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LakeLivin

2017 Traverse City Prospects Tourney

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1 hour ago, super_dave_1 said:

 

edit: I forgot that the offsides challenge rule is now changed to result in a minor penalty for a failed challenge.

 

https://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2017/9/6/16264120/nhl-offside-challenge-rule-change

This will help a lot. Coaches will not challenge just to slow the game down after a goal, and probably only challenge if the call was obviously missed, which was really the intention. It would not only be a penalty, but the timing would be awful. You just got scored on and immediately get a penalty on top of that? Unless it's near the end of the game and it was a go ahead or tying goal, too risky. I bet this cuts them back dramatically.

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I heard of this change yesterday for the first time and had a mental picture of BP smirking. 

 

Did he even win one offsides challenge last year?  I can't remember one.  I liked the way he used them though.

 

With the rule though, teams are going to get burned from time to time.

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1 hour ago, coastal_caniac said:

I heard of this change yesterday for the first time and had a mental picture of BP smirking. 

 

Did he even win one offsides challenge last year?  I can't remember one.  I liked the way he used them though.

 

 

He got his money's worth

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On the whole expanded video review question, I'd like to see it expanded for the stretch drive, i.e., from the TD right through the playoffs. I think that would help improve the officiating year-over-year, without needlessly slowing down regular-season games in the early months of the schedule.

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10 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

On the whole expanded video review question, I'd like to see it expanded for the stretch drive, i.e., from the TD right through the playoffs. I think that would help improve the officiating year-over-year, without needlessly slowing down regular-season games in the early months of the schedule.

 

I disagree with any idea of making different rules for different times of the season or game.  Why is a play in game 82 more important than in game 1?  It's more visible when a team is going for a win or a playoff spot, but getting it right in game 1 may have made the same difference in the end.  Same thing at the end of a game.  That bad call in the first minute can have the same end effect as a bad last minute call.

Edited by super_dave_1
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18 hours ago, OBXer said:

 

This makes sense to get the call right but I hate the reviews. I hate the coaches challenge and I hate the coaches timeout. I dislike anything that slows down the game or can change the flow or momentum, 

I'm late to this discussion, but had a thought on the issue of reviews on questionable hits particularly since the fears of CTE is so pervasive in this era. With respect to "flow of the game" and a solution to being less intrusive on the part of the refs, wonder if some notification could be given to both benches that a Major Review is underway, but take that offsite, in a calmer atmosphere like Toronto or some other place set up specifically to monitor those things, while continuing to play. The decision on the "legality" of the hit could then be made offsite, and the refs notified of the decision and any penalty assessed at that time. If a consistent group of observers were used, you'd start to hopefully see consistency in calls as well as begin to cause players guilty of these infractions to hesitate a fraction knowing their actions will come under more intense scrutiny because there will not be pressure on those making calls to be in a hurry to restart a game? Just a thought? Note that I'm not suggesting that these calls be made by the group deciding about "good goals", but a completely different group altogether. Further, in a time of increasing law suits, this could lend credibility to the NHL, that they are doing everything possible to eliminate dangers blows to the head and such.

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On 9/13/2017 at 11:22 AM, raleighcaniac said:

 

One of things that drives me bat s crazy is when a clean hit is delivered that rocks the other guy to his roots and someone immediately from his team comes in and fights the guy who laid a clean hit. Without needing a ref to make the call players know clean from dirty and fighting a guy who just played the game the way its taught by laying a clean rocking check shouldn't have to look forward to that nonsense. That should be an auto two minutes instigator penalty for the guy that immediately fights the guy who layed the check. The guy who gets nailed? Keep you head up its a big boys game.

 

Yeah, that was not a clean hit when the guy's skates are a foot off the ground to hit another guy who is 6'4" with his elbow.

