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Carolina Hurricanes Sold

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On 12/7/2017 at 1:43 PM, slapshot02 said:

He may not have previous sport team ownership but he has already made a major impact in sports and put his stamp on it. The guy simply is all in for a quality product and his investments aren't put up front just to play with toys. As I am a golfer his mark on golf has been swift and the results have shown excellence. The AT&T Bryon Nelson classic has been around for years and was held at TPC Las Colinas. This May it will be held at the Trinity Golf Club where Dundon was one of the Developers.

Dundon was one of the developers in the creation of Trinity Forest Golf Club in southeast Dallas. The course was designed by Ben Crenshaw and Bill Coore, who oversaw the many changes to Pinehurst No. 2 before the 2014 U.S. Open and U.S. Women’s Open.

The PGA Tour selected Trinity Forest to host the AT&T Bryon Nelson, scheduled in May, as the tour shifted the tournament from TPC Las Colinas. Dundon is also a primary investor in the Top Golf national golf-entertainment chain; the closest location is in Charlotte.

 

Okay, so he is involved with something that some call a sport. When did you last play at Trinity Forest? When did an average person who can't pony up a large "initiation fee" and membership to a "Golf Club" last play Trinity Forest? Care to make a guess at the "initiation fee" for Trinity Forest? Hint - it's six figures.

 

To put it another way - what good is a hockey team that sells tickets that only a millionaire can afford? I mean, if Dundon's "investments aren't put up front just to play with toys", that implies he intends to make a profit from them. What do you predict the "initiation fee" for Hurricanes season tickets will be - $10,000? $20,000?

Edited by JonKerfoot
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10 minutes ago, JonKerfoot said:

 

Okay, so he is involved with something that some call a sport. When did you last play at Trinity Forest? When did an average person who can't pony up a large "initiation fee" and membership to a "Golf Club" last play Trinity Forest?

 

To put it another way - what good is a hockey team that sells tickets that only a millionaire can afford? I mean, if Dundon's "investments aren't put up front just to play with toys", that implies he intends to make a profit from them. What do you predict the "initiation fee" for Hurricanes season tickets will be - $10,000? $20,000?

Totally irrelevant to your original post. My fear is, Dundon doesn't have a history of sports-team ownership, so for him it will be just another business and he'll defer to PK's judgement in all things related to sport. His Company Top Golf is affordable for all individuals. So TD shouldn't be looking to make a profit? I'm not sure what owner in any business get's into a business to fail. Making the playoffs ensures the team will make a profit and I'm sure that is his objective. $10,000? $20,000 initiation fee for season tkts? Ludicrous. Significantly raising prices and over pricing the market is a sure way to result in failure. I think you are way undervaluing TD's business knowledge. Having PK on for a year or two with his experience and knowledge isn't a bad idea to bounce ideas off of. In case you haven't heard TD can buy out PK in three years and I will predict that will happen.

On another irrelevant note Okay, so he is involved with something that some call a sport. I played baseball football hockey and golf. Golf by far was and is the hardest sport to excel at.  LOL sounds like you never picked up a club. Try it you might find out out it is a very difficult sport to play. For starters I'll give you two shots per hole. This is two year old data but golf  is a nearly $70 billion industry, supporting two million jobs and $55.6 billion in annual wage income. Golf has a long history of giving back to society and provides an annual charitable impact of about $4 billion per year through 143,000 events and 12 million participants. So I guess TD shouldn't participate in this great business with opportunities galore.

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21 hours ago, slapshot02 said:

Totally irrelevant to your original post. My fear is, Dundon doesn't have a history of sports-team ownership, so for him it will be just another business and he'll defer to PK's judgement in all things related to sport. His Company Top Golf is affordable for all individuals. So TD shouldn't be looking to make a profit? I'm not sure what owner in any business get's into a business to fail. Making the playoffs ensures the team will make a profit and I'm sure that is his objective. $10,000? $20,000 initiation fee for season tkts? Ludicrous. Significantly raising prices and over pricing the market is a sure way to result in failure. I think you are way undervaluing TD's business knowledge. Having PK on for a year or two with his experience and knowledge isn't a bad idea to bounce ideas off of. In case you haven't heard TD can buy out PK in three years and I will predict that will happen.

