Jump to content
The Official Site of the Carolina Hurricanes
raleighcaniac

To Trade, or not to trade

Recommended Posts

Isn’t the point of acquiring a rental player to not give up a roster player?  And Max would be our #7 scoring forward on the team.  And he’s going to be 30 later this year.  I would acquire him for picks and prospects but not a roster player, although him for Faulk sounds good on paper.  To me it sounds like the Andrew Ladd all over again.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Caniac514 said:

Saw this. Let's hope so. We need him to get back on track. To the eye test his skating has been rough at times. Like he's trying too hard. Also a minus 13. He's never been a great defensive forward but that's eesh. Near doubly as bad as the second worst on the team at minus 7 and that's faulk

Edited by sleekfeeder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

Isn’t the point of acquiring a rental player to not give up a roster player?  And Max would be our #7 scoring forward on the team.  And he’s going to be 30 later this year.  I would acquire him for picks and prospects but not a roster player, although him for Faulk sounds good on paper.  To me it sounds like the Andrew Ladd all over again.

Yup. No way I waste time, money, or personnel on Max. I'd rather see what our kids can bring than move any of them to get him.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, sleekfeeder said:

He's never been a great defensive forward but that's eesh. Near doubly as bad as the second worst on the team at minus 7 and that's faulk

That's true, but it's also not like his line is built to defend. Couple that with Darling's awful record and this whole team's +/- is skewed.

 

I've said it plenty already, but BP is really mis-using Derek Ryan. If there's a God, the injuries to Kruger and Wallmark will force him to put Derek back on the fourth where he belongs, and Skinner with Rask and Willy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Yup. No way I waste time, money, or personnel on Max. I'd rather see what our kids can bring than move any of them to get him.

I get your point and would not move any youth for him but I'd move Faulk in a heartbeat. Net gain is more scoring and a better leader on and off the ice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, slapshot02 said:

I get your point and would not move any youth for him but I'd move Faulk in a heartbeat. Net gain is more scoring and a better leader on and off the ice.

I hear ya, but I think Faulk may have more value in a bigger move, if indeed one is there at some point. If the Isles slide continues I could see Faulk and a top prospect (Kouk?) bringing back JT. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I hear ya, but I think Faulk may have more value in a bigger move, if indeed one is there at some point. If the Isles slide continues I could see Faulk and a top prospect (Kouk?) bringing back JT. 

I believe that spells RF to a T.  Do we wait for the perfect fit  if indeed one is there at some point or do we act now not for the huge deal but for a smaller one that still improves the team. I'll take more goal production now rather than a Faulk burger tomorrow.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

Top, if RF can somehow turn Faulk and friends into John Tavares, I would 100% get behind it.

I think the odds favor the Isle being forced to make a decision pretty quickly. They have a great young core, and removing themselves from the JT sweepstakes could be attractive to them, particularly if they get back a couple of vets as a bridge to their future. 

 

From our POV, we're already seeing why Aho and TT are going to have big price tags. TT has a year left on his deal; it comes due the same time Aho's next deal is due. Hanifin and Lindholm get paid this summer, Fleury in two more years. Skinner only has a year left on his deal. Add Jordo and Faulk to this list, then ask yourself: whom do you keep? 

 

Off-loading both Faulk and Jordo now, if they'd return JT, creates the space to pay him, solves our 1C and captain problems, and allows the org to afford the rest of the above, assuming Dundon puts his money where his mouth is. It also gives the Isles two vets and known payroll costs, probably important to them as they prep to move to a new home back on the Island.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, slapshot02 said:

I'll take more goal production now rather than a Faulk burger tomorrow.

Me too, but if JT is moving this year, it's happening in 60 days or less. With the Isle sinking fast, I'd offer Faulk and Jordo right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I think the odds favor the Isle being forced to make a decision pretty quickly. They have a great young core, and removing themselves from the JT sweepstakes could be attractive to them, particularly if they get back a couple of vets as a bridge to their future. 

 

From our POV, we're already seeing why Aho and TT are going to have big price tags. TT has a year left on his deal; it comes due the same time Aho's next deal is due. Hanifin and Lindholm get paid this summer, Fleury in two more years. Skinner only has a year left on his deal. Add Jordo and Faulk to this list, then ask yourself: whom do you keep? 

 

Off-loading both Faulk and Jordo now, if they'd return JT, creates the space to pay him, solves our 1C and captain problems, and allows the org to afford the rest of the above, assuming Dundon puts his money where his mouth is. It also gives the Isles two vets and known payroll costs, probably important to them as they prep to move to a new home back on the Island.

 

My vote for the trade is Faulk and Rask.  ~8 million

Kruger should be moved later ~3 million

Stempniak comes off this season and Williams next ~7 million

Ryan and Dahlbeck coming off ~ 2 million

subtracting 20 million from the current hit. 

