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MinJaBen

Carolina Hurricanes Sold

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While I'm no CPA, I'd be willing to bet that the reported "losses" of the Carolina Hurricanes are limited to the operation of the team, and do not include revenue from other, non-NHL related revenue streams.  Buying HH probably includes receiving the contract to manage the arena.

 

Think about it.  Why would the owners include any income that did not come directly from the NHL squad in any reported team income?  When Bettman declares the next lockout to negotiate additional concessions from the players' union, they don't want to look like they are making money when they can cook the books to make it look otherwise.  HH can show a profit while the Carolina Hurricanes operate in the red.

Edited by super_dave_1

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1 hour ago, wa1010 said:

Yet they still operate in the red most years?

 

While s_d's take makes sense, I wouldn't pretend to know any more about financial details than I already posted, lol.

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Let's make the playoffs before we worry about whose name goes on the Cup! If we win another one, I'm fine with putting PK's name on it. He brought the team here after all. I remember seeing the announcement on the news and thinking it was the craziest idea ever. Twenty years later, notwithstanding recent struggles, I think it was one of the greatest decisions ever. Not sure being a market visionary qualifies with the NHL to get your name on the Cup though.

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I've held out weighing in on this subject as I'm certainly no business man or have the knowledge to debate this issue, but I've had thoughts on one facet that I want to throw out. And I know top has weighed in with the thought that the slow emergence of Karmanos' "gentle" rebuke is likely just good business dealing(do I have that correct top), but their is an additional concern I have here.

 

I suspect that very few on here, and certainly I count myself among you, are experienced in dealing in the rarified atmosphere in which these multimillionaires and billionaires live, thus do not know their quirks(ok, I have no clue who communicates on this board so there might be 1 or 2 of you lurking, so please forgive). My comment though continues with that disclaimer, that hopefully what is transpiring doesn't sully the deal for 1 or several investors we are led to believe are involved, by Karmanos' pestilence, thus putting in jeopardy the entire deal? I mean, sometimes these shall we say "privileged" individuals think they are humorous with remarks, and as we've experienced on more than one occasion, he's not comical worth a darn!! 

 

Next, lets play this scenario out a little further. If the ballyhooed deal falls thru, where does that leave this team? More precisely, what other investor{s) would be interested in being jerked around by JK?

 

Just a little food for thought in this slow period. Come on October.

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Whenever PK opens his mouth, there is a reflex action with his foot flying up there looking for room.  He's just not a good orator.  He doesn't have "the best words".

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27 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

Next, lets play this scenario out a little further. If the ballyhooed deal falls thru, where does that leave this team? More precisely, what other investor{s) would be interested in being jerked around by JK?

 

If this deal falls through. I remind myself that there really isn't an offer as of yet. If the deal doesn't come about I would expect the next investor group would take note and make an offer contingent on certain stipulations upfront. Leaving as little wiggle room as possible. The  question, is there another group out there that is interested in buying the Canes without relocation.  I don't care what PK says or Bettman says at some point keeping the team in Raleigh won't be a consideration. The next question is does PK really want to sell the team.  

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19 minutes ago, OBXer said:

The next question is does PK really want to sell the team.

 

I think no. Look at his statements, he says he wants to sell to position his estate well for his wife and young children but also would like to be involved with the team after the sale. That says to me that he may be selling the team to appease his wife. I think of it like a guy being told by his wife that he has to get rid of his boat or third car. Then the guy goes to Craig's list and puts a $40k price on his $15k toy. If someone comes by and pays it, he'll get out, but the listing is mostly there just for home harmony. Add these most recent statements that seem to be "questionable" and I think we have a guy that likes owning the team and would rather the deal not go through.

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2 hours ago, MinJaBen said:

Add these most recent statements that seem to be "questionable" and I think we have a guy that likes owning the team and would rather the deal not go through.

 

I'm not so sure of this. I do wonder if he would like to be included in the new management group in some way. I think that could pose all kinds of problems for a new owner but maybe not. Lets face it we are all just speculating at this point and both sides are going to get the best deal possible if they can reach an agreement.

