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Rating the Players, End of Season, Who to Keep?

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32 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

You know this because you've polled those teams?

 

Really not trying to be snarky here, Derailed, but GMs look at the same numbers we all do. Pinning an A or a C on a guy only makes him a leader in the eyes of clueless broadcasters from other teams. Think about what the Canes' own broadcasters have been saying about Faulk, most notably Tripp: "He has to be better." 

 

That is about as far as a guy whose check is signed by the org dares go. And Tripp went there repeatedly this season. 

 

When it comes down to improving this team, the first step is getting rid of chronic liabilities. By any measure, Hanifin and Faulk are our most glaring liabilities on D. If a change of scene turns them into world-beaters, I'm fine with that. But I've seen enough of both in a Canes' uni to know it ain't happening here.

I agree that he needs to be gone and said as much, I'm just mentioning what I heard from other broadcast teams when watching the games. I also said that they were not other GM'S talking. I'm just saying that we may under value players on the teams we follow. I have seen it in every sport I watch for one reason or another a player or 2 becomes the scapegoat for a poor run and the stigma never leaves.

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29 minutes ago, Derailed75 said:

I'm just saying that we may under value players on the teams we follow.

I agree 100 percent, and didn't miss that you're done with Faulk, too. I guess my struggle is when people are either willfully blind to truly abysmal play, and/or blame it on things beyond the subject player's control, even when other players are able to overcome the same obstacles.

 

For all the complaining about Darling - and I will be the absolute last guy to dispute that he was not good - I will nonetheless bet right here that if I were to say, "Hanifin and Faulk's disappearing acts in the D end didn't help," somebody else would say, "But Cam dealt with it. That's on Darling." And they'd be right! Part of a keeper's job is bailing out his D. Which is why I'd never make that statement about Faulk and Hanifin in the first place, relative to Darling's performance. 

 

Yet when some of us point out that all the other D on this team were able to be defensively responsible first - knowing when and when not to join the rush, pinch in the o-zone, etc. - Faulk and Hanifin's serially bad plus-minus suddenly becomes a "misleading stat," or "should be weighed against their [completely average, by the way] offensive contributions."

 

Faulk has shown in the past that he has great offensive potential. Hanifin has shown in flashes that he has it, too. But the same is true of their D work; both can do it; I've seen it. They simply don't, on anything like a consistent basis. So at some point an org has to decide what it values more: solid defensive play or the hope that these players will become such potent offensive forces that their irresponsibility on the back end isn't an issue.

 

It's my contention that no team can afford D-zone irresponsibility, ever. The majority of stellar offensive D men are also D-zone studs for a reason: Success in one end feeds success in the other. Defensive stops often result in the puck in the other team's net. But Hanifin nor Faulk seem to "get" this, and some fans see these two absolutely intertwined aspects of the game as separate, so they are willing to sacrifice D-first commitment for O-zone potential.

 

I'm not one of them.

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Completely ignores Realm's point that everybody else defends just fine. 

 

Hanifin, Slavin, and Pesce all became fixtures on the Canes' blue line in 2015-16. Over those three seasons:

 

Slavin: +25

Pesce: +10

Hanifin: - 53

 

(So now of course you'll switch back to the meaninglessness of +/-.)

 

Lol you're the one who said you're a loud critic of +/- stats, until it comes to people you don't like.

 

1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

You know this because you've polled those teams?

 

Really not trying to be snarky here, Derailed, but GMs look at the same numbers we all do. Pinning an A or a C on a guy only makes him a leader in the eyes of clueless broadcasters from other teams. Think about what the Canes' own broadcasters have been saying about Faulk, most notably Tripp: "He has to be better." 

 

That is about as far as a guy whose check is signed by the org dares go. And Tripp went there repeatedly this season. 

 

When it comes down to improving this team, the first step is getting rid of chronic liabilities. By any measure, Hanifin and Faulk are our most glaring liabilities on D. If a change of scene turns them into world-beaters, I'm fine with that. But I've seen enough of both in a Canes' uni to know it ain't happening here.

