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LakeLivin

The Great #1 Goalie Thread

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4 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

 So you guys choose to ignore facts.  I base my statement on the previous 2 goalies we have acquired.   I hope 3rd time is a charm but it is a roll of the dice.  Let's try not to be sensitive sallys.

 

You're right, it is somewhat of a roll of the dice, and yes, our last two rolls haven't worked out (Dobby and Lack).  But decisions have to be made.  If I missed a surefire answer to our goaltending dilemma please fill me in.  It's really easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize anything that goes wrong. But it's kind of gutless, too.  If you're critical of this move please let us know what you think RF should have done. 

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19 minutes ago, super_dave_1 said:

Having a legit goalie may also make the Canes appear as a better landing spot when negotiating with free agents.  It's one variable taken out of the equation.

Bingo! It's more than just getting players that can puck really good. Other aspects like making Raleigh a desirable location for FAs and rookies has unspeakable value among other intangibles.

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There is always a risk especially with goalies. I can understand those of you who may be concerned about a Goalie who is yet to be a proven No.1 starter. You could also say the same about any prospect coming up from the minors no matter how great their results or numbers may be. SD at least has NHL experience and has shown the ability. Yeah he was a No2 behind Crawford but so would most NHL goalies today. Who else would you of wanted Ronnie to pursue? MAF at age 32 and a current 5.75 million contract with Wardesque numbers? Ben Bishop at age 30 and a current 5,9500.00 dollar contract who is injury prone and played 39 games last year? I don't consider Darling and Lack to be in the same league when it comes to talent. Darling can speak English, doesn't eat Taco's as a primary food source ,isn't a head case and has talent that Lack will never achieve. I'm still convinced RF acquired the best goalie possible who fits the organization the best and fits into the RF mold of rebuild. Could he end up being a bust? Anything is possible but I like the move. Can't wait for the additional pieces to fall into place,

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49 minutes ago, LakeLivin said:

 

You're right, it is somewhat of a roll of the dice, and yes, our last two rolls haven't worked out (Dobby and Lack).  But decisions have to be made.  If I missed a surefire answer to our goaltending dilemma please fill me in.  It's really easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize anything that goes wrong. But it's kind of gutless, too.  If you're critical of this move please let us know what you think RF should have done. 

For the record I think this is the best we could get at that price.  SD asked me what I thought of the contractand I states my opinion and concerns.   I hope he does well and is a beast in net.

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1 hour ago, LakeLivin said:

 

You're right, it is somewhat of a roll of the dice, and yes, our last two rolls haven't worked out (Dobby and Lack).  But decisions have to be made.  If I missed a surefire answer to our goaltending dilemma please fill me in.  It's really easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize anything that goes wrong. But it's kind of gutless, too.  If you're critical of this move please let us know what you think RF should have done. 

 

13 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

For the record I think this is the best we could get at that price.  SD asked me what I thought of the contractand I states my opinion and concerns.   I hope he does well and is a beast in net.

 

Thank you for going on record as approving the move at the time it was made.  Your concerns are noted, and shared by others (myself included).  But so far it seems unanimous that this was probably the best move RF could make.

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My first reaction was surprise, not at signing Darling but at signing him so soon. Nobody can foresee the future but RF addressed a need, took a gamble to obtain the rights and sealed the deal. I think he gets an A+ for this.

 

Now the goalie debate shifts to Ward and Lack. Do we trade one of them before the expansion draft. If we do and get a third round pick back we have signed and replaced a goalie and without shedding a pick.

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Xer, do yoou REALLY think we could get a third for EITHER of those guys?  Cam, maybe...but I'd be exstatic if we got anything higher than a 4th for Eddie.  That being said, I think neither moves before the draft...but it's ultimately Eddie moving.

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4 minutes ago, AWACSooner said:

Xer, do yoou REALLY think we could get a third for EITHER of those guys?  Cam, maybe...but I'd be exstatic if we got anything higher than a 4th for Eddie.  That being said, I think neither moves before the draft...but it's ultimately Eddie moving.

 

You would get something for them. I think there might be teams willing to take a chance on Lack.

 

The truth is it is already a winning move. We upgraded the crease for a third. It doesn't get better than that. Of course Darling still has to prove he is a starter but he sure looks like he is ready.

