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bluedevil58

The Bill Peters Watch

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4 years and no playoffs.  Having a hard time coming up with reasons.  Please take me off of the ledge.  Why should he still be HC?  It's CLEARLY not working out.

 

Good corsi you say?  Great possession team you say?  When is the last time this team made the playoffs?  That's what I say!

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I don't fully put it on BP, though he should shoulder some of the blame. You can only do so much with what you have to work with.

I put it completely on Karmanos. How can RF put even a good product on the ice when you tie RF's hands behind his back?

Don't spend too much of my money Franchise on talent. I don't have that much to spend and I'm a cheapskate.

 

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1 hour ago, bluedevil58 said:

4 years and no playoffs.  Having a hard time coming up with reasons.  Please take me off of the ledge.  Why should he still be HC?  It's CLEARLY not working out.

 

Good corsi you say?  Great possession team you say?  When is the last time this team made the playoffs?  That's what I say!

 

Nah, you're so consistently negative that it's not worth my effort to point out any other perspectives.  But I understand, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.  So if you feel like you have to jump, have a nice trip, and I'm sure we'll see you back here after the Canes turn it around. :howdy:

Edited by LakeLivin
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1 hour ago, bluedevil58 said:

4 years and no playoffs.  Having a hard time coming up with reasons.  Please take me off of the ledge.  Why should he still be HC?  It's CLEARLY not working out.

 

Good corsi you say?  Great possession team you say?  When is the last time this team made the playoffs?  That's what I say!

 

I think you opening this thread is actually a good idea. Now we no longer have to wonder if you are just venting every chance you get or trolling with your redundant opinions about Peters in a bunch of threads. In other words, sharing opinions about Peters and coaching goes in this thread -- and only in this one.

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While I feel that BD58 may not always have the best of approaches, this is and should be a legit conversation.  And if I have to read the typical trade Faulk rant in every thread, I feel like someone bringing up another legit ideology behind the team's woes could be thrown in every now and then.

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Things that leave me scratching my head:

 

The inconsistent effort

Shooting from everywhere 9-40 feet away from the goal

Not shooting from with 8 feet of the net

Lack of physicality

Goaltending

Consistent mistakes by Faulk

Special Teams

 

What of this is on BP?  Holding dudes accountable, I can buy that and it doesnt seem to happen.  If we arent willing to bring up Checkers, unless its an injury, it would be hard to have any teeth in holding dudes accountable.  BPs system is one of you cant score unless you shoot, no matter how bad.  The trend of forcing a pass instead of taking a good shot?  Is that on the players or BP's system to try to get a goalie out of position?  

 

Edited by gocanes0506

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This is hard for me. I can see arguments on both sides. To me it boils down to a chicken or the egg situation. Is he really not that good? or was he not given the tools to succeed? 

Has he not gotten the most out of the players he has? or Is he squeezing blood from a turnip? Unfortunately in these situations, most of the time you don't know the answer til after the fact when a decision has already been made to release the coach, or change the player landscape. 

Me personally I think reality is probably somewhere in between. He's a "good" coach. Maybe not great. I think he has the right amount of intensity in terms of emotion. I'm not sure what his system looks like when it is working. Maybe his obsession with puck possession is detrimental sometimes. It's clearly not the only thing that matters. Then when I look at the players they've surrounded him with....I love Jordan. I love his game. He is a great player that most teams would love to have him. Jordan was a "luxury" third liner when he played for Pitt. He is just not a prototypical 1C. Skinner - streaky but has alot of skill. He never really had a "great" D or "great" tending to rely on. Not a ton of other mentionables to speak of. Again, the situation is not black or white. 

 

The $1,000,000 Q is, could another coach that is available get more out of this team.

Edited by sleekfeeder
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I'll point this out, only because it is relevant and the NHL Network discussed it after our loss.

Gallant (he himself a cast-off; bet the Panthers are kicking themselves now!)  has a team of supposed cast-offs and has them playing hard pretty much every shift.

The NHL Network made the comment that on the Knights, no one complains about ice time and that there are no egos.

When Fleury went down, Subban carried the load. When Subban went down, it was next goalie up (well actually 2 since they had two AHLers backstopping them).

They also mentioned how hard their forwards back-checked us Sunday. Getting back to locked us down.

The team is committed and that comes from the coaches.

