tip his hand, or this is his "old school" approach to his philosophy?

Remember how weak Lindholm was two years ago? Then he spent last summer working hard and it showed in his game. 

 

Last summer Rask had workout-preventing shoulder surgery. He is a big guy who, in terms of skill set is right there with anybody in this league. He needs mass, just like Eric Staal--well, still does. TT--same thing. 6-1 but a toothpick.

 

We've parted ways with the trainer under whom we (rightly) won the moniker "Candy Canes" (nothing against the great work Pete did for the community). Lindholm and Skinner both bought into the importance of working out, and I don't think there will be room for those who don't--especially with guys like Gauthier, Kouk, and Roy waiting in the wings. Instead of betting on a "number one C" who may or may not produce - a gambit we can't afford to lose again - I'd rather bet on the combined effect of a roster loaded with guys who know their individual responsibilities and who win because they execute. It's the model this market is built for, and it's a much more exciting - and sustainable - brand of hockey.

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The need or not for a 1C is a good debate. Both sides have legit points.

 

It is certainly the historical model to have one. I have heard lots of talk and read pieces over the years on teams trying for years to get that guy. Most of the elite teams I can think of have one.

 

I am asking those with better NHL historical knowledge, are there examples of teams with functional centers down the line up, but no really elite guy who have been perennial contenders? That's the goal Francis set out: a high bar, perennial contenders.

 

If so, then just slot Rask in there, rotate the third line guy if needed and get the scoring from the wings. If not, then try to find a center.

 

I tend to oversimplify the idea of "down the middle" as your top 3 centers and goalie. This may be wrong. But when I look at it that way, slotting 1. new guy 2. Jordan 3. Rask  (and now Darling), really seems strong. But put a guy like Oshie, or similar on Rask's wing, and he probably does fine.

 

I do wonder what Peters and Francis think on this. I was a bit surprised how firmly Peters came out against Lindholm at center. If he is not the future at center, then it is fair to say we don't have a 1C. We have several who can function at center at more of a second or third line level of productivity, but not a prototypical first line center.

 

So, do we need one? It's a fair question.

Edited by remkin

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I'm still trying to understand how you advocate speed and size on the wings and then suggest getting Jarome Iginla. Plus, Gauthier, Roy, Foegle are all going to be immovable objects in front of the net, and I suspect at least one of those this coming season. So why waste a spot on a guy trying to win his championship ring (turning 40) when this team is trying to simply establish a playoff qualifying team. I can see us investing in a 35 year old winger, but that's about the absolute oldest age I'd be comfortable with (the only exception being the living legend Jaromir Jagr-bombs). Justin Williams or Radim Vrbata type players with playoff experience, leadership qualities, and history with the Franchise and will take around 3 years and still has speed and skill to keep up with the play. 

 

I also think it's a gamble in and of itself to expect anything from our developing players in the system.. We just began to establish depth. Rushing players up will ruin that. I also see much more of a Detroit model with our system, and wouldn't be surprised to see players like Gauthier and Roy given at least some AHL seasoning time. So seeing on of those two this coming year in my opinion would be Faulk-esque. Start in the AHL, earn your way to the NHL, and prove you belong. For the record, we need at least one top-6 forward. Center or wing. Yeah, it's not normally a feasible task to acquire a top line center in the off-season. But this specific off-season, people tend to keep forgetting, all bets are off. Anyways, I'm just excited to see who we do get. And what all goes down. 

Edited by SuckaPunchd

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12 minutes ago, remkin said:

I am asking those with better NHL historical knowledge, are there examples of teams with functional centers down the line up, but no really elite guy who have been perennial contenders?

Yeah: All over Europe, and like it or not, the North American game has gone that way, with one small exception: Physicality. And where does physicality most often occur? Along the boards. The wings.

 

The days of centers like a Phil Esposito planting himself in front and taking a beating are over. The crease was extended since those days, which has played a major role in making it more difficult to screen keepers. It's why "traffic" in front has replaced the Espo technique, and it's why assists have moved from wings and D to centers who work down low to feed the puck to those guys. The only thing looking at NHL history will confirm is how much the game has evolved, and that its evolution shows no signs of reversing.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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11 minutes ago, SuckaPunchd said:

I also think it's a gamble in and of itself to expect anything from our developing players in the system.

But you didn't at the beginning of your prior paragraph, citing Gauthier, Roy and Foegele. Just sayin'.

 

I'd prefer Justin over Iggy for sure. We do need veteran leadership that has been there. But you could do a lot worse (while spending a bunch more, for a crazy term) than Iggy, a longtime C who is still hungry to win.  

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10 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

No it isn't. Francis has said all along that Aho projects to that. And here's BP's take.

 

If Aho is that guy, that would work. But then he would be that guy. So we would have a legit 1C rather than just a functional guy with good wingers. As to the question of Francis wanting a 1C, from that article:

 

I think every team's looking for that guy, especially if he's a centerman,” Francis said while meeting the media following the trade deadline. “I think that's a piece that a lot of teams — you look at what it's done for the Oilers and the Leafs, being able to get [Connor] McDavid and [Auston] Matthews in those positions the last couple years. So I think everybody's looking for those kind of high-end guys, particularly centers, to drive your team.”

 

The article also points out that the Canes have put the "possible future center" tag on several guys from Skinner to Lindholm, and then made them permanent wingers, so tagging Aho does not mean he'll be that.

 

The upside is that there are small mobile 1C's, the article lists Giroux, as a good example, and Duchene himself. And Aho sure has the hockey IQ and seemingly the ability for it. I'm good if Aho is that guy. If he can be that, and we add wingers, that could work.

Edited by remkin

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17 minutes ago, SuckaPunchd said:

Anyways, I'm just excited to see who we do get. And what all goes down. 

Total agreement here. Like OBX said, June and July should be a great ride.

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6 minutes ago, remkin said:

So we would have a legit 1C rather than just a functional guy with good wingers.

No, we'd have a C who scores, another C in Jordan who (comparatively) does not, and two more who do whatever BP asks of them. Give 'em whatever numerical status you want, my point is just that it's a lot less important in today's NHL than at any time in the leagues history.

 

I've said it all along: In a league where goals are scarce, scoring is all I care about. I don't care if the goals come from Darling. As long as they come.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Yeah I know. My theory is we throw them into the AHL next season, or at least a few, and at least one will emerge ready that same season. I think the team needs to invest in an already developed and proven center if they want center. We can't also bank on guys who are center now in their careers, but might not be able to play center in the NHL (see Skinner, Lindholm). I just hope, like you, we manage to add to the NHL roster without losing much if anything from our NHL roster. And without ruining our payroll. The addition of Darling also adds intrigue on who will be heading out. My guess, as unpopular as it is, is Ward is moving on. We could make a deal with Vegas to take one of those goalies, in a way protecting Stempniak. It's going to be exciting. 

 

Also, for the record, I would be ecstatic to see Kovalchuk on our team. Instant 30 goals. Instantly improved PP. I never blamed him for retiring out of that contract. I blame the Devils franchise for making that ridiculous contract.

 

 

Edited by SuckaPunchd

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