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FRANCHISE FIRED?!?!?!

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I think LA and Tampa have drafted really well and those guys apparently had a big hand in that. Nashville has drafted a bunch of good D men, then flipped some for offense, especially getting Johansen for Jones, which is the kind of thing we need to do. Not sure about Gilman. Looks like we want a guy with lots of AGM experience in an outside organization but not a former GM necessarily.

 

VERY early read: Dundon wants a major voice on the "team" of decision makers. This makes me think he does not want an ex GM who may not be used to that sort of collaborative decision making. Dundon also wants to beef up the scouting and analytics, which at least a couple of those guys mentioned have been good at. And finally, I think Dundon very much wants someone from the outside and from a winning organization (again, I wonder about Vancouver on that last point). Francis was an insider. Trained at the hip of JR, who ran things for a long time. (Peters, on the other hand, was from an outside, winning organization in Detroit). Collaboration of guys from different winning programs to bring in a new approach.

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3 minutes ago, remkin said:

I think LA and Tampa have drafted really well and those guys apparently had a big hand in that.

 

 

Here's the thing...  We all want #1 draft pick.  But look at The Oil?  What a waste!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You can do better without just #1.  You can do OK under 15.

 

I think Franchise has done "fair," but I'd like to see some new drafting blood.

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Welcome back rem, you've certainly livened things up. Whew, it took me 1/2 a day to read thru that storm of posts. Your cruise certainly got your energy back?

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I can't disagree with the idea that Francis has been "fair" at the draft, primarily because of the first round. Overall I'd give him a "good" but incomplete.  But not great. The team has missed on forwards there, and that's what we could use now.

 

2014: I think Fleury can still be a top pair guy. People just wildly underestimate how hard it is to get that D position down in the NHL at a young age (because or the few exceptions, I think.) Fleury has had his rookie moments, but when one considers how slow he started in the AHL just one season ago, and how quickly he improved, and now plays a solid NHL game as a rookie, this 21 year old is still way too young to judge, and I think he'll be a good one. In 2014 though, we passed on William Nylander now a 60 point guy, Nik Ehlers a 65 point guy, Kevin Fiala, a 50 point guy, Dylan Larkin, and....David Pasternak, who is a star taken at #23 and part of why the Bruins are as good as they are.

 

I get it in 2014 because we had neglected D for too long, but clealry with hind sight in place, we could use a Nylander or Pasternak more than Fleury.

 

2015: Hanifin. We really needed a forward. But at #5, we were too late for McEichel, Marner, and Strome, and many many scouts had Hanifin as a possible #1 overall in a non McEichel year. Sure, we could have done better with Werenski, and maybe Provorov, but the jury is still out on Hanifin who is getting better and is even younger than Fleury. The two forwards we could have picked or even could have traded down and gotten, that oozed talent were Rantanen and Barzal, but there seem to have been some misses in there at forward too, and Barzal had the knock of not playing D. I wonder if the NYI or Colorado were picking #5 if they'd have taken Rantanen or Barzal. We'll never know. I still think Hanifin has more upside.

 

2016 : Bean, then Gauthier. We really really needed a forward. We know that Charlie McAvoy is pretty safely better than Bean is and probably will be, and was available if we needed to go D, so that smarts.  But we don't know how good or bad Bean will be. On the forwards available at #16, I admit its just too early to tell. I do know that there were really good ones above us if we could have traded up. I will also say that it is too early to bail on Gauthier. I think he has the talent and size, but does he have the hockey IQ and even baseline NHL passing ability? The forwards from this draft tearing up the NHL were all taken in the top 1/3, ahead of us.

 

2017: Necas. Way too early to tell, but my guess is that this is the best of his picks, a possible star.

 

But Francis really seems to have done well with later rounds. Aho, is the forward we really needed in the Bean-Gauthier draft. Roy, Foegele, Kuokannen, and Wallmark are the best late round prospects at the moment but there are others out there, and this year's late round picks are way too early to know.

 

So, yes, fair, maybe even good (but not great) is a reasonable drafting grade. But to be fair the teams that drafted some of those better players also did worse in other years. Only the home runs like Pasterak at 23 really turn a team even if other picks miss. But would Boston have picked Pasternak at at #7? There is a lot of luck in hockey but even more in drafting hockey players.

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55 minutes ago, remkin said:

 

But Francis really seems to have done well with later rounds. Aho, is the forward we really needed in the Bean-Gauthier draft. Roy, Foegele, Kuokannen, and Wallmark are the best late round prospects at the moment but there are others out there, and this year's late round picks are way too early to know.

 

 

Right, and that's good.  But the best teams do really well when they make the best of their first rounds. CHI, PIT, TOR, others.  And then then some teams squander them.  EDM.  Should we add CAR to the list?

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20 minutes ago, wxray1 said:

 

Right, and that's good.  But the best teams do really well when they make the best of their first rounds. CHI, PIT, TOR, others.  And then then some teams squander them.  EDM.  Should we add CAR to the list?

I tell you its just too much work to really try to analyze the draft history of the NHL. What number did the team pick? What reign of what GM? What players did they pass on that were there? And so many variables. Like Aho. Sure he was a phenomenal pick. But if we really knew he was that good, we would have picked him in the 21 slot at least, if not in place of Bean at 13. And we really still don't know how good Bean or even Gauthier might still end up being, let alone Necas or other late rounders from this year.

