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rocheccw

Free Agency Frenzy or Fizzle

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1 hour ago, bluedevil58 said:

Sold.   Who here is comfortable with Ryan as our 3C?  I'm not

 

I understand, but I'll put it back on you to prove to me Ryan didn't produce last year as a 3C. My guess is you will have nothing, as usual. Peters has already put Skinner back with Ryan and Stemp just a few days ago.  Kruger changes the dynamics as well.

 

So at this point, yeah, I'd rather have somebody better than Ryan, but it's not like the player embarrassed himself or the team last season.  Peters seems to love the guy.  And a long time poster here pretty much called it a few months ago. You know who you are.

 

Way too early to start bemoaning slots in the lineup in July.

 

I like the progress.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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I second the point that Florida is a team in our exact position - close but trying to climb into the playoffs from the outside. And despite his numbers, which admittedly look pretty good, they made no effort to re-sign Jagr. They must know something more than what shows up on a stat sheet.

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For each of the last 5 years JVR has scored between .67 ppg and .76 ppg, with about half of those points being goals, which works out to be in the high 20s goals for a full season.  That seems to be exactly what the Canes need and I'd love to have him. 

 

Having said that, why would Toronto trade him now unless they got a very nice return? I know he's a UFA after the season and the Leafs may not have room for him in their future.  But given how competitive the East is going to be, wouldn't it have to be pretty close to a "full value" package in return (i.e., not discounted for the fact that he's a 1 year rental), especially if it's comprised of picks and prospects?  Because they could still always move him at the TD.  Or, extend him and then trade him after the season is over. Or maybe even decide that the way to maximize value would be to keep him around for a playoff run, even at the risk of losing him with no return.  Think of it this way; whatever they get for JVR now, they might end up spending a good portion on as buyers at the TD, and that without having the services of whoever they rent for the first 2/3 of the year. 

 

Hey, if we can swing it for a reasonable futures package, I like it.  JVR does have a modified NTC (10 teams he can exclude), but I've got to believe that the addition of TVR reduces the chances that the Canes would be one of the 10. :P

Edited by LakeLivin

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10 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

Peters has already put Skinner back with Ryan and Stemp just a few days ago.

This. Some apparently still don't get it: The 1/2/3 lines as high-to-low designations of scoring potential are out the window in BP's system. That's going to be increasingly true across the NHL, thanks to (1) the cap era, and (2) the way the game itself has changed.

 

Big goalies with sound butterfly technique and stifling, big D is the norm, and that combination is hard to score on. If your elite scorers are on just one or two lines, you're not going to score often enough to win hockey games. The answer: Speed and skill up and down the lineup. You can't have that over the long term if you're spending 13 million a year on one guy (as Edmonton will find out). Offense must be unrelenting to wear down defenses and force keepers to be focused for the entire 60 minutes. Think about it: How often on these boards have we complained about Cam's or Smurf's "one lapse" costing us games? In days gone by, teams recovered from momentary lapses as often as not. In today's NHL, they cost you.  

 

On every one of these fronts - in the crease, on D, and on offense - this team is being built for today's game. We have great shooters and playmakers on lines 1 through 3, and centers who play at both ends of the ice. Say what you will about Derek Ryan and his path to the NHL, but he's our most versatile forward--and it's not even close. Who else has moved from C to wing and back so seamlessly? He may be 30, but he (and Aho) picked up the NHL game last year more quickly than any rookie forwards this team has seen since Jeff Skinner. That speaks volumes about coaching and personal work ethic--and about the sort of guys we're looking for.

 

By the end of this season, I think people might just be amazed that we got Ryan so cheap. 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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11 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

 

Okay, so where does Jagr play in our lineup (as I see it right now) for a slow guy that can bring all those points with him.

 

TT - Staal - Williams

Aho - Rask - Lindholm

Skinner - Ryan - Stempniak

Nordstram - Kruger - Joordish

McGiinn

 

 

Probably have to put TT back in the middle, and Jagr on his line. That would push Ryan to the 4th line our out. I get the fact that we'd have too many bodies though.

 

I wonder if Jagr could toggle between third and even 4th line, especially if he got a lot of PP time.

 

The fact that Francis hasn't talked to him and signed Joordish, Kruger and re-signed Ryan and McGinn is a pretty good sign he doesn't actually plan to do it.

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Peters wants to move the puck through the neutral zone with speed and enter the O zone with attacking D men.  Jagr just doesn't fit here.  Again, I love the guy, but square peg, round hole.  This team is now constructed to roll 4 lines the whole game, every night.  Peters can't afford to hide a guy.

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2 hours ago, super_dave_1 said:

Peters wants to move the puck through the neutral zone with speed and enter the O zone with attacking D men.  Jagr just doesn't fit here.  Again, I love the guy, but square peg, round hole.  This team is now constructed to roll 4 lines the whole game, every night.  Peters can't afford to hide a guy.