On another irrelevant note Okay, so he is involved with something that some call a sport. I played baseball football hockey and golf. Golf by far was and is the hardest sport to excel at.  LOL sounds like you never picked up a club. Try it you might find out out it is a very difficult sport to play. For starters I'll give you two shots per hole. This is two year old data but golf  is a nearly $70 billion industry, supporting two million jobs and $55.6 billion in annual wage income. Golf has a long history of giving back to society and provides an annual charitable impact of about $4 billion per year through 143,000 events and 12 million participants. So I guess TD shouldn't participate in this great business with opportunities galore.

 

Okay, I admit I was stretching to make a point, and I apologize. However, I might point out that a lot of YOUR reply is totally irrelevant, as well.

 

You are close to right on a few points. I have attempted to play golf a few times, and I'm frickin' awful at it. You're also correct that golf is a huge industry with huge charitable impact. Both of these facts are irrelevant to Mr. Dundon's buying 52% of the Hurricanes, based on his making his millions as founder/president/CEO of the #1 subprime auto lender in the USA. I mean, really, what effect does the fact that golf gives jobs to two million people in the world (it's just not a USA phenomenon, you know) and provides $55 billion in wages have on the Carolina Hurricanes?

 

Where you're wrong is in calling TopGolf "his company". Thomas Dundon, from what I can find online, owns only 25% of TopGolf. That's not majority ownership. Does he get involved in the day-to-day money decisions at TopGolf? I sort of doubt it. The other 75% would have something to say about that.

 

Plus, you are assuming that "(m)aking the playoffs ensures the team will make a profit", and that's not always the case. I can't come up with any specifics, but I'm sure that it's happened enough that you can't make that blanket claim.

 

I think my original point stands, despite your defense of all things golf (like private 'golf clubs' with $150,000 'initiation fees'). Has Mr. Dundon owned a professional sports franchise? Not that I can tell. In that case, he can choose several paths - he can dive in, learn all he can and be a hands-on owner, he can use the three years before he is legally allowed to buy out PK to learn from PK, or he can just say "oh, I'm not really interested. You run the team, PK." I think you have to acknowledge the latter possibility because he CAN buy out PK after three years. He's not obligated to buy the rest of the team, he merely has that option.

 

 

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1 hour ago, JonKerfoot said:

 

Okay, I admit I was stretching to make a point, and I apologize. However, I might point out that a lot of YOUR reply is totally irrelevant, as well.

 

 

I can explain it all to you but I can't help you understand it. Back to the ignore button.

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Once the sale is finalized the dynamics will change. For several years now our bottom line seems to have been the order of the day(s). Keeping finances as favorable as possible for a potential buyer. We won't know our new buyers philosophy until he actually takes over and begins influencing marketing and allowing moves. But I doubt he bought in to just sit back and continue as we have been operating.

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The way I have characterized this is simply that things are going to change.  What the change is is hard to predict, could be better, could be worse, could end up both depending on your perspective.

 

Example:  could spend to the cap and also significantly increase ticket prices to do so.  Could price some people out of the market.  Might become more of a corporate base than individuals.

 

Who really knows until we see?   But I would find it hard to believe a new owner would not put his stamp on the franchise, why spend almost 300 million to do nothing?  

 

So I'll go out on a limb and say that, while we may finish 9th in the East AGAIN this season, we won't next season.  Might be worse, might be better, but I believe the mediocrity will be over.

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23 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

I don't even think Top Golf is Dundon's company.  He is an investor.  So he partially owns it along with others.  Question is:  How deep are his pockets?