 

37036026626_a4d1dddf72_o.jpg

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1 hour ago, KJUNKANE said:

I'm late to this discussion, but had a thought on the issue of reviews on questionable hits particularly since the fears of CTE is so pervasive in this era. With respect to "flow of the game" and a solution to being less intrusive on the part of the refs, wonder if some notification could be given to both benches that a Major Review is underway, but take that offsite, in a calmer atmosphere like Toronto or some other place set up specifically to monitor those things, while continuing to play. The decision on the "legality" of the hit could then be made offsite, and the refs notified of the decision and any penalty assessed at that time. If a consistent group of observers were used, you'd start to hopefully see consistency in calls as well as begin to cause players guilty of these infractions to hesitate a fraction knowing their actions will come under more intense scrutiny because there will not be pressure on those making calls to be in a hurry to restart a game? Just a thought? Note that I'm not suggesting that these calls be made by the group deciding about "good goals", but a completely different group altogether. Further, in a time of increasing law suits, this could lend credibility to the NHL, that they are doing everything possible to eliminate dangers blows to the head and such.

 

Yeah, a lot of that is what I had in mind when I raised the issue.  Don't stop play specifically for the review (league review, not a team challenge), but after the next stoppage you don't resume play until the review is complete. The game is so fast it's unrealistic to expect the refs to catch every flagrant hit or specific intent to injure (slash to the hands), but these are too important to be missed, and the technology is such that they needn't be.  If players know that every flagrant hit is almost certain to be caught and harshly punished in that game, I've got to believe it will significantly cut down on those types of plays.  I mean, right now we obsess over whether a player's skate is a quarter inch off the ice when entering the zone but won't take the time to check out a potential illegal hit that could take an opponent out of the game or worse?  Really? :huh:   

Edited by LakeLivin

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28 minutes ago, MinJaBen said:

 

Yeah, that was not a clean hit when the guy's skates are a foot off the ground to hit another guy who is 6'4" with his elbow.

 

37036026626_a4d1dddf72_o.jpg

Great picture Min. That was my thought seeing it in real time. That was not an acceptable hockey play, even if it technically was within the rules. I guess the word that comes to mind is goon.

 

Anyone heard how Roy is? Hard to get that kind of info.

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When a player with speed leans in and comes up and into the body to check an opposing player they will more often than not due to momentum in the follow though leave the ice. That's physics. At the point of contact (and the frame shown above is after the initial contact) he was on the ice and elbow was tucked.

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4 hours ago, super_dave_1 said:

That bad call in the first minute can have the same end effect as a bad last minute call.

I agree, and about early in the year versus late in the year as well. But if you limit it early, any potential negative effect affects all teams equally. The period when teams have their last hope of making the playoffs seems (to me) to justify ramping it up, where doing it all season long would potentially turn hockey's fan experience into something more akin to that of NBA basketball.  

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10 minutes ago, raleighcaniac said:

When a player with speed leans in and comes up and into the body to check an opposing player they will more often than not due to momentum in the follow though leave the ice. That's physics. At the point of contact (and the frame shown above is after the initial contact) he was on the ice and elbow was tucked.

The rule states that any player who leaves his feet while delivering a body check is in violation. "While" would seem to me to include the entire hit. And it's not true that momentum forces a guy to leave his feet in delivering a hit more often than not. Getting that kind of momentum in three steps or less is a lot less likely than when you've built up speed skating through the entire zone.  

 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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8 minutes ago, raleighcaniac said:

Roy will be a smarter player because of it.

We do disagree, but the line above is exactly why a zero-tolerance policy on hits to the head is needed. Concussions don't make players smarter. They give players CTE.

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33 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

The rule states that any player who leaves his feet while delivering a body check is in violation. "While" would seem to me to include the entire hit. And it's not true that momentum forces a guy to leave his feet in delivering a hit more often than not. Getting that kind of momentum in three steps or less is a lot less likely than when you've built up speed skating through the entire zone.  

 

 

You can argue all day long whether the hit was legal.  Nobody knows because there's no video evidence.  I would agree that the still frame above isn't conclusive evidence of an illegal hit. 