Add Tavares at 10 million

Aho is going to be between 6 & 7 million

Skinner will get a slight increase of 1 million

Lindholm will get a small increase, maybe something close to Rask's deal ~1.3 million increase

So we are back to where we are right now with those 4.  

 

Hard to predict what kind of contract and how much Hanifin and Fleury will get.  My guess is dad tells Hanifin to go bridge contract to maximize return

Add a couple million for ELCs

Fleury looks to get a similar contract to what TVR will get 3 years 2.5 mil per. 

 

It gets messy once we start considering Turbo.  If Durdin wants to spend over 70 million in salary then Turbo can stay.

 

Side note, we seemed to miss the boat when GMRF didnt trade Faulk for Hall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Me too, but if JT is moving this year, it's happening in 60 days or less. With the Isle sinking fast, I'd offer Faulk and Jordo right now.

I get moving Faulk. But Faulk and Jordan for a rental JT? If you mean with a trade and sign, then JT is worth moving heaven and Earth, but we just flat out disagree on Jordan Staal. We've been through it before, so not much point in doing it again. But I do the Faulk thing, and if it's a trade and sign, I'd throw in Rask if they want him and even some good (not Necas) prospects and picks, but JT-JS down the middle would be a phenomenal 1-2 punch. The fact that Jordan just plain eliminates the advantage of the other guy's top line, all while Aho and TT light them up, would then allow the JT's line to dominate the goal differential thing.

 

On Pacioretty, it all comes down to price for a guy with only one year left on his contract. While I still sort of like the Faulk for Pacioretty straight up, I do think your point about holding Faulk for a better move is a good one. The word is that the price on Pacioretty is VERY HIGH. Here we go again (see Duchene). Depending on what very high is, Francis is highly unlikely to make that move if the price is very high.

 

The team's sudden arrival as a playoff caliber team with the results to show thusfar, will put Francis sitting back in his seat a bit more. He is vindicated too in waiting this thing out. Francis is preternaturally patient. Further, I've argued he wants his first big move to be a long term winner. Somehow Pacioretty doesn't feel like that, though I would still love to have him on this team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

. . .

Off-loading both Faulk and Jordo now, if they'd return JT, creates the space to pay him, solves our 1C and captain problems, and allows the org to afford the rest of the above, assuming Dundon puts his money where his mouth is. It also gives the Isles two vets and known payroll costs, probably important to them as they prep to move to a new home back on the Island.

 

Top, I see what you're shooting for with respect to long term roster management, and you do have some valid points.  But Jordan has a NMC.  Think about his considerations if he were asked to waive it:

  • Living in Raleigh (where his family has been settled for 5 years) vs bouncing between Brooklyn and Long Island (keep in mind that J and his wife are from Thunder Bay, Ont)
  • This season: surging Canes vs. a fast dropping, Tavares-less Isles
  • Long term: a very young Canes org on the uptick with a great pipeline vs. a Tavares-less Isles (I don't know what they've got in their pipeline, but I'd be surprised if it was as good as ours, cough, cough, Necas)  
  • J has suffered through the lean years.  He was just given a C (/2) and has been a big part of getting us to the threshold. What are the odds that he's willing to forfeit the opportunity to step over it into a new era of Canes hockey? 

Let's ignore that C is currently our shallowest position, so even though we'd be plugging up the biggest hole in our boat this season (#1C) we'd be creating a new, smaller one at the same time.  I'm assuming the implication is that the deal you're proposing includes a sign-and-trade by Tavares.  Think about the logistics of the deal:

  • Canes and Isles agreeing on terms, which would require
  • Jordan waiving NMC
  • Tavares agreeing to long term contract with Canes

How long would you reasonably expect getting all of that to take? During which time both Tavares and Staal (and probably most of their teammates) would be playing with the knowledge that their teams were actively trying to trade them.  Staal hasn't been part of our problems this year, just the opposite.  I don't know the odds of Tavares giving up testing the free agent market in order to sign with the Canes, but given the very slim chance of Jordan waiving his NMC to go the the Isles, imo it would be irresponsible of RF to risk damaging team morale by shopping an effective team captain.  

 

Faulk and some combination of Rask, picks, and any prospects not named Necas for a sign and trade Tavares.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LakeLivin said:

Faulk and some combination of Rask, picks, and any prospects not named Necas for a sign and trade Tavares.

 

I'm looking at it from the Isles' POV. Jordan Staal is a marquee name. Victor Rask... anyone? Bueller? To my mind, Faulk is the sweetener in this deal. 

