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In Season 2017-18 Talk

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8 minutes ago, Whaler1 said:

I hope I'm totally wrong with my initial impression and his odd business model sets the standard for the rest of the league but man, I sure hope his "meddling" doesn't turn into another Charles Wang-type cluster gaggle. He was all about business and hands on too and knew little about the sport.    

 

Personally, I think the org needs some meddling.  In the worse way.  That's what I see happening and until the GM is hired that's all it is.

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3 minutes ago, Whaler1 said:

I don't know, between some Twitter comments and Maclean and Kypreos sharing some opinions on nhl.com a few days ago, I'm not really left with a hand wringing, confidence inspiring impression about him and the club's future. Guess I have to wait and see. ........ I sure hope his "meddling" doesn't turn into another Charles Wang-type cluster gaggle.

Whaler, I am right there with you. I hope the impression I have gotten is the right one. If, our favorite word I know, the system works the way I think TD has indicated then he will have little direct involvement with decision making. I haven't seen the comments you are referencing so I can't comment on those.

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Since the Francis Fired thread is now gone I have to get this off my chest so I'll put it here.

 

And not to pile on, but I think Francis made a major blunder trading Hainsey and not replacing him with another gray beard on D.  Everybody ragged on Hainsey but he was glue back there.  Our young, hugely praise-worthy D everyone was talking about before the season is not a very good collective defense today.  Actually, it's at the bottom of the league.

 

I don't normally put a GM hat on but this one nags at my craw. 

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And since I'm rambling and half-toasted I would love to see my beloved defense add a gray beard that plays on the edge of the rules every night. That my friends, is changing the culture.

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More rambling, sorry.  What really ****** me off, if it's true, is the fact Francis reportedly would not draft a player he had not seen play.  What the dadgum?  I think the team missed on some first round talent if your metric is who was drafted in the next two or three spots over the last few drafts.  That's a can of worms but I think there's enough to question GMRF's record in the draft.  Not to mention not making a trade when the draft is a great option.

 

Anyway, the organization was malfunctioning, and now what everybody wanted is happening.  Form and function has people all freaked out though.

 

 

 

 

Edited by coastal_caniac

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3 hours ago, hopper915 said:

Even though the Panthers have made more appearances in the playoffs than us over the last 9 years, they really haven't made much of anything and they haven't moved... yet.

If not for the Canes winning the Stanley Cup in 2006, I think this would have already happened.

As far as BP and his decisions, I wonder if some of his decisions for OT, goalie, etc..... was more of a middle finger to GMRF than bad coaching.

 

If BP made ANY decision not designed first and foremost to win a game then he needs to go. Yesterday. Mind you, I’m not saying he ever did such a thing. But he does have a knack for putting out threesomes in OT that can’t even get us to the shootout. That may be a different issue.

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On 3/14/2018 at 11:29 AM, OBXer said:

 

Hire a GM

 

I have three

Aho

Slavin

Staal

I’d add Turbo and probably Pesce. But to get value you have to give value. So the list can’t be too long.

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9 hours ago, bluedevilcane said:

I’d add Turbo and probably Pesce. But to get value you have to give value. So the list can’t be too long.

They would be on my don't want to trade list along with Skinner, McGinn and Hanifin but not on my untouchable list

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I just have:

Aho

Turbo

Slavin

maybe Staal

Those are my building blocks. (If this truly the rebuild of the rebuild, which it seems)

Edited by sleekfeeder

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No one is untouchable if the price is right. 

 

That said here's what I think needs to happen.

 

- Aho and Slavin are about as untouchable as it gets for us.  Everyone else should be in play.  Staal would be difficult to replace though.  We are much better when he is out there.  Turbo seems to have taken a leap this year too.  Pesce maybe.  Everyone else, meh...

- I LOVE Faulk and Skinner, but I think both need to be moved given we can get good value for them. 

- Put Pesce and Slavin together as #1 pairing D and leave them there.  They are being paid like workhorses, ride them!

- Resign Lindholm, put him at center and leave him there.  Put him with Turbo and Aho and leave them together!  That is a hellacious line to deal with...

 

Other moves are dependent on what we do during the offseason.

Edited by ironman87
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13 hours ago, hopper915 said:

 

As far as BP and his decisions, I wonder if some of his decisions for OT, goalie, etc..... was more of a middle finger to GMRF than bad coaching.

 

 

If it is, he should be fired immediately.  That's not the way to handle a disagreement with management when hundreds of other employees and tens of thousands of fans are affected too.  Giving a middle finger to your boss which may cost people's livelihood is just wrong.

 

I don't think BP is that guy.  I don't see it as a middle finger, I see it as his "blender-mixer" style, which is getting real old, real fast.

Edited by wxray1
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11 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

 

And not to pile on, but I think Francis made a major blunder trading Hainsey and not replacing him with another gray beard on D.  Everybody ragged on Hainsey but he was glue back there. 

 

It wasn't everybody.  There was a good contingent of us who appreciated the grey beard.  I think this year proves what we lost.