 

Another words, we don't need McJesus (or in Jagr's case, JaMoses) when we have a cast of thousands of capable apostles.

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This squad kind of reminds me of the 2006 Canes team before the season started.  Lots of under the radar point scorers.  Staal, Brindy, Williams, Cullen, Cole, Whitney, Stillman.  While the 2006 team had a stronger top 9.  This team has a slightly weaker top 9 with much stronger blue line.  Going to be interesting to see how this pans out. 

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Speed has definitely picked up in the league over the past  several years but...some are making it sound like Jagr is playing with an anchor on his back and that just isn't the case. Clearly he is still quick enough to score goals as he has done his entire career. If Jagr were here, who would be against that? This team is desperate to win now and he would help with that pressing issue. While continuing to add 15+ goals a year and assists he could teach the peach fuzz crowd on our team an awful lot about all things hockey. Same thing with Scottie Hartnell. Not the fastest but has been a contributor his entire career. Jagr will be playing somewhere this year and will once again be a contributor on the scoreboard and in the dressing room.

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Jagr has remained effective because he changed his game over the years as he has slowed down.  He would be a much better fit on a team that played a slower, more methodical game.  I've been watching the guy play hockey forever.  His game is way different than it was in his youth.

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I still think Jagr could provide a lot both on and off the ice and i still wouldn't shed a tear if he came here, but he's definitely not 'the answer' - especially with the limited amount of space this team has for forwards at this point.  In his younger years, of course you'd make room for him, but at this point in his career he really isn't a fit.

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8 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

This. Some apparently still don't get it: The 1/2/3 lines as high-to-low designations of scoring potential are out the window in BP's system. That's going to be increasingly true across the NHL, thanks to (1) the cap era, and (2) the way the game itself has changed.

 

Big goalies with sound butterfly technique and stifling, big D is the norm, and that combination is hard to score on. If your elite scorers are on just one or two lines, you're not going to score often enough to win hockey games. The answer: Speed and skill up and down the lineup. You can't have that over the long term if you're spending 13 million a year on one guy (as Edmonton will find out). Offense must be unrelenting to wear down defenses and force keepers to be focused for the entire 60 minutes. Think about it: How often on these boards have we complained about Cam's or Smurf's "one lapse" costing us games? In days gone by, teams recovered from momentary lapses as often as not. In today's NHL, they cost you.  

 

On every one of these fronts - in the crease, on D, and on offense - this team is being built for today's game. We have great shooters and playmakers on lines 1 through 3, and centers who play at both ends of the ice. Say what you will about Derek Ryan and his path to the NHL, but he's our most versatile forward--and it's not even close. Who else has moved from C to wing and back so seamlessly? He may be 30, but he (and Aho) picked up the NHL game last year more quickly than any rookie forwards this team has seen since Jeff Skinner. That speaks volumes about coaching and personal work ethic--and about the sort of guys we're looking for.

 

By the end of this season, I think people might just be amazed that we got Ryan so cheap. 

top, glad to be back in the friendly confines of this board, where you primarily, and others will listen to a thought without bristling when it doesn't agree with theirs!! got into a disagreement on another board when several were chastising Peters' "Blend-O-Matic" approach to his line combinations. Admittedly, while it has been going on for the past couple of years, I've at times been as dogmatic in my criticism as anyone, until the light starts to dawn, that unlike the previous coach, KM, who genuinely appeared lost and basically grasping at straws to get something/anything to work, I opined that Coach Peters likely had a genius plan(the word GENIUS when applied to him ruffled a few feathers), which incorporated the on the outside appearance of wholesale switching of player combinations into its methodology. Things took off when the use of the word related to me "common sense" was applied in an underhanded insult.

 

Needless to say, I would further make the following observations:  RF and BP inherited a miserable situation, replete with No Star, TNTC decent 3rd and 4th liners, a questionable Defense, and borderline poor goal tending. Analyzing this situation, the "small market" challenges in a college basketball/ NASCAR rich setting, a frugal owner who periodically opens his purse strings but was rife to be closer in expenditures to Cap Floor than Cap limit and no miraculous luck comparable to Edmonton or a few other teams to bring in true 1st liners, and what does one do?

 

Well, recalling what we were told when RF, not one to be easily impressed I'd suggest, seemed(to my ears as a disclaimer), truly floored by the presentation he heard at the interview with BP, I'd extrapolated from that appearance that BP is OCD and leaves very little unaddressed. Thus I'd suggest that this coach took the bunch of lemons and made lemonade so to speak, in so much as "if you can't beat em, join em". How does one do that? Pardon what a few on the other board thought borderline psychotic, but my thought is make every line "dangerous" so that the D cannot shut down 1 or 2, and further confuse by familiarizing all players with different line mates, so as not to have staid line mates. Unconventional, unquestionably, and flies in the face of how most coaches have constructed their lines since the inception of the NHL. Also I am not sure these thoughts are not my feeble attempt to just justifying the coach, but it appears, at least to me, that this could be an approach to not being tied to a potential #1 or #2 pick which may never happen, or having to trade away valuable assets?