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7 minutes ago, hopper915 said:

I'll point this out, only because it is relevant and the NHL Network discussed it after our loss.

Gallant (he himself a cast-off; bet the Panthers are kicking themselves now!)  has a team of supposed cast-offs and has them playing hard pretty much every shift.

The NHL Network made the comment that on the Knights, no one complains about ice time and that there are no egos.

When Fleury went down, Subban carried the load. When Subban went down, it was next goalie up (well actually 2 since they had two AHLers backstopping them).

They also mentioned how hard their forwards back-checked us Sunday. Getting back to locked us down.

The team is committed and that comes from the coaches.

Good post.  Sounds like our team is not committed.  The tough thing to decide is if it is the players or the coach.  I don't want another Gallant or Lavi situation to happen here.  I think BP has lost the team though.  Hence why they show up 1 out of every 3 games or so.  Not sure about last night.  That soft goal really deflated the team.  I wouldn't say they played bad but they also didn't play great.  Never finished a check either.  That stuff falls on the coach.  When the Canes finish checks they win.

 

At the same time, I admit that we are at the bottom in terms of team cap, you get what you pay for.  No reason we shouldn't be bottom of the east.

Edited by bluedevil58

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44 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

Never finished a check either.  That stuff falls on the coach.

 

 

Peters has had me scratching my head a time or two (or seven) this season and he has his shortcomings to be sure, but unless he's the one out there on the ice, i don't see how the players finishing or not finishing their checks falls on him.  He asked for better players and outside of Williams didn't get them, and he's called the team out in postgame and given an earful or two on the bench - no telling what's happening behind closed doors.  I do think he needs to bring down the hammer and sit a couple players who are mailing it in (people may be tired of hearing it but i do think two of the biggest culprits are wearing letters), but beyond that i'm not sure what he can physically do to make them finish their checks.

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43 minutes ago, caniac-1-1 said:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned 'clean drinking water'.

 

 

But can't buy his daughter a nice pair of pants to keep her from looking like a pauper.

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2 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

  I think BP has lost the team though.  Hence why they show up 1 out of every 3 games or so.  Not sure about last night.  That soft goal really deflated the team.  I wouldn't say they played bad but they also didn't play great.  Never finished a check either.  That stuff falls on the coach.  When the Canes finish checks they win.

 

At the same time, I admit that we are at the bottom in terms of team cap, you get what you pay for.  No reason we shouldn't be bottom of the east.

I fail to see how the highlighted items fall on the coach. The team is not high school players that need to be coached on catching a puck or on how to check. These are professionals that need to compete and put in an honest effort.  Pitt has Crosby, Malkin, Kessel  and a cast of others. The same goes for most teams as well, they all have at least one to two high end players. Our team is not scary, just look at the line up on paper. Rask,Ryan PDG, McGinn . They may have a place but certainly not 2nd/third line. I like McGinn but he is not 2nd line material 7 goals 18 points. IMO we are two centers a winger and a goalie away from being a scary team. Is Aho and Necas those centers? We don't know, Necas isn't proven and Aho hasn't been in the center slot. With that said how is a lack of talent the coaches fault? That falls on the GM and Owner. We all know how we got here,thanks PK but going forward if there is no improvement on talent it clearly falls on TD and RF. If nothing changes on a talent perspective you could go through 10 coaches without a change in performance. BD,relate it to a business....you can try to sell your *edit* off but if you don't have a product to sell you are not going to succeed. TD spoke all the right words now it is up to him to give his organization the resources needed  to get the job done. I can see RF and TD butting heads in the near future. TD supposedly is impatient and if RF cannot make trades or UFA acquisitions in the off season to get it done regardless of an open check book then look for TD to bring in his own guys in the future. Regardless of an open checkbook it's going to be difficult. Many players are due new contracts and the Cap will rise significantly without the addition of the needed assets.The key may be on who gets extended or who gets traded to allow for $ to get the required assets. This is where TD may become impatient. Will the coach get fired? Possibly as it is an easy way out but it doesn't addressed the real issue.

Edited by slapshot02
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Good discussion. I hope it stays like that. This is a fair topic. I'm thinking I heard that Peters is the or the second longest tenured coach that has not made the playoffs. It has been mentioned by several respectable writers in the press that this is a must make year for him. Fair topic. And I agree with Whaler. Now we keep this Peter's discussion here. That alone is worth this thread.

