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The Thread about Goalies

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5 hours ago, OBXer said:

I can't help but wonder if tonight is Cam's last game as a Cane

I hope not. I know this is a minority position with others on the board. Used as a true #2, I think he would be effective. Class guy too.

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I'm fine with Cam as the back up, but I really think Darling has to go. If he comes back and gets to the upper echelons I will enthusiastically eat crow, but this year has left me shaken, right up to the end.

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It’s waaaayyy too early to draw conclusions about TD and his willingness to spend money. He spent a ton to buy the team. For now at least, I can’t believe he is going to devalue that investment by cheating out. But actions speak louder than words, so let’s watch over the summer and see. I think the approach to replacing Francis was a bit ham-handed, but I don’t mean money wise. Pursuing assistant GM’s of Stanley Cup contenders during the stretch run was destined to fail. I’m skeptical that anyone really knows what he offered monetarily to any candidate, if any conversations even got that far. He does need to rethink the idea of collective decisions going forward, but hopefully he will figure out that will not work (and that he can keep some of his thoughts to himself). 

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1 hour ago, bluedevilcane said:

It’s waaaayyy too early to draw conclusions about TD and his willingness to spend money. He spent a ton to buy the team. For now at least, I can’t believe he is going to devalue that investment by cheating out. But actions speak louder than words, so let’s watch over the summer and see. I think the approach to replacing Francis was a bit ham-handed, but I don’t mean money wise. Pursuing assistant GM’s of Stanley Cup contenders during the stretch run was destined to fail. I’m skeptical that anyone really knows what he offered monetarily to any candidate, if any conversations even got that far. He does need to rethink the idea of collective decisions going forward, but hopefully he will figure out that will not work (and that he can keep some of his thoughts to himself). 

 

That. My biggest concern it that when the time comes, even TD's fat wallet might not be enough to draw the top end talent we need and want. Guess we just have to wait and see. I just hope that Dundon vision and endeavors doesn't turn the Canes into an Edsel team.    

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This is only my opinion and not an attempt to sway anyone who sees it differently. If there is one player who deserves to spend his entire career with this team it's Ward-0 He earned his backup role and more this season. He is a competitor. I'm not sure he will and listening to his post game it is obvious he isn't either. Our goalie situation has to be addressed. How we do that is the question.

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Without a practice facility or even any rumblings on a practice facility, our regression this year personally I think this teams a hard sell even if you try to shove money down the guys throat.

 

In terms of Cam, I'd love for him to retire on his own terms as Cane I think he deserves it but I think the business side of things is going to screw him out of that. We gotta find a starter, he's the contract coming off the books and it's clear his ceiling right now is a backup. I don't think Darling deserves to be back but it's not my money to buy out a guy with 3 years left.

 

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I too would like to see Cam finish his career here. If not for him this season, we'd be below the Sabres in the Eastern Conference.

Perhaps Mgmt brings him back for another season or two, at a backup's salary, something around 1-2mil a season. Just a matter of what Cam wants to do.

I don't think he'll play for another NHL team. He doesn't want to uproot his family and has settled roots in the local community.

 

Darling has been nothing close to advertised.

Came into training camp out of shape.

Blamed not having a healthy/good food to eat.....

Blamed his glove for his play.... Changed glove.

Blamed his equipment for his play..... Changed equipment.

Blamed his helmet for his play.... Made multiple changes there too.

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7 hours ago, legend-1 said:

Without a practice facility or even any rumblings on a practice facility, our regression this year personally I think this teams a hard sell even if you try to shove money down the guys throat.

 

In terms of Cam, I'd love for him to retire on his own terms as Cane I think he deserves it but I think the business side of things is going to screw him out of that. We gotta find a starter, he's the contract coming off the books and it's clear his ceiling right now is a backup. I don't think Darling deserves to be back but it's not my money to buy out a guy with 3 years left.

 

 

Wake Competition Center in Morrisville is being built.  Apparantly....

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19 hours ago, OBXer said:

This is only my opinion and not an attempt to sway anyone who sees it differently. If there is one player who deserves to spend his entire career with this team it's Ward-0 He earned his backup role and more this season. He is a competitor. I'm not sure he will and listening to his post game it is obvious he isn't either. Our goalie situation has to be addressed. How we do that is the question.

 

I agree that Cam could be a great backup, provided he's limited to 25 games. But we've seen how that's worked out. He has been forced to take on more work. So - and this is from an overall organizational standpoint, leaving aside the emotion of where he should finish his career - unless there is bonafide #1 keeper available (and by that I mean a proven guy) I think we're pretty much committed to Darling. Based on statistics - which so many here seem to love so much, until they decide they love their guts more - it is faaaaaar more likely that what happened with him this year was the outlier than it is what we can expect in the future, especially when his much better second half and the fact that he showed up for camp completely out of shape are factored in.