 

At any rate, my apologies to rem for supplanting his treatices, and thanks for reading.   

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21 hours ago, slapshot02 said:

BP almost had a nervous breakdown the last time he had to deal with a slow forward. Александр Валерьевич Сёмин,

 

 

Александр Валериевич Семин сосет шарики осла

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1 hour ago, KJUNKANE said:

Thus I'd suggest that this coach took the bunch of lemons and made lemonade so to speak, in so much as "if you can't beat em, join em". How does one do that? Pardon what a few on the other board thought borderline psychotic, but my thought is make every line "dangerous" so that the D cannot shut down 1 or 2, and further confuse by familiarizing all players with different line mates, so as not to have staid line mates.

I agree with every word, and will add that by trying unending combos (especially those first two years) BP essentially "proved" to RF that certain guys were never going to fit, no matter who they were with.

 

In the end the cream rises, and the lemons become obvious. Look around at who is left from those first couple of years: The ones who leave it all out there and do what they're told. That, IMO, is the major reason Cam's still here and Eric isn't. Eric stated believing his own PR and thinking he was above hard work. Cam never did. It's also why Justin is back.

 

The lemons are gone--and at long last, we've got people working the front door dedicated to keeping them out.

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1 hour ago, sleekfeeder said:

Good article.

 

https://www.fanragsports.com/nhl/avalanche/finding-real-trade-value-matt-duchene/

 

I have to admit, I'm still droolin' over the fact that he's still out there if Joe and Ron could find some middle ground. I know, I know, probably not happening, but just saying......

One can dream.

Thanks for posting sleek.

 

I love articles that try to do what this one does: use actual trades of the past to decide the rough "real" value of a guy like Duchene. Given that Sakic is holding out, is he likely to win this game, or have to lower his bar?

 

Reading that article, the answer seems to be yes. In other words, could go either way.

 

The one thing I get out of that article is that it is not uncommon to trade multiple draft picks, and prospects and that it matters a lot how high up those draft picks end up being, and how good the prospects are. In the case where Boston got Toronto's first rounder for Kessel, it ended up being the number 2 overall pick, and Tyler Seguin. (The fact that Boston squandered Seguin later, does not make it a bad deal). But other deals with packages of picks and prospects ended up being nothing burgers, as the picks and prospects failed to pan out.

 

Why care? Because IF we were to suddenly find ourselves back in the hunt for Duchene, it would have to be a picks and prospects package. Francis has stated clearly he's not moving Hanifin, and Faulk's skill set is too mission critical right now, and Slavin/Pesce are not going anywhere, at least not for a guy that can walk in 2 years. I personally would be open to a prospects/picks deal. I think it is possible that if the few Duchene suitors out there at this moment withdraw, Joe might consider it.

 

Personally I think a Fleury plus our next first rounder would be a fair deal. Fleury is really a very high prospect with top 4 written all over him. And a first rounder for a rebuiliding team should be desired. Maybe we have to throw in another pick or B prospect. From my point of view, we are deep with prospects on both sides of the ice, and our next pick is likely to be mid round or lower, the type that often don't pan out.

 

This may seem like a lot to give up, but a rejuvenated Duchene in our line up would work wonders. As mentioned a bunch of times, we immediately become seriously deep down the middle, and we are already deep on all wings in the top 9 (even arguably top 12). This guy creates chances, and unlike, oh, say Jagr, he is fast.

 

Certainly Francis' recent statement that he is good and doesn't see more moves at the moment correlates with us no longer being in the Duchene rumor mill, and casts a pall over the likelihood at the moment. But if things change and Duchene ends up here for picks and prospects, this team would move from just over cut line, to solid playoff team instantly and for at least the next 2 years, and still have a deep system for the future.

 

I am confident Francis knows this, but think Sakic wants Hanifin or one of our other top 4, and that deal does not work for Francis. Francis has made some offer for Duchene. I doubt it was Murphy, PDG and a 6th rounder. He had to offer something for the rumor mill to keep us in there so long. Joe wants defense. Has to be a D prospect that has serious upside. We have two: Bean and Fleury. Bean is further from NHL ready, and Fleury was a higher pick. It's all speculation, but he's the logical offer, and Sakic hasn't been interested. That could change though.

Edited by remkin

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3 hours ago, remkin said:

Joe wants defense. Has to be a D prospect that has serious upside.

Is this conjecture from the article? b/c unless it is saying something has changed, Joe has never said he wants a D prospect. He wants a top-four roster D man, plus.