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Quote

 

2 minutes ago

Scott Darling said he was "super excited" about trade to Canes, contracts talks went well and it was "no-brainer" to sign.

 

 

Quote

 

25 minutes ago

Scott Darling: "I was super excited when the trade happened. ... Once we worked out the contract part, it was a no-brainer."

Darling on grabbing a starting role: "I'm confident because I'm excited about it."

Darling said he talked to Nordstrom, Bickell after the trade. They had good things to say. Darling said that put his mind at ease.

 

 

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2 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

 So you guys choose to ignore facts.  I base my statement on the previous 2 goalies we have acquired.   I hope 3rd time is a charm but it is a roll of the dice.  Let's try not to be sensitive sallys.  I've heard this all before with a guy named Lack.  I don't think there was a better option.  I would like RF to spend money but on proven players.

It's ok to take a wait and see approach on a guy who hasn't been #1 as starter.  I'm thrilled, but hopeful (not sure).  It means we're not committed to the Ward/Lack combo.

 

However, I'm trying to understand your view BD.  I get the part about you preferring less money.  I'm having difficulty aligning "I don't think there was a better option" with spending on "proven players."  If there is not a better option (I presume you mean in goal), then you're in favor of Darling, right?  

 

You don't mean goalie as one of those "proven players" but instead mean use the money on a skater, correct?  If so, I don't think the money and term are too much to worry about, unless we're all disappointed by Darling.

Edited by Manwolf

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2 hours ago, super_dave_1 said:

Having a legit goalie may also make the Canes appear as a better landing spot when negotiating with free agents.  It's one variable taken out of the equation.

I get the point, but unlike some, I've just never seen Raleigh as a deterrent in itself, except maybe to prima donnas who want the biggest possible stage in order to stoke their own egos. Those types were never gonna fit with BP's ethic anyway.

 

Again, I get the fears (or maybe unfounded suppositions is a better term) which might seem to make concerns over this or that player coming here legit: non-traditional market, apparently pensive ownership in recent years, etc. But every player and agent paying attention knows there's now a top-100 all-time player at the helm, a coach who is widely viewed as one of the best hockey minds of his generation, an abundance of young talent--and, a huge point for anybody from the Northern Tier--incredibly friendly weather and recreational opportunities. And three hours west or east (respectively), lie the mountains and some of the world's best beaches.  

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37 minutes ago, OBXer said:

Ron Francis said no decision to be made on Ward, Lack until after expansion draft. On goaltending: "We will explore all possibilities.

This confirms my supposition: The org has no preference. Vegas can take either or neither and we'll (1) move forward with the other as the presumptive backup--or (2) trade one (or both) if an even-better option is there.

 

The way Ronnie has set the table so that his options expand with every move he makes - versus shriveling up, as they did under JR - is really remarkable.

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2 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I get the point, but unlike some, I've just never seen Raleigh as a deterrent in itself, except maybe to prima donnas who want the biggest possible stage in order to stoke their own egos. Those types were never gonna fit with BP's ethic anyway.

 

Again, I get the fears (or maybe unfounded suppositions is a better term) which might seem to make concerns over this or that player coming here legit: non-traditional market, apparently pensive ownership in recent years, etc. But every player and agent paying attention knows there's now a top-100 all-time player at the helm, a coach who is widely viewed as one of the best hockey minds of his generation, an abundance of young talent--and, a huge point for anybody from the Northern Tier--incredibly friendly weather and recreational opportunities. And three hours west or east (respectively), lie the mountains and some of the world's best beaches.  

top, I get what you're saying here, but as I opined some time back, the geography is certainly not the deterrent, or even the absence of "bright lights and fanfare". The possible hang-up may be a perception of this venue as a place where a player comes "to see his career die", Not even any playoffs for the past 8 yrs certainly does not give any potential player the warm and fuzzy. Thus, with the, shall we say "brilliant" positioning that RF has accomplished, now coupled with this decisive move of goalie acquisition, RF is demonstrating, IMHO, to any potential trade candidate, that we are committed to excellence and playoff appearances. Further, despite his or his coach's perceived status, or even the blossoming strength of his team, I think his determined, albeit thoroughly vetted spending should bode well for any player ready for a change of venue.

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I am extremely pleased by this move.

 

I am on record for years as a proponent of the sumo goalie, and while it is a joke, big guys take up more net.  He is a sumo with skills.