 

I want to be clear: I'm as clueless about what to do as everybody else. But in almost 60 years on the planet, I've found that when the facts say one thing and the emotions suggest something else, the facts are the better bet. If a proven #1 (i.e., not a backup who has "earned his shot") were available and we got him, I'd say buy Darling out and give Cam another year, limited to 25 games. If I were confident that Ned could waltz in next year and play 55 solid NHL games with Cam on the bench as his backup/mentor, I'd do that, too. But based on the facts as we now understand them, neither of these scenarios match the likelihood of Darling returning to form. Which doesn't preclude keeping Cam. So I will be unsurprised if our goaltending tandem next year is the same as this year's. 

 

When it comes to goaltending, this org is in a crappy situation with no easy answers. From a purely emotional standpoint, I'd like to see Ned win the AHL Championship and get the job next year, with Cam on the bench as his mentor and occasional backup. But when I take emotions out of it, I have to believe that Darling gets a live-in personal trainer and works his @$$ off this summer, and gets the crease in approximately seven-game increments to start the year, with Cam as backup and Ned in the wings if waiving/buying out Darling becomes the obvious path. 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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7 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

So I will be unsurprised if our goaltending tandem next year is that same as this year's. 

Exactly and I thought you captured the dilemma for management perfectly. I suspect Cam won't be back, not because he doesn't deserve the backup job but because of all the  circumstances surrounding contracts and  prospects and even possible signings and trades. Cam could be back and that wouldn't disappointment me but I don't see this tandem being back. I just don't have a clue how the committee will vote on this,

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Taking a closer look at Ned's season (rankings are among AHL goalies with greater than 1380 minutes played):

Record:  31-12-5 with 5 shutouts. Very nice!

GAA:  2.55, 19th

Save %:  .903, 36th

 

Chex lead the league in scoring with 250 goals.  How much has that factored into Ned's nice W-L record?  Based on just his stats, because I haven't seen him play much, seems like it would be irresponsible for the Canes to place too much stock in Ned for our goalie needs at this point.  He's still only 22 years old, and maybe somewhere down the line, but I'd like to see an AHL save% higher than recent Ward numbers before counting on too much help from Ned.

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1 hour ago, LakeLivin said:

Taking a closer look at Ned's season (rankings are among AHL goalies with greater than 1380 minutes played):

Record:  31-12-5 with 5 shutouts. Very nice!

GAA:  2.55, 19th

Save %:  .903, 36th

 

Chex lead the league in scoring with 250 goals.  How much has that factored into Ned's nice W-L record?  Based on just his stats, because I haven't seen him play much, seems like it would be irresponsible for the Canes to place too much stock in Ned for our goalie needs at this point.  He's still only 22 years old, and maybe somewhere down the line, but I'd like to see an AHL save% higher than recent Ward numbers before counting on too much help from Ned.

But how much of his GAA was due to the fact that the Chex had a big lead and the other team was pressing to make it respectable while the Chex D was somewhat backing off. Much like passing/rushing stats in football, when one team has a big lead the other stops running making the 1st teams D look like a great run D.

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8 hours ago, Derailed75 said:

But how much of his GAA was due to the fact that the Chex had a big lead and the other team was pressing to make it respectable while the Chex D was somewhat backing off. Much like passing/rushing stats in football, when one team has a big lead the other stops running making the 1st teams D look like a great run D.

I could see possibly a little bit.  But the Chex are 4th of 8 in their division, and it's not like they were regularly blowing out other teams all year.  I'd be surprised if that was a dynamic that moved the needle enough to effect Ned's save percentage all that much.

Edited by LakeLivin

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I think a whole lot of how much/whether Ned advances in the depth chart will hinge on his playoff performance for the Chex. Let's not forget that he got a look last year and stopped all 17 shots he faced against a pretty good team (CBJ). Ridiculously small sample size yes, but the fact that he got the call and responded well is what I find most important. If a guy can respond well under pressure, particularly while still young, THAT'S a guy I want to move forward with. What Pesce and Slavin have already done in neutralizing some of the top players in the league... the year TVR had... Aho and TT and McGinn and Fleury (and McKeown and Zeke and Wallmark) taking the next step... those are the indicators that matter most to me, especially with young guys. If they have the mettle to respond, the numbers will come. If they don't, all the chances in the world are unlikely to make a damn bit of difference (see Ryan Murphy, Drayson Bowman, Chris Terry... you know the list.)  

 

BP has an amazing record of mentoring young players, and that's one reason I'm such a big supporter. He also said early and often that he intended to use his hammer, and while it's conjecture up to a point, when you look at the last four years it is easy to imagine that PK was close to a deal to sell the team upon BP's hiring. Then his kids sued him, claiming he used funds borrowed from them on the team and never repaid them.