 

I've read other team's boards, and I've seen fans still see some value in Faulk and Hanifin.  Also, when you look at when teams trade the best player, they look for younger players with upside.  I look no further than the Ryan O'Reilly trade itself.  He was traded for a young blueliner, two B-level prospects, and a 2nd round pick.  We can offer that same package with Hanifin/Gauthier/McGinn/2nd.  

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10 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I agree 100 percent, and didn't miss that you're done with Faulk, too. I guess my struggle is when people are either willfully blind to truly abysmal play, and/or blame it on things beyond the subject player's control, even when other players are able to overcome the same obstacles.

 

 

Aw, I like you too Top.

 

I have gone over this too many times with you to do this again, but I started posting in this thread agreeing with you about trading Faulk, then you started arguing with me over his trade value.  I can't win.

Edited by PenaltyKiller17

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Neither one of them has trade value that will bring back a decent player imo... dump for what you can get and move on, they are not getting the job done....

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20 minutes ago, PamlicoPuck said:

Neither one of them has trade value that will bring back a decent player imo... dump for what you can get and move on, they are not getting the job done....

Just by listening to other teams broadcast and reading a few other teams boards I disagree, they still have trade value and a decent amount. At this point we dont need to bring back a super star, we just need to change the culture and swapping one or both of those guys while bringing someone of equal value and or bringing a few guys up will do that.

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I want to bring up a point about Faulk that other teams see and mention. During one of the Caps games Faulk made a lazy play in the neutral zone that led to a score, it was a complete screw up on his part. Within a shift or 2 he won a board battle and made a all-star caliber 2 line pass to Skinner who then had a break away. For at least then next 2 minutes the Caps announcer would not stop talking about that pass and his play. From our end the difference was that whoever was in our goal didnt stop the breakaway and Grubauer( I think, might have been Holtby) did. Now either way both of those plays were on Faulk good and bad, but for the first part of the season neither Cam nor Darling were able to stop breakaways while it seemed every goalie (back up or not ) we played against did unless it was Aho on the break and even he had a rough first 20 games or so.

 

 The point in all this is we dont forget about his mistake it cost a goal but other teams and FO personnel remember that pass and see that their "finishers" would have scored. He has trade value and more then most on this board think.

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10 minutes ago, Derailed75 said:

I want to bring up a point about Faulk that other teams see and mention. During one of the Caps games Faulk made a lazy play in the neutral zone that led to a score, it was a complete screw up on his part. Within a shift or 2 he won a board battle and made a all-star caliber 2 line pass to Skinner who then had a break away. For at least then next 2 minutes the Caps announcer would not stop talking about that pass and his play. From our end the difference was that whoever was in our goal didnt stop the breakaway and Grubauer( I think, might have been Holtby) did. Now either way both of those plays were on Faulk good and bad, but for the first part of the season neither Cam nor Darling were able to stop breakaways while it seemed every goalie (back up or not ) we played against did unless it was Aho on the break and even he had a rough first 20 games or so.

 

 The point in all this is we dont forget about his mistake it cost a goal but other teams and FO personnel remember that pass and see that their "finishers" would have scored. He has trade value and more then most on this board think.

 

You'll learn it's not worth arguing, and we're just "willfully blind to his abysmal play, and/or blame it on things beyond subject player's control, even when other players are able to overcome the same obstacles."  You can make all the sense in the world, he's only as good as his +/-.

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36 minutes ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

 

You'll learn it's not worth arguing, and we're just "willfully blind to his abysmal play, and/or blame it on things beyond subject player's control, even when other players are able to overcome the same obstacles."  You can make all the sense in the world, he's only as good as his +/-.

Not arguing I like the conversation just putting out my opinion. The other part of this I dont think anyone in here has mentioned is that the world of professional sports GM, scouts, and coaches is all ego driven and when they see a guy with talent that is not fulfilling it they always think they can do better then the last GM and or coach did with him. There is no question that both Faulk and Hanifin have talent, they question the rest of the NHL will want to know is whether or not their performance was on them or on the coach/staff/scheme/ player around them. The new GM (or round table) will just have to find that coach or GM that thinks he can turn them around. Theres also no question some player need a change of scenery and I think thats the deal with at least Faulk. 