 

BUT, what it does support is that a penalty should have been called - for Charging, given the distance traveled to make the hit, and the severity of the hit. And anybody who saw the play in question can't argue that he came from at least 3-4 strides away to make the hit.  Charging can carry any severity of penalty including a game misconduct.

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Two guys who are tall. One who's head was down.  Don't penalize the checker for that. Warner at the point of impact is catching him in the head with his shoulder, elbow nowhere to be seen. Warners left skate is on the ice at impact, right skate off the ice due to collision. Roy skated into the middle of a 4 pack of Wild. He set himself up.

Capture.JPG

Edited by raleighcaniac

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I think the agree to disagree thing is probably where we're at here.

 

I feel that the guy skated from the back all the way up to inside the blueline to make a high open ice hit that is completely out of place in this tournament. I am so sick of concussions, that even being close to the head in a tournament like this, is just uncalled for just so one guy could make a "statement" 13 seconds into a consolation game. But the refs agreed with you RC, and for what it's worth Minnesota's announcers responded to Warner running around hitting everyone as "it's his ice". So clearly there are two views on this.

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I don't know if anyone subscribes to the Athletic, but apparently Cory Prongman is there now, and had a piece about some of our prospects in Traverse City. I guess he though Necas, Kuokkanen, and Roy impressed (agree) and Gauthier did not (agree), but he also thought Fleury disappointed. I'm curious why he thought that. I'm guessing it was lack of offense, and maybe no big hits? I thought Fleury looked pretty good.

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In the vein of Dman talk I was on NBC Sports and saw some 'expert' arguing for a straight up Duchene / Hannifan trade.  Based on Duchene getting so jacked by Joe the last year or so he may have a less than good year if his head and heart isn't into it being in CO anymore.

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56 minutes ago, coastal_caniac said:

You can argue all day long whether the hit was legal.  Nobody knows because there's no video evidence.

 

The video evidence...is on the Canes website.

 

He definitely launched himself upwards when hitting him.

Edited by MinJaBen

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1 hour ago, MinJaBen said:

 

The video evidence...is on the Canes website.

 

He definitely launched himself upwards when hitting him.

Yup, and left his RHD position, despite Roy being surrounded by three other Wild players, to deliver it. That's targeting, plain and simple.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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2 hours ago, raleighcaniac said:

Two guys who are tall. One who's head was down.  Don't penalize the checker for that. Warner at the point of impact is catching him in the head with his shoulder, elbow nowhere to be seen. Warners left skate is on the ice at impact, right skate off the ice due to collision. Roy skated into the middle of a 4 pack of Wild. He set himself up.

Capture.JPG

OK, I had not viewed this play in real time, but now that I have, seems to me that part of the argument being put forth that "its a hockey play" suggests that "if the player's head is down" than that legitimizes a head shot, "because its a hockey play"?  Further, because Warner does not impact with his elbow, and questionable whether he leaves his feet(pre or post hit, both feet are off the ground and I don't buy that basic physics prescribes that), but Roy does have his head inclined to watch the puck and I can't say I know enough about playing to comment on how one controls puck movement without doing so, but my question in all this is, Even with Roy's head PARTIALLY inclined downward, why is it necessary to deliver a blow dislodging his helmet to separate him from the puck? Warner comes from far enough away and has time to see where Roy's head is located that he could just as easily deliver his blow to the shoulder with the same effect, unless his intent was one to injure, ie " head hunting".

 

I'd go even one step further, with the voluminous research into CTE injuries concluding seemingly indisputable proof of multiple cases of later life mental crippling, if we as the consumer of this sports product don't act responsibly to demand curtailment of these ruthless acts, law suits, etc will take this sport away or change it to the equivalent of touch football. Regarding it as a "hockey play" ensures this sport's demise, IMHO    

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One additional comment I'll throw out out here which also occurred to me, and it's a slight elaboration on top's comment, the 3 players surrounding Roy likely totally occupied his attention, thus this Warner guy entered and foisted his hit on an essentially defenseless player. Cowardly at best? 

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