 

At some point, it is just the way of things and even good coaches have to move on in the face of lack of actual winning.

 

When I think of Gallant I actually think of something else. I think of how Florida gave up on him and are now watching him kill it in Vegas, from outside the playoffs.

 

I personally think that Peters is going to be a long time NHL coach with good results. If he leaves here, he goes on to success somewhere else.  But can this team stay with him? How long?

 

One thing I am looking at is Faulk and Skinner. Peters seems unable to get them to "play the right way". Faulk at all and Skinner lately. And these are 2/3 lettered leaders who have or could have big impacts on games plus or minus.

 

On the other side is goalies. Peters cannot control our crappy goaltending. If there is one reason to give him a long leash it's that Francis cannot, for the life of him, solve our goaltending problem.

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I'll just add what no one yet has: Peters deserves to be here because when the whole team plays his system, it wins.

 

The idea a coach can motivate players, however, is a lot of malarkey. If a player's personal pride in being an NHLer, his desire to give his team's fans a winner and to get his name on the Cup, and the ridiculous sum of money he is being paid to live the dream aren't enough to convince him to play the way that HIS BOSS, the coach, is telling him to, nothing the coach can say or do will change that. I believe BP's comment about passengers the other night was an expression of his total exasperation with the fact that every night we seem to have two or three three guys gliding around out there like Eric Staal and HWSNBN.

 

I have long maintained that this team doesn't need "that one piece." Would getting it be nice? Absolutely, no question about it. But Vegas has proven something I've said consistently on these boards for a very long time: You can assemble any group of players that has gotten to the NHL level and - provided that, to a man - they are fully committed to playing an effective system and are leaving it all out there every night, they will win.

 

We already know BP's system is effective. When everybody plays it, the defense is suffocating, breakouts happen at a breakneck pace, and the forecheck is a joy to watch. The two problems we have here - crappy goaltending and weak/unimpassioned team leadership - have persisted across eight years and three coaching changes, and a new coach isn't going to make them go away.

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I'll just add what no one yet has: Peters deserves to be here because when the whole team plays his system, it wins.

 

The idea a coach can motivate players, however, is a lot of malarkey. If a player's personal pride in being an NHLer, his desire to give his team's fans a winner and to get his name on the Cup, and the ridiculous sum of money he is being paid to live the dream aren't enough to convince him to play the way that HIS BOSS, the coach, is telling him to, nothing the coach can say or do will change that. 

This.  I agree with Topshelf 100% on this.

 

While people can talk about the talent the Wings had for years (and rightly so) the one thing you used to never see from them was a partial effort.  I think this is also on the scouts and the farm teams to identify in our draftees and developing players.  What do I mean?  When Hanifin was selected we were told then "how much compete" he had.  I believe the reason we heard that in part was because it had been identified the current team (that year) had a large absence of compete.  Look at who was on the team then and who still is and you can see not a lot has changed if "compete" was a shortcoming then.

 

To make matters worse we lost players for years like Dennis Seidenberg who gave 100% every shift and somehow we seemed to hang on to and accumulate hangers on that would glide up and down the ice.   Kevin Adams? Craig Adams?  These are guys you need on your team.  At EVERY position.  I don't mean the talent of Kevin Adams I mean the DRIVE TO WIN of Kevin Adams, the heart of Glenn Wesley.

 

If I have identified one thing, its our team is made up chiefly of PEOPLE THAT WANT THEIR PAYROLL CHECK.  The shortcoming is no longer do we have an abundance of the heart of Scott Walker,  Roddy, or little  A. Irbe?  I think Cam Ward has heart, J. Willie for sure.  Once I get past them I am only guessing as I certainly don't see it consistently on the ice to be able to identify it absolutely from my seat.    

 

I don't think this is a coaching problem.  I think you can actually make the argument that BP has gotten miles from 4 years of lack of offensive talent and youngsters trying to look pretty on the ice.  We need more people that go down to block a puck, obstruct the other goalies vision and make the other team pay for running our own goalie.  You cant coach heart, but you can coach talent.  Considering this I would say BP has done an outstanding job as we are low in mature talent and we certainly lack heart.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, one-timer said:

Considering this I would say BP has done an outstanding job as we are low in mature talent and we certainly lack heart.