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If I am sitting in the GM's chair, I put out there that I am willing to move some D and start listening to offer. Anything that comes in for Slavin, Pesce, TVR I glance at and if I don't fall out of my chair thinking someone is getting fired for making me this offer it goes in file 13. Before the draft I take a look at all offers on Faulk and pull the trigger on the best offer. Any offers on Hanifin or other prospects I negotiate for fair value or I keep them. I am not talking of going Crazy Joe here, just a good hockey trade everyone should feel like they gave up a little more than they wanted.

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1 hour ago, Derailed75 said:

Not arguing I like the conversation just putting out my opinion. The other part of this I dont think anyone in here has mentioned is that the world of professional sports GM, scouts, and coaches is all ego driven and when they see a guy with talent that is not fulfilling it they always think they can do better then the last GM and or coach did with him. There is no question that both Faulk and Hanifin have talent, they question the rest of the NHL will want to know is whether or not their performance was on them or on the coach/staff/scheme/ player around them. The new GM (or round table) will just have to find that coach or GM that thinks he can turn them around. Theres also no question some player need a change of scenery and I think thats the deal with at least Faulk. 

 

You are speaking to the choir sir.  Trust me, I've made these exact points in the past, but I get called a Faulk apologist.  This conversation will take you in circles.  Let's just see how the summer goes.  As I've said before, my goal is to keep one of Faulk/Hanifin.  Here's my ideal scenario:

 

Trade Rask/Bean/1st for O'Reilly

Trade Faulk for Holtby

Sign JVR

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1 minute ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

 

You are speaking to the choir sir.  Trust me, I've made these exact points in the past, but I get called a Faulk apologist.  This conversation will take you in circles.  Let's just see how the summer goes.  As I've said before, my goal is to keep one of Faulk/Hanifin.  Here's my ideal scenario:

 

Trade Rask/Bean/1st for O'Reilly

Trade Faulk for Holtby

Sign JVR

I will see that and raise you a grizzled vet Dman in the likes of Hainsey. Im not above bringing up yutes but the D corp is stripped of anyone with a lot of experience sans TVR and while he was really good this year I dont think he sees himself as a vocal leader. We need a JWilly on the D. 

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6 hours ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

Lol you're the one who said you're a loud critic of +/- stats, until it comes to people you don't like.

Dude, really, stop with the lies. I said a year or two of bad +/- is often an outlier. Hanifin has three straight not just bad but abysmal years, while all others (save one) have been just fine.

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5 hours ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

 

Aw, I like you too Top.

 

I have gone over this too many times with you to do this again, but I started posting in this thread agreeing with you about trading Faulk, then you started arguing with me over his trade value.  I can't win.

We're not arguing, we're discussing :)

 

I think he alone doesn't bring back a top-six forward or bonafide keeper. I think with Hanifin he brings that back and then some. You don't see it that way. But I never complained that you were "arguing." 

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6 hours ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

 

Lol you're the one who said you're a loud critic of +/- stats, until it comes to people you don't like.

 

 

I've read other team's boards, and I've seen fans still see some value in Faulk and Hanifin.  Also, when you look at when teams trade the best player, they look for younger players with upside.  I look no further than the Ryan O'Reilly trade itself.  He was traded for a young blueliner, two B-level prospects, and a 2nd round pick.  We can offer that same package with Hanifin/Gauthier/McGinn/2nd.  

McGinn is not a prospect. He's a roster player by any definition of that term, and a heart-and-soul guy to boot.

 

Maybe not looking further than the O'Reilly trade is the issue. 

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4 hours ago, Derailed75 said:

The other part of this I dont think anyone in here has mentioned is that the world of professional sports GM, scouts, and coaches is all ego driven and when they see a guy with talent that is not fulfilling it they always think they can do better then the last GM and or coach did with him.

This is exactly why some of us think Faulk (and Hanifin) need a change of scene. It's the way you sell the deal, in fact, as I've mentioned too many times already.