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5 hours ago, MinJaBen said:

 

I think no. Look at his statements, he says he wants to sell to position his estate well for his wife and young children but also would like to be involved with the team after the sale. That says to me that he may be selling the team to appease his wife. I think of it like a guy being told by his wife that he has to get rid of his boat or third car. Then the guy goes to Craig's list and puts a $40k price on his $15k toy. If someone comes by and pays it, he'll get out, but the listing is mostly there just for home harmony. Add these most recent statements that seem to be "questionable" and I think we have a guy that likes owning the team and would rather the deal not go through.

 

I think he would rather keep the team but that debt is a problem.

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20 hours ago, hag65 said:

I think he would rather keep the team but that debt is a problem.

I believe he wants to lose the ownership burden (debt) but keep the presidency, or some vesitge thereof. I think PK's game all along has been to put himself out there as the guy with knowledge of hockey in general and the NHL in particular, who could continue in a consulting role. Of course, as he's acknowledged, if he sells the team he sells the team--so his only hope for staying involved is if that is part of the deal. 

 

Shorter: He's right where he was when he confirmed the team was for sale, wanting the best of both worlds: no skin in the game, and control over the operation. Everybody needs a dream, PK... but. Good. Freakin'. Luck.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Top, you are absolutely right.  For PK to sell the team and then want control is ludicrous.  If he doesn't stop his posturing, he's gonna blow this opportunity and be stuck with the team for the indefinite future.  And we'll be stuck with him.  During the past ten years (almost), the team has sucked.  There have been changes in players, coaching, and management, but one constant has been there: ownership.  What does that say?

 

Just as a fresh start often helps a player who's been traded, I think the same goes for ownership.  Look at what happened in Chicago after Wirtz senior was out of the picture.

 

As I said before, this train is getting ready to pull out and nobody knows when or if the next one will arrive.

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2 hours ago, g105 said:

Top, you are absolutely right.  For PK to sell the team and then want control is ludicrous.  If he doesn't stop his posturing, he's gonna blow this opportunity and be stuck with the team for the indefinite future.  And we'll be stuck with him.  During the past ten years (almost), the team has sucked.  There have been changes in players, coaching, and management, but one constant has been there: ownership.  What does that say?

 

Just as a fresh start often helps a player who's been traded, I think the same goes for ownership.  Look at what happened in Chicago after Wirtz senior was out of the picture.

 

As I said before, this train is getting ready to pull out and nobody knows when or if the next one will arrive.

I don't disagree that the new ownership will help, but I think laying the problems at PK's feet is an oversimplification of what really hurt this org: James Rutherford's serially poor assessment of player potential.

 

PK let one year of absolute chemistry kismet convince him, despite years of evidence to the contrary, that JR suddenly knew what he was doing. He let JR convince him Eric and Cam were the future, but more than that: That this market could support those ridiculous contracts. I'm not sure it could have even if the Canes made the playoffs every year.

 

Now there are some who will say that the way RF is building was informed by that huge mistake, and it certainly was. But JR, as the guy with all those years as GM, should have known better. He is far more responsible than the owner for all these years of suck.

 

That being said, we totally need a new owner, with total control over the ops. Because PK has already proved he is no better a judge of GMery than his former GM was of players.  

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"But JR, as the guy with all those years as GM, should have known better. He is far more responsible than the owner for all these years of suck."

 

Top, I don't disagree that a lot of the blame lies with JR.  But if PK claims he wants to involve himself to a new owner as a "the guy with knowledge of hockey in general and the NHL in particular, who could continue in a consulting role", then what does that say about the team's woes and his ability to contribute under his ownership?  And how did he let JR lead him down the garden path?

 

Harry Truman said it; The buck stops here.  Ten years of suck happened under PK's ownership and the buck was sitting on his desk with no one to give it to.

Edited by g105

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2 hours ago, g105 said:

Harry Truman said it; The buck stops here.  Ten years of suck happened under PK's ownership and the buck was sitting on his desk with no one to give it to.

Oh, I agree!! Thus my prior comment: That being said, we totally need a new owner, with total control over the ops. Because PK has already proved he is no better a judge of GMery than his former GM was of players.  

 

I was just venturing a guess, with everything that preceded the above, as to PK's justification for thinking he should be able to keep a hand in things.

 

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PK can't afford the contracts our pipeline of talent will require to keep and if he can't keep those players the franchise will never reach the value he thinks he can get. We'll be a breeding ground for talent for the rest of the league to enjoy.