 

10 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

More rambling, sorry.  What really ****** me off, if it's true, is the fact Francis reportedly would not draft a player he had not seen play.  What the dadgum? 

 

If true, then RF is more of a micro-manager than TD.  What the dadgum indeed.  :)

 

TD is being roasted by the mostly Canadian media for wanting to micromanage his GM before they've even seen the relationship.  I think TD is clear he wants more of a team of decision makers.  He wants to run it like he would a business.  In business, they call it the "C-suite".  The board of directors and primary officers make the big decisions together.

 

Hockey (as most sports) have traditionally had more of a military style of management.  This will ruffle feathers.

 

TD needs to seriously look at the scouting staff.  The scouting staff needs to have enough authority and autonomy to be primary decision makers in the draft.  This will require good pay and $$.  Hopefully, TD can cough it up.

Edited by wxray1

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35 minutes ago, ironman87 said:

No one is untouchable if the price is right.

 

 

This,  I love some of the players on this team, however the 'group' isn't working.  There are certainly some i want to see back, those being the same that many others want to see back - Aho, TT, Slavin, and Pesce; to a lesser extent Williams, Staal, Lindholm, and Skinner - but if it gets us an exciting, competitive, aggressive team that'll go to the net and not play powderpuff hockey, i'll get over any of them leaving (though i'd certainly hate to see a couple of them in another team's sweater).  I'm still on the fence about Peters but if Dundon brings in the next Yzerman as GM and the guy has the right coach to complement his management style, make it so.

 

Count me in as one who doesn't think Waddell's the guy (that's a major understatement), and also as one who doesn't think Peters is the type to jeopardize a game just to make a statement to his boss.

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12 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

Since the Francis Fired thread is now gone I have to get this off my chest so I'll put it here.

 

And not to pile on, but I think Francis made a major blunder trading Hainsey and not replacing him with another gray beard on D.  Everybody ragged on Hainsey but he was glue back there.  Our young, hugely praise-worthy D everyone was talking about before the season is not a very good collective defense today.  Actually, it's at the bottom of the league.

 

I don't normally put a GM hat on but this one nags at my craw. 

 

11 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

And since I'm rambling and half-toasted I would love to see my beloved defense add a gray beard that plays on the edge of the rules every night. That my friends, is changing the culture.

 

I really can't overstate how much I agree with this.  I don't think the Boston meltdown happens with that presence on the ice/bench.  Hainsey wasn't the greatest, but he had seen it all and could settle down the troops.  If not him, then he should have been replaced by a similar guy.

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1 hour ago, wxray1 said:

I don't see it as a middle finger, I see it as his "blender-mixer" style, which is getting real old, real fast.

It could be that it was both, the latter because nothing was working, and the former--albeit post-facto. As in the following (entirely hypothetical) meeting in RF's office, after the latest OT loss:

 

RF: What the hell happened, Bill?

BP: Um... we lost again?

RF: Why would you put out two D and a defensive forward?

BP: You mean, instead of our league-leading 1C with SeaBass and TT? Oh, wait...

RF: *** you Bill, and your water system too. This meeting is over.

 

Funny perhaps, but for all the negativity about the blender - and long-timers will remember that I called early and often for BP to just settle on lines and keep putting them out there 'til they figured it out - the one thing it has proved is that NO COMBINATION OF THE CURRENT ROSTER WORKS CONSISTENTLY, with precious few exceptions: TT and Aho with (pretty much) anybody, Pesce and Slavin TOGETHER, and Jordan with (name any two players).

 

So for me, those are your building blocks among skaters. I'd keep Willy too. I'd also keep Lindholm, who is quickly becoming a beast all over the rink, and McGinn, who already is. If we don't secure a 1C, we still have two solid top lines and a great top D pairing:

 

TT - Lindholm - Aho

Willy - Jordan - McGinn

Pesce - Slavin

 

I'd also keep Nordy. Some here don't like him, but every job he has been given he has done well. He plays second-line caliber defense on the fourth line now, but when he played with Jordan in BP's first two years, he was terrific. In short, he's a team player of the sort you want to have around. 

 

None of which does a damn thing to address the most glaring need: Goaltending.

 

But all of the above are new enough and/or have won enough to (1) be a solid core going forward, and (2) exorcise the baggage of the this org's recent past. The change-of-scene argument works well in trade talks for guys like Skinner, Faulk, Rask, and Cam--who, in particular, I think would be a valued backup anywhere in the league.

 

So why not keep him?

 

Because we need a clean break, and the new netminders, whomever they are, to work without a net. If 10 years is not an ample enough body of work to know that Cam (1) is best as a backup, and (2) will fight to be #1, only to break down under the workload, I don't know what is. Great guy, awesome story, terrific family. But it's time to move on.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1
typos

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When in the starting lineup Justin Williams stands on the blue line near the boards of the penalty box side.  He's far away from the other players who stand mostly closer to the Canes bench.

 

Has that always been the case with him?  He's done it all season, but I just don't recall if he did so when last here (or elsewhere).