 

I agree with your premise that he should listen to what the market is telling him: Joe, you're not gonna get that. But just wanted to clarify that AFAIK, nothing has changed re Joe's ask.

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Sakic was more in a position to get those pieces a while back.  The music is slowing down and the chairs are filling up.  He has shopped Duchene for so long that he almost has to move him in order to prevent a situation.  Some possible suitors have now made other moves and are probably much less interested now than they were in the past.  

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30 minutes ago, super_dave_1 said:

Sakic was more in a position to get those pieces a while back.  The music is slowing down and the chairs are filling up.  He has shopped Duchene for so long that he almost has to move him in order to prevent a situation.  Some possible suitors have now made other moves and are probably much less interested now than they were in the past.  

I think the suitors are all the same. The willingness to let a top 4 defender go is a consensual no across the suitors.  Unless Winnipeg jumps in, rumored to want a forward, I believe we will remain in a deadlock.  I can't think of a team that has a young top 4 Dman that they need to move for prospects to swing a three team deal.  LV might be the only one but they seem keen on keeping Schmidt and Theodore. Overpay maybe change their mind?  IDK.  

Canes

Duchene

 

Col

Schmidt

Karlsson

 

LV

McKeown

Koukannen

Nordstrom/Ryan 

 

exchange some picks between the teams to get it done. Spit balling here.

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2 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Is this conjecture from the article? b/c unless it is saying something has changed, Joe has never said he wants a D prospect. He wants a top-four roster D man, plus.

 

I agree with your premise that he should listen to what the market is telling him: Joe, you're not gonna get that. But just wanted to clarify that AFAIK, nothing has changed re Joe's ask.

 

No the conjecture is mine. The official rumor that Sakic has seemingly sanctioned has always been that he wants a top 4 D, Francis also implied this at the Q&A at the carnival.

 

My conjecture is that Fleury is what Francis has offered. My thinking is that if Francis had offered any of our top 4 D, Duchene would be here. But he had to offer something besides 5th round picks, so, if Sakic wants D, but can't have our top 4, then Fleury would be the closest thing we could offer that would make any sense (or Bean). But this is pure guesswork on my part.

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10 hours ago, remkin said:

No the conjecture is mine. The official rumor that Sakic has seemingly sanctioned has always been that he wants a top 4 D, Francis also implied this at the Q&A at the carnival.

My conjecture is that Fleury is what Francis has offered. My thinking is that if Francis had offered any of our top 4 D, Duchene would be here. But he had to offer something besides 5th round picks, so, if Sakic wants D, but can't have our top 4, then Fleury would be the closest thing we could offer that would make any sense (or Bean). But this is pure guesswork on my part.

Gotcha, thanks. Thing is, he's reportedly had offers of top-4 D from others (Ryan Murray from the Jackets, for example--200 games and a career 20:00+ TOI) and a deal is still not done. So the bottom line here in July 2017 (for me) is the same as it was in November, 2016: Joe is delusional.

 

It's therefore time to move on and get the people we need on the assumption that none of them will be coming from Denver--which I believe is the exact conclusion Ronnie reached prior to the ExDraft, and his moves over the past two weeks seem to confirm it.

 

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I agree it's a long shot, probably not happening, and we should all stop analyzing the trade details to death and move on. If it's not then, where do these goals, that we apparently are ever so desperate for come from? All I've seen is projections on unproven youth, which to me boils down back to magic beans like we were counting at the end of this last season. 

Look, I'm not discounting anything Ronnie has done up to this point. In my opinion, great job. He's added, intangibles, grit, leadership, goal tending (presumably), and some scoring (again presumably), but there's still that gaping hole in the middle of the ice, in my opinion, that would put us over the top as a competitor. The whole end of season checklist most would say this requirement was second only to goal tending (Maybe). Again, I'm not insinuating Ronnie didn't try, but the team we're about to ice is still missing something even to compete for a wild card. Might as well lump us in with the Phillys, Floridas, and Islanders of the world. A middling team, that with a little luck might make a wild card. BP pretty much said in that infamous last presser the he wants flash, speed, talent. A superstar. Those don't become available every day, and you don't really teach that. Look around the league. Most of those 60+ point guys didn't come up through some system. They were drafted because they already had it. Why not go for it? He gets a B- maybe a C from me. My perspective, it boils down to assets, and the value and timing of those assets through your system. When to keep them, when to use them as leverage. That's why I keep drumming up the conversation about Duchene. Who knows? There might be some Canes magic and we might light it up. Go Canes. Still love them, but gosh.....

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20 hours ago, hag65 said:

 

 

Александр Валериевич Семин сосет шарики осла

Ахахахаххахахахах!

 

A good try! You should just dust up a little bit on your Russian.:D

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