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, legend-1 said:

PK can't afford the contracts our pipeline of talent will require to keep and if he can't keep those players the franchise will never reach the value he thinks he can get. We'll be a breeding ground for talent for the rest of the league to enjoy.

This is the key thing. If all he truly wants is his name on the Cup again (if/when), the most he should be asking for is emeritus status. Operational control? Seriously, PK...

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5 hours ago, AWACSooner said:

PK is really starting to cause me to be PO...

 

Is it PK causing you angst, or is it the speculation on this board?  

 

From the N&O:

Regardless of the new buyer, Karmanos said he would like to remain involved with the team, at least in an advisory role. He’s in the Hockey Hall of Fame and U.S. Hockey Hall of Fame and believes his expertise as a longtime NHL owner and Stanley Cup winner would be an asset.

 

“I’ve done enough deals, bought enough companies, to understand when you sell your company, you sell your company,” Karmanos said. “If you sell your team, you sell your team. I would just like to hang around the edges, and help them when they need help and still get my name on the Stanley Cups if we win it. But if I’ve sold the team I’ve sold the team.”

_______________________________________________________

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Let's break some of that down:

  • would like to remain involved, at least in an advisory role
  • "I would like to hang around the edges, and help them when they need help"
  • "But if I've sold the team I've sold the team"

Sure he expresses a desire to remain involved, but it sounds to me like he's got a realistic outlook about the limits of any potential involvement if he sells the team. And that he's asking, not making unrealistic demands as part of a sale.   How did we get from "would like to hang around the edges" to "operational control"? 

 

This kind of reminds me of the season before last when speculation about a couple of at worst ambiguous statements Jordan Staal made ended up gaining momentum to the point that some wanted him traded because they thought he didn't want to be here and would be a cancer in the locker room. Funny how speculation can escalate, lol.

 

man-making-mountain-out-molehill-eps-vec

Edited by LakeLivin
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The fact he's managed to alienate the fans over the past few seasons with his ill-timed interviews...then this latest quote regarding the sale...

 

Lots of angst...

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16 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

 

Is it PK causing you angst, or is it the speculation on this board?  

 

From the N&O:

Regardless of the new buyer, Karmanos said he would like to remain involved with the team, at least in an advisory role. He’s in the Hockey Hall of Fame and U.S. Hockey Hall of Fame and believes his expertise as a longtime NHL owner and Stanley Cup winner would be an asset.

 

“I’ve done enough deals, bought enough companies, to understand when you sell your company, you sell your company,” Karmanos said. “If you sell your team, you sell your team. I would just like to hang around the edges, and help them when they need help and still get my name on the Stanley Cups if we win it. But if I’ve sold the team I’ve sold the team.”

_______________________________________________________

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Let's break some of that down:

  • would like to remain involved, at least in an advisory role
  • "I would like to hang around the edges, and help them when they need help"
  • "But if I've sold the team I've sold the team"

Sure he expresses a desire to remain involved, but it sounds to me like he's got a realistic outlook about the limits of any potential involvement if he sells the team. And that he's asking, not making unrealistic demands as part of a sale.   How did we get from "would like to hang around the edges" to "operational control"? 

 

This kind of reminds me of the season before last when speculation about a couple of at worst ambiguous statements Jordan Staal made ended up gaining momentum to the point that some wanted him traded because they thought he didn't want to be here and would be a cancer in the locker room. Funny how speculation can escalate, lol.

 

man-making-mountain-out-molehill-eps-vec

 

90 percent of the discourse here is rooted in speculation. If you're perfectly happy with everything this org hasn't done and has failed to achieve during the past 10 years of PK's ownership - not least of which is PK's own stated goal of finding a new owner - you might want to take note of the forest just beyond that tree. 

 

Meaning, there is plenty in PK's words which, together with those you cherry picked to explain away, could very well put Greenberg or any number of other prospective buyers off. Like the whole "price will go up" nonsense. It's one thing to say that in and of itself. It's something else again to throw in, "BTW, I'd still like to be involved." And then to claim that he's had "about a dozen" others interested over the past couple of years. What might have have scared off 12 (apparently different) would-be buyers?

 

 

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