 

5 hours ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

You can make all the sense in the world, he's only as good as his +/-.

Actually I've been pointing to their giveaways as well, the total of which for Faulk and Hanifin is higher than the total of all other Canes D combined. But I guess giveaways by D-men are a "meaningless stat" too!

 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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On 4/11/2018 at 1:41 PM, remkin said:

5: Uber core: do not trade ever:

4: Core: Trade only for overpayment.

3: Good player, but tradeable for fair value.

2: Some value, but should be traded.

1: Needs to go.

 

Getting back to the OP.  I will do mine based only on what I think we should do this offseason.  i will change my ranking slightly.

 

6: Do not trade ever - NO ONE!  Anyone is tradeable for the right price.  

5: Uber core: do not trade unless for a king's ransom (in reality not going to happen) - Aho, Slavin 

4: Core: Trade only for overpayment - Pesce, Staal, Turbo, Fleury, Hanifan (still only 21), Zykov

3: Good player, but tradeable for fair value - Williams, TVR, McGinn, Dahlbeck, Skinner, Faulk (more value in trade than we think, IMO), PDG

2: Some value, but should be traded or free to go elsewhere - Darling, Nordstrom, Ward, Ryan

1: Needs to go - Krueger (He's still in the minors)

 

I'm sure I've missed a few..

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30 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

McGinn is not a prospect. He's a roster player by any definition of that term, and a heart-and-soul guy to boot.

 

Maybe not looking further than the O'Reilly trade is the issue. 

 

Only reason I mention O'Reilly is because I feel he's the biggest name we have a shot of obtaining.  I don't know how realistic JT or Seguin would be.  I'd love Statsny here, but TD said he doesn't want to go the UFA route.  Joe Thornton is working against father time.  I'd love to have Duchene, but you've said he's too much like Jordan (for some reason).  I can't think of too many more top forwards that could be available.  So yes, I've looked past ROR, I just think he fits best here.

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30 minutes ago, ironman87 said:

 

Getting back to the OP.  I will do mine based only on what I think we should do this offseason.  i will change my ranking slightly.

 

6: Do not trade ever - NO ONE!  Anyone is tradeable for the right price.  

5: Uber core: do not trade unless for a king's ransom (in reality not going to happen) - Aho, Slavin 

4: Core: Trade only for overpayment - Pesce, Staal, Turbo, Fleury, Hanifan (still only 21), Zykov

3: Good player, but tradeable for fair value - Williams, TVR, McGinn, Dahlbeck, Skinner, Faulk (more value in trade than we think, IMO), PDG

2: Some value, but should be traded or free to go elsewhere - Darling, Nordstrom, Ward, Ryan

1: Needs to go - Krueger (He's still in the minors)

 

I'm sure I've missed a few..

Thanks ironman, I was looking to get some other opinions on the various rankings.

 

I forgot Kruger in my list since he's buried in Charlotte, but I also think he should go. I never really wanted him here to begin with.  I think that really good teams get some production from their 4th line, especially in the playoffs. If one team's 4th line dominates the other team's 4th line, that creates match up problems too. Sure, it's not a massive thing, but if one team's 4th line generates just say 12 more goals in a season, that will translate into actual wins and points. Kruger and Nordstrom, while nice defensive players who do a lot of little things, just do not score, at all. Give me a PDG or a yute from Charlotte if they have scoring upside over that.

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30 minutes ago, PenaltyKiller17 said:

I'd love to have Duchene, but you've said he's too much like Jordan (for some reason). 

Just for clarity, I think I was comparing the two from opposite POVs: Duchene is all offense no D, Jordan is all D and little O. But I'm not sure. I'm almost 60 :)

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54 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Just for clarity, I think I was comparing the two from opposite POVs: Duchene is all offense no D, Jordan is all D and little O. But I'm not sure. I'm almost 60 :)

Just wait, it gets better with time, or actually, it doesn't matter anymore.  70+ and counting.  But I'm not sure.:blink:

 

Edited by WilmingtonCaniac
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