Dundon founded Santander Consumer, a huge financial services company, in 1995, and just got over $700 million in his exit deal. And he was a billionaire before that. So... deep pockets.

 

As to the whole golf argument, discussion it sounds like TopGolf is misunderstood. From the company's web site: "It's a game you play at your favorite local hangout." You hit real balls with real clubs at virtual targets. It's a synthesis of the "real" golf oldsters like me love without the four-hour time commitment that much of GenX and Millennials lack the attention span to play. Seems pretty smart to me; a feeder for those who might eventually commit to playing on real courses, but an affordable way to keep golf fresh and competitive for those who learned it on a Wii.

 

But what's really being missed about Dundon's business acumen (and wealth) is that he built a financial services company right out of college and - in addition to the FatStacks he made while doing so - just got himself a $700 million-plus exit deal. At 44.  

Edited by top-shelf-1
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36 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

 

 

But what's really being missed about Dundon's business acumen (and wealth) is that he built a financial services company right out of college and - in addition to the FatStacks he made while doing so - just got himself a $700 million-plus exit deal. At 44.  

Yeah but that's all irrelevant to being a partner in a hockey team.:rofl:

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I'll just also note that Santander owns naming rights to the Reading, PA arena where the Reading Royals (ECHL) play. But I have no idea if that's where Dundon's interest in hockey originated. I'm guessing it was more likely in Dallas.

 

10 hours ago, realmdrakkar said:

Is he the one who came up with that ridiculous pronunciation as well?  Ack.

 

It's a Spanish company, thus the pronunciation. Spain's largest bank. It bought Dundon's company, Drive Financial Services, in 2005 and made Dundon the new division's CEO (Santander Consumer).

Edited by top-shelf-1
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When I look back at 2017, I'm going to give thanks to participating on This Board, and learning all about "Fat Stacks."  Yo...

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Guys, this thread is hazardous to your health.  I had the weirdest dream last night.  I kid you not!

 

I dreamed that the new owner and PK wanted to get the fan base involved by issuing private debt to the tune of $5k notes at 4%, 10 years.  Sweet deal!  Not exactly a Green Bay Packers deal where you have equity, no, this was just to offload some of PK's debt to a medium term among the fan base.

 

The dream was going well.  They had a luncheon for all investors.  I was there, and RF gave a speech.  Then at the table I'm sitting at, some guy starts bragging that he has Fat Stacks and he's gonna take 100 notes ($500,000).  I then woke up.  I laughed.  I think.  Damn, that was the weirdest dream I've had in years.

Edited by wxray1
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On 12/16/2017 at 10:50 AM, slapshot02 said:

Yeah but that's all irrelevant to being a partner in a hockey team.:rofl:

 

I might point out, for those of you who aren't ignoring me, that I didn't argue that *everything* that ol' Slappy here said was irrelevant to being a partner in a hockey team. Only the part about how many people golf employs, how much it contributes in wages, and how much it contributes in charity every year.... :-)

 

Yes, Mr. Dundon built himself a huge business right out of college, made fantastic amounts and then got a golden parachute when Santander Consumer USA's parent company failed the Federal Reserve's 'stress test' for a second year and he and the parent company agreed to a mutual parting due to differences over management approach. He did it, as the old commercials used to say, "the old-fashioned way" by building a company using other people's money and then selling it at a high price to some other company.

 

He also does have the involvement with Trinity Forest Golf Club, which he also built the same way - put in his own money at first, then used it to leverage other people's money to build the company. I read an article that the city of Dallas was willing to put up $12 million to remediate the dump on which Trinity Forest Golf Club was built, but only if the club would provide $20 million in funds on its own. The club's solution? Solicit, using the name and visage of a pro golfer, members who could afford a $150,000 initiation fee. Get 100 people like that - and that wouldn't be tough at all in Texas - and you're 3/4 of the way to that $20 million.