 

Of course the NMC is an issue. But I'd rather find out sooner than later if Jordo is willing to waive. Maybe he defies the odds and plays here until he's 36. But if he'd waive and brought back Tavares, I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. Among TT, Aho, Wallmark, Rask, and Lindholm, I'm far less concerned than some about filling Jordo's skates. 

 

All of this being said, I'll just add something I've alluded to but not spelled out as yet: I'm increasingly unconvinced we need to do a damned thing. Note that is different than saying we don't need to; just that we may not. There is no question that contributions are coming from multiple quarters now, or that, over the last three weeks, the team is playing with a cohesion and determination that looks a whole lot (to my eye) like gelling.

 

So, I have some concern that shaking up the room with a major move at this point could cause more problems than it solves. If JT is the objective, he will be there come summer regardless. I think there's a lot more cause for justifiable concern around Darling right now than around the need for scoring.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

 

I I think there's a lot more cause for justifiable concern around Darling right now than around the need for scoring.

 

Dilly Dilly! I don't want to see Mongo again until the 11th at Wash which would give Ward 2 days rest to face Wash at home on the 12th.

Edited by slapshot02
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I hear ya, but I think Faulk may have more value in a bigger move, if indeed one is there at some point. If the Isles slide continues I could see Faulk and a top prospect (Kouk?) bringing back JT. 

 

No way is Tavares leaving the Islanders. If he leaves as a UFA, the fans there can hate him forever. If he gets traded, they will hate management forever. TB held onto Stamkos amid a lot of belief he would sign elsewhere as a UFA, and in the end he stayed. I think the Islanders will go to the bitter end with Tavares before taking the fan blowback for trading him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bluedevilcane said:

 

No way is Tavares leaving the Islanders. If he leaves as a UFA, the fans there can hate him forever. If he gets traded, they will hate management forever. TB held onto Stamkos amid a lot of belief he would sign elsewhere as a UFA, and in the end he stayed. I think the Islanders will go to the bitter end with Tavares before taking the fan blowback for trading him.

You may be right. But the fact that Tavares has set himself up to at least test the waters come summer suggests he wants to explore all his options.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

No offense, but giving away Faulk and Staal for a rental is just laughable.

I never said for a rental. No way you do it if it's not a trade/sign. And I do think it's an extreme long shot that Tavares goes anywhere before summer, if he goes at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trading Faulk and Staal isn’t a trade the Canes make.  If you trade an all-star defender, you aren’t trading your best center as well.  If we go 2 established roster playerd, it would be Rask.  Im not sure Faulk and a B rated prospects like Roy or Kuokkanen get it done., unless its pure rental.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, if it ever came down to a trade and sign, which I also agree, seems unlikely, but still theoretically could happen, (and as the Isle's have come back to Earth, and then kept going to auger in, it might be growing in likihood), but, if it ever came down to a trade and sign, Faulk and a B level prospect doesn't get it done. Here I can at least see what Top is going for in the sense that the return for the Islanders in that scenario would have to be pretty high. If they trade this uber elite 1C, franchise player, and get back a middling D man and a B level prospect, the ire of the fans and media would be off the charts. Plus, in reality, if JT would sign with his new club, they will get FAR better offers.

 

We probably have to give a LOT more. If the alleged price tag on Pacioretty is "very high", just image the tag on Tavares.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately the idiot Sens GM paid an asinine price for Duchene.  Now everyone else thinks that is the standard for someone that isn’t a pending FA.  

 

I understand JT will be expensive but Faulk and Jordan is too much.  Faulk isn’t a middling Dman.  Yea he frustrates us this season but he is an all star defender that can put up 20+ goals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, remkin said:

Here I can at least see what Top is going for in the sense that the return for the Islanders in that scenario would have to be pretty high.

 

Exactly. I feel like I again need to emphasize that I see little chance it happens. But you don't know if you don't ask.

 

If the Canes really want to make the splash we've all been talking about AND solve a host of existing and pending issues, offering both Faulk and Jordo for JT right now in a trade-and-sign is very probably the only shot RF is likely to have at bringing back a bonafide 1C via trade in the foreseeable future. That's not to say he couldn't win him in the summer sweepstakes, but of those two scenarios, trading now is by far the simpler and more cost effective one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

Faulk isn’t a middling Dman.

You're right. He's worse.

 

It takes more than a sporadically accurate cannon, not knowing when to pinch, and chasing the play back to your own zone all night long to be even a middling d-man. Faulk is not shutting down plays anywhere near as consistently as any other D player on this roster. That is the definition of a bottom-pair guy, no matter how the org might try to burnish his rep with ASGs and co-Cs.

 

Edit to add: What I find most vexing is that, as you note, he has shown the chops in the past to be much better. It is almost as if he is disinterested, or too comfortable. The best recipe for that, IMO, is a change of scene.  

Edited by top-shelf-1
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...