 

If it is just a quirky thing, then fine.  Looks odd, but I don't want to draw any conclusion.  Anyone?

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12 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

Since the Francis Fired thread is now gone I have to get this off my chest so I'll put it here.

 

And not to pile on, but I think Francis made a major blunder trading Hainsey and not replacing him with another gray beard on D.  Everybody ragged on Hainsey but he was glue back there.  Our young, hugely praise-worthy D everyone was talking about before the season is not a very good collective defense today.  Actually, it's at the bottom of the league.

 

I don't normally put a GM hat on but this one nags at my craw. 

 

Smith said directly in his chalk talk what a huge loss the Hainsey trade was for the PK, specifically his smarts/experience.  He wasn't making excuses for this season's PK at the time, but I am.

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

...

None of which does a damn thing to address the most glaring need: Goaltending.

 

But all of the above are new enough and/or have won enough to (1) be a solid core going forward, and (2) exorcise the baggage of the this org's recent past. The change-of-scene argument works well in trade talks for guys like Skinner, Faulk, Rask, and Cam--who, in particular, I think would be a valued backup anywhere in the league.

 

So why not keep him?

 

Because we need a clean break, and the new netminders, whomever they are, to work without a net. If 10 years is not an ample enough body of work to know that Cam (1) is best as a backup, and (2) will fight to be #1, only to break down under the workload, I don't know what is. Great guy, awesome story, terrific family. But it's time to move on.

 

 

+1

 

The 20 year anniversary stuff has been fun and all, but am I the only one ready to move on?  I actually kind of grind my teeth lately at these spots.  They have a way of rubbing our nose in the current pile of stuff.

 

I suspect TD will direct a different spin for the fans.  Hopefully, it won't be so cheesy as to be "The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades."  But rather something that emphasizes moves forward, instead of constantly looking at the glories of the past.

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I just hope all of the hubbub about TD's bad timing, meddling, etc. doesn't keep us from getting our guy for GM. I agree that once that guy is in, a lot of this talk will die down so long as Dundon is not actually Jerry Jones.

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I think the gray beard void on D is also a valid point. Hainsey was slow, but the guy was tough and hockey smart. He had that veteran savvy. He played D the right way.

 

But even more so, and I know this may be going beyond the intended point here, but to me at least, it is even worse than the void of no gray beard. Because of that void, and the (IMO) mistake of elevating him to Captain, we were left with the guy in the gray beard roll on D being a guy who is patently bad at playing D the right way, Justin Faulk. Yes, that was a bit of a run on sentence, but the point is that J Faulk is now the guy in the mentor role. This is not helping get Hanifin or other young guys up to speed in the D zone.

 

IMO a trade that moves Faulk out and a gray beard solid D guy in, especially a RHD, might fix the D in one move (or more likely two separate moves: Faulk for a forward and X for that D man (or UFA)).

 

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IMO, this year's D suck has everything to do Faulk not showing up as the leader which (I believe) he has long been groomed to become, and not one thing to do with Hainsey's absence. Faulk - from All-Star appearances to PR (free queso!) to TOI - had a golden opportunity to really step up this year. Instead, like Mister Dobz said after watching him in Chicago, "He must really like hockey, because all he does is watch it."

 

Six years (now in his seventh) in this league. Four All-Star games. At what point do Faulk's defenders finally kick the crutches out from under him (Hainsey being one) and ask why he sucks?? Because IMO, there's no excuse for it. THE GUY CAN PLAY D--seriously good D. I've seen him do it. Every 15th game or so he pulls out a play that's every bit as good as those Slavin and Pesce make EVERY NIGHT. And you know what? That's the job. The problem is that waaaaaay more often than not, Faulker chooses not to do it.

 

If he was ever going to step into a leadership role, this was the year. He was playing for the same coach under whom he enjoyed his all-time best season (2014-15), when he got 22 votes for the Norris Trophy. He was given the C. Hainsey was gone. What more motivation should a guy need to go out there and leave it all on the ice every night?

Edited by top-shelf-1
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4 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

IMO, this year's D suck has everything to do Faulk not showing up as the leader which (I believe) he has long been groomed to become, and not one thing to do with Hainsey's absence. Faulk - from All-Star appearances to PR (free queso!) to TOI - had a golden opportunity to really step up this year. Instead, like Mister Dobz said after watching him in Chicago, "He must really like hockey, because all he does is watch it."

 

Respectfully disagree.  I'm not defending Faulk's play, but deciding a guy is a leader and sewing a C on his jersey does not make him a leader.  Making those decisions is on the coach/GM.  The GM didn't replace the Hainsey (gray beard) influence and the team ended up with a defensive unit with no captain and no tiller.

Edited by super_dave_1
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Wouldn't mind rebooting Williams having the C but once again how do you do it without kicking Jordan in the balls. He wasn't a bad C at all but he's so far removed from winning can he find the words and wisedom to right the ship?

 

Meanwhile I would love to see Faulk stripped of the C immediately like a cheesy 80's police movie literally ripping it off his chest.

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