 

Guys with ample talent and total heart:

Willy, Pesce, Slavin, Stempniak, McGinn, Nordstrom, TVR and (lately) Lindholm.

 

Guys with ridiculous talent and ample heart:

Aho, TT, Skinner, Fleury, Hanifin.

 

Steady Eddies you want/have to keep around:

Staal, Cam* 

 

Expendables, due to lacking enough of one or both (talent/heart) that they hurt more than they help:

Jooris, PDG, Kruger, Ryan, Faulk, and (much as it pains me to say it), Rask. If he can't turn it around by the end of the season, Scott Darling should be on this list as well.

 

The elephant in the room when folks simply say "bring up the AHLers" is waivers. Of the list immediately above, I see only Faulk and Rask bringing back much of value at the moment, and only if the trading partner agrees that a change of scene might wake them up. But that doesn't mean you want to send the others down and let someone claim them off waivers. (I'd actually be fine with that for Jooris and PDG, neither of whom are bringing diddly nor seem all that worried about it.) 

 

I do think Ryan has heart, but anywhere above the fourth line, he is seriously over-slotted. So maybe you package Kruger, Faulk, and Rask to bring back a good piece (coughJVRcough). Then you've created two roster slots for new AHL blood--provided, of course, it's being pumped through a HEART.

 

*HOWEVER: at some point you have to clean out the skeletons and break with the past. Cam, while a "company man" is mediocre. Jordan can't help that he shares his brother's last name, but he does... and the fact that he has the personality of Al Gore (only more so) doesn't help. 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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We don't have a group of players that hate losing bad enough.  Do what you want with the coach, but until that changes, the results will be similar.  Peters may not be the guy, but I see way too many players that have accepted losing for way too long, and some have letters on their jerseys.

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The thing is that the will to compete and wanting to do what it takes and wanting to be here were the things Francis listed at the very top of his list of attributes he wanted in a player. Ahead of speed. Ahead of size. And probably ahead of even ability. So if he's not seeing that from guys, what is he doing about it?

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2 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I'll just add what no one yet has: Peters deserves to be here because when the whole team plays his system, it wins.

 

The idea a coach can motivate players, however, is a lot of malarkey. If a player's personal pride in being an NHLer, his desire to give his team's fans a winner and to get his name on the Cup, and the ridiculous sum of money he is being paid to live the dream aren't enough to convince him to play the way that HIS BOSS, the coach, is telling him to, nothing the coach can say or do will change that. I believe BP's comment about passengers the other night was an expression of his total exasperation with the fact that every night we seem to have two or three three guys gliding around out there like Eric Staal and HWSNBN.

 

I have long maintained that this team doesn't need "that one piece." Would getting it be nice? Absolutely, no question about it. But Vegas has proven something I've said consistently on these boards for a very long time: You can assemble any group of players that has gotten to the NHL level and - provided that, to a man - they are fully committed to playing an effective system and are leaving it all out there every night, they will win.

 

We already know BP's system is effective. When everybody plays it, the defense is suffocating, breakouts happen at a breakneck pace, and the forecheck is a joy to watch. The two problems we have here - crappy goaltending and weak/unimpassioned team leadership - have persisted across eight years and three coaching changes, and a new coach isn't going to make them go away.

Here here! https://tenor.com/view/toast-to-you-cheers-gif-5645509. The idea a coach can motivate players, however, is a lot of malarkey.(INDEED)  What more proof do you need than Vegas? A bunch of castoffs that are so proud to be playing NHL hockey and getting appropriate minutes for their level of play. They are excited to play and prove they are NHL caliber that they go 100% 100% of the time. This is not coached,it is pride.Just because BP isn't throwing Tortorella tantrums doesn't mean he isn't calling out the teams ineffectiveness. He's discussed the teams lack of net front presence, team passengers, team not executing, teams lack of playing 60 mins,lack of fore check, had meetings with goalie coach and goalie,What is the coach supposed to do? His simple comment that winning hurts hit it right on the head. The team isn't committed to hurt every night.. They give 100% one night and it hurts and they then hope the next game  they can glide without enduring the pain and sneak out a victory  Their lack of commitment currently out weighs the desire to succeed. Everyone is hoping the other guy will put out the effort and do enough to win. This is what JWilly is referring to when he states "something stinks". He doesn't understand the teams lack of commitment. Believe me if BP had options at his disposal for moving players he would of done so.

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