 

Also very happy that this simplifies Ronnie's to do list.  Basically now that this move was made, his decision tree shrinks in complexity vis a vis free agency moves, salary concerns, etc.  This block is in place, less to focus on now.

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2 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I get the point, but unlike some, I've just never seen Raleigh as a deterrent in itself, except maybe to prima donnas who want the biggest possible stage in order to stoke their own egos. Those types were never gonna fit with BP's ethic anyway.

 

Again, I get the fears (or maybe unfounded suppositions is a better term) which might seem to make concerns over this or that player coming here legit: non-traditional market, apparently pensive ownership in recent years, etc. But every player and agent paying attention knows there's now a top-100 all-time player at the helm, a coach who is widely viewed as one of the best hockey minds of his generation, an abundance of young talent--and, a huge point for anybody from the Northern Tier--incredibly friendly weather and recreational opportunities. And three hours west or east (respectively), lie the mountains and some of the world's best beaches.  

 

My issue wasn't that Raleigh was a bad location, just that the team looks a lot more solid (on paper at least) with the goalie situation shored up.  When you are trying to convince a guy to come, the team outlook is better.  

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I was at the Hawks game against us in December and could not believe the size of him in person. He does fill up the net. We did beat them as Darling gave up three against us but only gave up 1 against us on 40 shots in Chicago. He gave up 4 goals against our 68 shots.https://www.nhl.com/blackhawks/video/fans-choice-awards-unsung-hero/t-277437096/c-51825703

 

 

Edited by slapshot02

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3 hours ago, Manwolf said:

It's ok to take a wait and see approach on a guy who hasn't been #1 as starter.  I'm thrilled, but hopeful (not sure).  It means we're not committed to the Ward/Lack combo.

 

However, I'm trying to understand your view BD.  I get the part about you preferring less money.  I'm having difficulty aligning "I don't think there was a better option" with spending on "proven players."  If there is not a better option (I presume you mean in goal), then you're in favor of Darling, right?  

 

You don't mean goalie as one of those "proven players" but instead mean use the money on a skater, correct?  If so, I don't think the money and term are too much to worry about, unless we're all disappointed by Darling.

 

I'm of the opinion that your best player should be your goalie.   Time and time again, if you have a game changing goalie you make the playoffs.  I think it was unrealistic to presume we would grab Bishop so this is the next best thing we could do.  As stated,  I'm nervous about our track record with goalies and also giving 4M to a guy who has yet to start a full NHL season.  I would have been much more comfortable offering 6M or even 7 for a guy like Bishop because he has proven he can start and under the assumption he was healthy.  I would rather the franchise fork out money for a proven starter than a potential starter.  But the cards have fallen and this is our game plan going forward. 

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8 hours ago, slapshot02 said:

There is always a risk especially with goalies. I can understand those of you who may be concerned about a Goalie who is yet to be a proven No.1 starter. You could also say the same about any prospect coming up from the minors no matter how great their results or numbers may be. SD at least has NHL experience and has shown the ability. Yeah he was a No2 behind Crawford but so would most NHL goalies today. Who else would you of wanted Ronnie to pursue? MAF at age 32 and a current 5.75 million contract with Wardesque numbers? Ben Bishop at age 30 and a current 5,9500.00 dollar contract who is injury prone and played 39 games last year? I don't consider Darling and Lack to be in the same league when it comes to talent. Darling can speak English, doesn't eat Taco's as a primary food source ,isn't a head case and has talent that Lack will never achieve. I'm still convinced RF acquired the best goalie possible who fits the organization the best and fits into the RF mold of rebuild. Could he end up being a bust? Anything is possible but I like the move. Can't wait for the additional pieces to fall into place,

 

I think this covers my thoughts on Darling as the best option. Namely, there are only so many actual options out there. Montreal is not sending us Carey Price for a 4th rounder while taking half of his salary back. There are only so many ways to get this done.

 

1. Bring up a yute. No one is even close to ready. NEXT!!

2. Sign a "proven" UFA. The few that are there (ie Bishop, Fleury) will be vied for by other teams, and cost mega bucks. And even this is a risk. This is the risk of the big, long contract to the next guy whose game slips. This is a guy making $6 million/year for 5 years who is already looking at the wrong side of 30. BTW: Ben Bishop had a save % last year of .910 and MAF .909. (yes Fleury is having a nice playoff run, but is also 32).