 

Toronto. Well picking Auston Matthews was about as easy as switching a light switch on. That was luck of the lottery ball in a generational year. I'll give them a good one on Mitch Marner although we did not have the option of picking him and they were picking #4, pretty high, and Marner scored over 2 ppg in Juniors. Nylander was a good pick and one we could have had but passed on for Fleury. But the years before: Frederick Gauthier who is 22 with 5 NHL points, Morgan Reily who does score points for a D man, but is a -72. Then in one year: Tyler Biggs (never played an NHL game) and Stuart Percy with 3 points in 12 NHL games and no NHL games in the past 2 years. 

 

It's just too much work to go through every pick of every team, but there are misses almost everywhere. The vaunted Detroit machine had some huge hits years ago, and very few since. Anyways, I'm sure teams have drafted better, but it's a pretty complicated area.

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1 hour ago, coastal_caniac said:

Dundon isn't wasting any time.

Why don't they just tweet who we're not asking for?  Much shorter list, 240 characters.

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Some teams just draft better, and it's likely no more complicated than their staff is just better at it.  That's not luck.  Right now, I give Francis an average grade, and if the report is true that he wouldn't draft a player that he's not seen play, that's not good.  Maybe Dundon needs to look at beefing up our staff. 

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10 minutes ago, Manwolf said:

Why don't they just tweet who we're not asking for?  Much shorter list, 240 characters.

 

Ha, yeah I thought maybe some folks would find this search not that interesting but I'm an oddball.  The Canadian media is making it sound like Beware of Meddling Owner, but what Dundon is actually saying he wants in place makes sense to me, and aligns a lot with what other franchises are doing now.  This is a big deal.  I can't help it, I find it quite interesting.

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3 hours ago, remkin said:

But Francis really seems to have done well with later rounds. Aho, is the forward we really needed in the Bean-Gauthier draft. Roy, Foegele, Kuokannen, and Wallmark are the best late round prospects at the moment but there are others out there, and this year's late round picks are way too early to know.

If you look at Detroit, they were the masters in finding the diamond in the rough in the later rounds, as they rarely had high draft picks due to making the playoffs for 26 straight seasons. Datsyuk was a 6th rounder; Zetterberg a 7th rounder; Filppula and Franzen a 3rd rounder; Helm a 5th rounder. This points to how well their scouts were in finding and evaluating talent that they targeted.

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2 hours ago, remkin said:

 Like Aho. Sure he was a phenomenal pick. But if we really knew he was that good, we would have picked him in the 21 slot at least, if not in place of Bean at 13.

 

 

Aho was taken in the second round of the draft we got Hanifin, not the Bean-Gauthier draft.  That doesn't change your point, of course, which is valid.

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2 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

if the report is true that he wouldn't draft a player that he's not seen play, that's not good.  Maybe Dundon needs to look at beefing up our staff. 

Or maybe RF is a control freak and doesn't trust his subordinates?

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5 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

Some teams just draft better, and it's likely no more complicated than their staff is just better at it.  That's not luck.  Right now, I give Francis an average grade, and if the report is true that he wouldn't draft a player that he's not seen play, that's not good.  Maybe Dundon needs to look at beefing up our staff. 

 

Hasn't he already said he's going to do that?  Gotta believe that will be one of the priorities for the new GM.

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Not to pile on, but the Boston game reminded me of something I'd been meaning to comment on for a while.  Another mistake I think RF made was not re-signing Riley Nash (and I even thought that at the time).  My take is that Nash didn't take RFs initial offer, and instead of negotiating, Franchise cut him loose and went with McClement instead.   I even think that it's possible that RF later realized a few dollars cost him a good player and that effected his salary philosophy going forward.   E.g., I thought Derek Ryan's contract was higher than it could have been, and I wonder if perhaps RF didn't want to make the same mistake and didn't bother over a few hundred thou.  

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Yeah the Riley Nash that never scored more than 25 points in a season here and didn't break 20 points in his first full season with Boston.  Not sure how that's a mistake letting him go.  Good for him though with his 40 point season.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Don't get me wrong, letting Nash go wasn't on the order of not making a hockey trade over the course of 4 years.  But I saw Nash as a very nice 4th liner who could fill in on higher lines as needed when injuries struck.  Still relatively young, able to play wing or center, good 2-way player, decent face off %, hold down the fort on the PK, and with a little potential upside (which he seems to be realizing)..  Basically a good, cheap utility player, a role I think every team needs.  Even ignoring his season this year, I compare the Nash of 2 years ago to McClement and Kruger and think we'd have been much better served with Nash.  

 

In a similar vein, I'd like to keep Nordy.  NOT as a top 9 player, but as a cheap role player who does a lot of little things and still has a bit of upside.  And if players like that get bumped by upcoming yutes, so much the better.  But that hasn't been an issue as of yet. . 

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11 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

Don't get me wrong, letting Nash go Even ignoring his season this year, I compare the Nash of 2 years ago to McClement and Kruger and think we'd have been much better served with Nash.  

 

In a similar vein, I'd like to keep Nordy.  NOT as a top 9 player, but as a cheap role player who does a lot of little things and still has a bit of upside.

I thought Nash would have been a good keep for 4th line center. Good defensively, big enough and willing to check on the boards, and with the upside of challenging for more minutes. He always reminded me of Eric, but trading some skill for drive and passion.

 

Nordy is on my keep list with Dahlbeck. Not because they are great, but because they are committed to the team and willing do what is asked of them. Their skills are easily replaced, but you roll the dice on the next guys drive and commitment. If someone pushes up from below or an upgrade is easily acquired, then great. But I wouldn't expend much effort trying to replace them as they aren't our anchors.

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