 

Is that all that it takes to make a hockey organization successful - knowing how to make money? I admit that Dundon's business sense seems to be adaptable, seeing that he went from a failed restaurant venture to a highly successful financial services firm to a golf club that's able to attract a major PGA tournament (though I don't know the mechanics or financials of how the PGA awards tournaments). Is that business acumen enough to ensure sporting success in a place that has, to paraphrase top-shelf-1, "a casual atmosphere" toward NHL hockey?

 

Also, am I allowed to comment in the forum on the obvious lack of class that ol Slappy demonstrates? First he puts me on ignore, then he makes a comment obviously referring to me while staying secure in his "safe place." Immature and classless, IMO.

 

 

Edited by JonKerfoot
Added more info.

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2 hours ago, wxray1 said:

I dreamed that the new owner and PK wanted to get the fan base involved by issuing private debt to the tune of $5k notes at 4%, 10 years.  Sweet deal!  Not exactly a Green Bay Packers deal where you have equity, no, this was just to offload some of PK's debt to a medium term among the fan base.

 

Well, based on how one normally makes money in business - invest your own to start out, then use others' money to build the company 'til it's big and healthy enough to pay you FatStacks.... :lol:

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28 minutes ago, JonKerfoot said:

Is that all that it takes to make a hockey organization successful - knowing how to make money?

 

We all know the painfully obvious answer to that one (cough PK) Jonker.

 

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12 minutes ago, coastal_caniac said:

 

We all know the painfully obvious answer to that one (cough PK) Jonker.

 

 

My point, coastal, is that there are *two* measures of success in this case - the financial success of Hurricanes Holdings and the sporting success of the Hurricanes hockey team. I hope that the two will go hand-in-hand, but we can all name examples where one happens but the other doesn't.

 

On the ice, the Hurricanes have captured lightning in a bottle a few times - 2002, 2006, and 2009. As a fan, I would love to see that success become more consistent. Who wouldn't?

 

Financial success? Well, I don't necessarily want the owners of Hurricanes Holdings to lose money, that's of far less concern (as a person who isn't ever going to make FatStacks enough to be comfortable, let alone a billionaire who can afford to drop cash on owning a sports franchise) to me than having a team that competes on the ice.

Edited by JonKerfoot

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4 minutes ago, JonKerfoot said:

 

My point, coastal, is that there are *two* measures of success in this case - the financial success of Hurricanes Holdings and the sporting success of the Hurricanes hockey team. I hope that the two will go hand-in-hand, but we can all name examples where one happens but the other doesn't.

 

The Hurricanes have captured lightning in a bottle a few times - 2002, 2006, and 2009. Let's hope the team and the company can rise to the point where it can do that on a consistent basis. I can't foretell the future, but I am guardedly hopeful.

 

Makes sense to me, and I have the same concerns - and at the same time I am optimistic that Dundon didn't buy this shiny new toy to sit in the garage and collect dust.

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I'm surprised that nobody's posted this article before (and if I missed seeing it posted elsewhere, I apologize for that). I have to say, most of it is the usual "oh, I got lucky and became a billionaire" sort of thing, but the last few sentences do give me hope - Dundon's golf partner says he doesn't like to lose, in business or in sports.

 

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/business/2015/09/11/for-dallas-newest-billionaire-early-failure-set-stage-for-success

Edited by JonKerfoot
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Quote

 

29 minutes ago

NHL Board of Governors has approved the transfer from Peter Karmanos to Dundon, pending closing.

BREAKING Carolina Hurricanes sale to Thomas Dundon scheduled to close later this morning. Press conference with Gary Bettman tomorrow. With :

 

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7 minutes ago, remkin said:

I wonder how long it will take for a move to be made now...

 

I don't know. Yesterday I read Luke's  piece that seemed to indicate all options regarding operations will be open to review and change.

 

Sale will usher in a new, and dramatically different, era for the Hurricanes

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