3. Trade straight up for a proven goaltender. But a top 15 proven #1, well under 30, is usually not available, and would cost a big piece in return.

 

All options, including doing nothing, carry risk. There is no risk free option. So when it comes to this, you make your best guess based on who you are getting and the price. The price? Not just a third round pick, by far our latest, basically almost 4th round pick, still leaving us with two better third round picks.

 

The guy? While Darling does not have 667 starts like MAF, he does have 64 starts, and in his 27 starts last year, he was, for goalies with at least 25 starts, #5 (tie). Yes, he was playing for the Blackhawks, but his record was 18-5-5. His winning % was .642 counting all losses as losses, while Corey Crawford's was .592 on the same team, and with .918 vs Darling's .923.

 

Clearly Chicago favored Crawford, but there are a lot of reasons that go into that, and Darling could very well be the better goalie from this point on.

 

Canes Country did a nice write up about the approach of converting another team's proven back up into your #1. (It often works, Lack aside). I think this is the lowest risk, highest return option likely out there, and Francis pulled this off while everyone else was sleeping, and at almost no cost.

 

This was masterful.

Edited by remkin
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MAF is historically not much better than Ward (statistically).  Bishop might be on the down slope, and was going to be expensive.  Other than those 2, what option looked better than Briscoe?

Edited by super_dave_1

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On Raleigh for UFA.

 

This move HAS to make us look better. Shows a willingness to spend, and signals that GMRF is no longer tilling the soil and planting seeds. He is on to adding the pieces for a very good team. UFA's are not stupid. They can see the stat that we had a good defense but terrible goaltending and still made a run, and have now solidly upgraded goalie. They can see this is a young, up and coming team with lots of good everywhere else on the ice, who got close and even as an existing group should just be better next year and beyond.

 

We ARE at some disadvantage if we are honest. The lack of big name UFA's over the years is pretty strong evidence of that. We are not original 6. We are not a major market. We haven't been in the playoffs if forever, we barely half fill our building. The fact that a lot of guys wan those things, does not make them Primadonnas. We need to get someone who is willing to consider offsetting factors:

 

Young, up and coming team. Smart management (coach and GM). Market that will grow and fill the building with winning, and the guy that came here and made it happen will be a hero. Team that has long term good reputation as treating players fairly and respectfully. Ron Francis. Bill Peters. Media that will treat you with kit gloves comparably. Great place to raise a family. Beautiful city. etc.

 

Darling was a very good get, but his options were more limited. Maybe Dallas or Calgary, but not a huge list. Oshie would be an order of magnitude bigger in terms of landing the big fish in Raleigh.

 

I'm not sure where the link between us and Oshie came from, and it's still a long shot for sure, but landing him would instantly put us on the map. Yes, a guy can dream. That's why we buy lottery tickets. So indulge me. If we sign Oshie and Darling and only give up a near 4th round pick? Holy cow. Francis would be so rich in picks and prospects, that another big move would almost be required to off load some of that. Maybe not a massive splash like a Duchene, but another really nice medium move up front.

 

Oshie plus Darling and this team should equal playoffs, and by a good margin. But doing that with all of our pick/prospect powder still dry to allow yet another upgrade? Wow.

Edited by remkin
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6 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

I'm of the opinion that your best player should be your goalie.

Sure you are. Right up until you're of the opinion it should be your 1C. Er, your 1RHD. Uh, the stick boy...

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3 hours ago, remkin said:

Maybe not a massive splash like a Duchene, but another really nice medium move up front.

 

Edited because I realized that I was going way off topic with my reply. :P 

Edited by Citizen_Quinn

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RD was the right move. Status quo was not an option. Bishop is going to want too much money and term. And he's had some injury issues too. MAF has been great in playoffs, but has been ordinary or less the last couple of seasons, is 32 years old, is owed $5.75 million per year for 2 years. Darling looked like as good or better of an option than any other goalie likely to be available. Cam Talbot came from a similar situation to Edmonton and has been successful. Darling's deal is almost identical to Talbot's. Acknowledging that every player acquisition comes with risk, I think Darling was the best available option this year. RF is to be commended for taking quick and decisive action to wrap this up. We can move forward with cautious optimism, and begin addressing other needs. Oshie would be a great addition, but somehow I think we are a long shot for his services, and would not be surprised if Ronnie makes another earlier move via trade. 

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