 

Nothing puts the kibosh on a deal - or even finding potential suitors - than pending litigation. So (again, connecting the dots) that likely put everything on hold, and (by extension) the team and the way that BP wanted to manage his players in a holding pattern.

 

The risks are obvious: Peters would have been sitting guys when (1) the yutes were not ready to step in (and none were, before this season) and (2) there was no money to go out and get other players. So I have to think RF and BP agreed to go easy on player accountability until the ownership situation was resolved. When it was, TD (IMO) put his finger on exactly the right button: My educated guess is that he gave Ron (pretty much) carte blanche to get pieces that would get the team into the dance this year. When RF instead played it conservatively, TD knew Ron was not gonna be his GM going forward. This theory is supported by the report that RF's ouster was a done deal a week before it was announced.

 

(Much) shorter: If BP is still here next year, I expect him to have a very strong say in which roster players we acquire this summer, and to (finally) have his hands free to use that hammer we've heard so much about - but have seen precious little of up to now - when players don't do their jobs.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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The Hurricanes had four two-game winning streaks, three three-game winning streaks and one four-game winning streak. Eight of the nine ended with a Darling start, with seven of the eight coming with a switch in net from Ward to Darling, as powerful an indictment of Darling's play as his impossibly abysmal .888 save percentage, worst of 47 qualifying NHL goalies.

That's from the N&O, I knew it was bad but I didn't realize Darling ended roughly 95% of our winning streaks. It got me to say holy *edit* at work and get some coworkers to look at me clearly not doing work. :D

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So unfortunately for keeping goalie options out there open, Antti Raanta signed a 3 year deal with Arizona. So, if we decide we cannot take another chance on the single worst goalie attempting to be a #1 in the NHL last year, any ideas on who is out there?

 

UFA, or maybe a very good back up that a team might trade?

 

 

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Rem, It will really make you feel bad for next season if you look up the list. Pretty much zero UFA worth anything and the RFA's are no different then trying another Darling and thats taking a backup and making him into a starter if the other teams dont want the world for them. That being said some teams have more then 2 NHL level goalies on the roster now and will be cutting/buying out at least one. I have a feeling someone like Mrazek wont want to go to the AHL. There are few older options as UFA but we are talking 32-36yo guys one their last hurrah. Heres the list of what I think the best options are.

 

RFA

Mrazek

Lehner

Hellebuyck

Grubauer

Comrie

Pickard

Saros

 

UFA

Lehtonen

Halak

Bernier

Niemi

Pavalec

and our old friend Khudobin

 

Interestingly enough the Jets 3 goalies are all either RFA or UFA so there is potential we can pull one of their RFA's without giving up the world.

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That's a lot of goalies and the only one I see that we'd both want and would be realistic to acquire is Bernier.

 

Don't get me wrong if the Jets front office gets trashed and makes drunk calls on Hellebuyck let's do it but it aint happening.

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I think we should buy out Darling and take a stab at Pavel Francouz.  Have Ward be back up.  The reason Pvel gets my vote is because there are no bonafide starters via UFA this year and I am not convinced that we can acquire a number one via trade.  Might as well take another risk.  if we got the UFA route then Khudobin is next on the my list after Pavel.

Edited by bluedevil58

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Nashville and Washington have very solid backups that are of the age and performance level to be starting capable.

 

I only see Holtby as a possible only possible trade candidate.  I seriously doubt Washington trades their number 1 goalie to a division foe.  They did trade a center to NJD but I'm guessing WAS didnt expect NJD to be competitive anytime soon. The only way I can see us getting Holtby is if we can convince Washington that it is a solid way for them to keep Carlson.  

 

Holtby would be a solid pickup for Edmonton.  

 

Renne is the other one but i HIGHLY doubt Nashville trades him.  He has 1 year left and if anything will be a highly paid mentor to their young man who can he can split the season with.  Plus they are in the prime Cup years.  Need to keep that rock for the playoffs, if needed.  

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Quote

 

4 minutes ago

Ward: "The unknown is tough to bear."

 

More Ward

Quote

 

9 minutes ago

"It's tough to go back and assess the whole situation and schedule... I don't feel we were reaching the full potential of this hockey team. That's frustrating." —Cam Ward

 

 

 

Quote

 

6 minutes ago

Ward says he still writes “Have Fun” on his sticks before games. Said the fun is still there although joking he did break a few of those “Have Fun” sticks this season when things didn’t go so well.

 

 

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In general I'm a believer in save % as the best goalie metric, but with Cam and some others, managing the puck and the game and settling the troops may be part of the sum being bigger than the parts and his W-L loss record being better than his save %. I still would be fine with Cam as the backup, but Cam AND Darling seems like a bad idea.

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The Big Guy just told me:    

 

"After the win Saturday, his teammates signed Ward’s blocker by the bench as they left the ice as a season-ending memento. They tried the same for Scott Darling but the pads were too porous to retain ink."

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