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Trade- Jeff Skinner to Buffalo

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13 hours ago, Pkling40 said:

The winds of change -sometimes have to level things- can anyone recall a “partial” rebuild ever working? Let’s compare the Hurricanes to a house renovation- the “bones” have to be there or you level the place and rebuild on the land- starting with the foundation-How many years have we been hearing the Canes are in a rebuild mode... we weren’t rebuilding a darn thing what we were doing was the wishing and hoping and begging for the team to be better to the point as fans that we expected to lose ??‍♀️

GO CANES

 

Someone mentioned the Cubs.  I watched the Cubs do a partial rebuild for 100 years.  OK, 45 years.  My dad and his father watched the other.

 

The Cubs went through a shock and awe moment with a new owner, and at first it was painful.  Then, the promised land.  Money does have to spent, however, and the Cubs, through the luck of cable TV and neighborhood gentrification, had it coming in droves.  Canes?  Not so much. 

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13 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

This one just really stings. 

I hear ya, I've been one of Jeff's biggest fans, and the two years prior to this one only boosted my belief in him. The way he was used last year was simply inexplicable to anyone who understands hockey, especially on a goal-starved team.

 

The return on this trade, the timing of it, and the team's refusal to even open negotiations on an extension with Jeff make two things clear: (1) Roddy didn't want him on his roster or even in camp, and (2) TD/DW have handed Rod the reins. If that's not a wake-up call to the players who remain, when this org has done the opposite for over a decade (GMs dictating who plays and who doesn't, instead of coaches) I don't know what will.

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14 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

(1) Roddy didn't want him on his roster or even in camp, and (2) TD/DW have handed Rod the reins.

 

I agree with you on everything but this. In a recent interview Brindy indicated that Dundon is involved in every decision and added will see how that works ut.

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I was gone for a few days, and came back to this news. On the surface, this looks like a bad trade. I guess this just shows how much Skinner was unwanted, and the managers and coaches thought Skinner was unwilling or unable to play a 2 way game. At least we got something. 

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1 hour ago, wxray1 said:

 

Someone mentioned the Cubs.  I watched the Cubs do a partial rebuild for 100 years.  OK, 45 years.  My dad and his father watched the other.

 

The Cubs went through a shock and awe moment with a new owner, and at first it was painful.  Then, the promised land.  Money does have to spent, however, and the Cubs, through the luck of cable TV and neighborhood gentrification, had it coming in droves.  Canes?  Not so much. 

Yeah, I don't want to jump on the cheap bandwagon and I won't, at least not yet. But the fact that this deal puts us barely above the cap floor is a little concerning, until one realizes that next week (or prior to camp), when Aho and TT are extended, it will be several millions more above.

 

The wild card (as always, it seems, with this org) is whether the yutes can make the step to the NHL. The difference (except in the cases of Svech and Necas) is that those coming in and/or competing for spots have had at least a year or two in the A (Zeke, Wallmark, Foegele, Saarela, McKeown) and several have been among the league leaders in various categories.

 

Svech and Necas may be all that, a la Skinner in his rookie year, and it does seem like the Committee is counting on it. But even if they struggle, the Canes have prospects who are clearly much better prepared than - and who have skills far beyond those of - the Boychuks and Dalpes and Murphys of the past. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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6 minutes ago, OBXer said:

I agree with you on everything but this. In a recent interview Brindy indicated that Dundon is involved in every decision and added will see how that works ut.

Okay, let's look at that. 

 

If Dundon was the driver on this move, it screams (1) cheap, since they never even asked his price for an extension, and (2) clueless, because keeping Skinner 'til the deadline (at least) was a no brainer, in terms of both the scoring he'd provide while he remained, and the potential return if he was moved at the deadline--assuming his contributions didn't help secure a playoff berth. If we got in with Jeff and he walked at the end of the season, who would have cared? He'd have played out his current deal, and the team would still have had time to get at least a pick or prospect from somebody for the rights to lock him down before he went FA. 

 

So, if Dundon pushed for this now, it indicates to me that he understands neither how much more teams on the brink at the deadline are willing to pay, nor the contribution this player provided in terms of potentially making the dance. And I think TD's too smart for that.

 

Which is why, when I hear "culture change," I think Rod drove this move. I think he thinks he can re-create the culture he pretty much singlehandedly created here as a player, and that he saw Skinner as soft, despite the fact he's come to camp stronger in each of the last three years and has played with more of an edge on the ice. I just think it wasn't edge enough for Mr. Testosterone to look beyond, so he could see the value in Skinner's scoring. All of which is fine and dandy, if Roddy is able to recreate that culture as a coach.

 

But if you're right, and Dundon was the greater influence, it also means our new owner was lying through his teeth on The Fan last week when he said Jeff is a guy he'd be happy to have on the roster.

 

For me, the fact that the move happened so quickly after those comments suggests that Roddy heard them and told Waddell he doesn't want Jeff here--because assuming Skins' agent heard them too, his first move would have been to pick up the phone and ask when they could start talking about Jeff's extension.

 

Total tea-leaf reading, I'll admit. But to have the owner say what he did one minute and the guy moved out the next - for the return they accepted - tells me one of two things is true: Dundon was lying, or someone else on the Committee felt strongly opposed enough to Jeff staying that they insisted he be moved. 

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51 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

For me, the fact that the move happened so quickly after those comments suggests that Roddy heard them and told Waddell he doesn't want Jeff here--because assuming Skins' agent heard them too, his first move would have been to pick up the phone and ask when they could start talking about Jeff's extension

 

Well that's quite a conspiracy theory. That would mean Waddell and Brindy conspired to go against something their new self proclaimed hands on owner said he didn't want.

I'm sure Waddell and Brindy had input but to think the move wasn't approved by Dundon would go against all we have been told about his management style.

That a contract extension was never discussed means they always wanted to trade him. That Dundon said they would be ok with him staying only means at the moment in time a deal hadn't been made.

 

I won't disagree that Brindy may well of wanted him moved Brindy could of gone to Dundon and said Skinner coming back won't work.  I have no idea but it appears the org wanted him gone.

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Okay, let's look at that. 

 

If Dundon was the driver on this move, it screams (1) cheap, since they never even asked his price for an extension, and (2) clueless, because keeping Skinner 'til the deadline (at least) was a no brainer, in terms of both the scoring he'd provide while he remained, and the potential return if he was moved at the deadline--assuming his contributions didn't help secure a playoff berth. If we got in with Jeff and he walked at the end of the season, who would have cared? He'd have played out his current deal, and the team would still have had time to get at least a pick or prospect from somebody for the rights to lock him down before he went FA. 

 

So, if Dundon pushed for this now, it indicates to me that he understands neither how much more teams on the brink at the deadline are willing to pay, nor the contribution this player provided in terms of potentially making the dance. And I think TD's too smart for that.

 

Which is why, when I hear "culture change," I think Rod drove this move. I think he thinks he can re-create the culture he pretty much singlehandedly created here as a player, and that he saw Skinner as soft, despite the fact he's come to camp stronger in each of the last three years and has played with more of an edge on the ice. I just think it wasn't edge enough for Mr. Testosterone to look beyond, so he could see the value in Skinner's scoring. All of which is fine and dandy, if Roddy is able to recreate that culture as a coach.

 

But if you're right, and Dundon was the greater influence, it also means our new owner was lying through his teeth on The Fan last week when he said Jeff is a guy he'd be happy to have on the roster.

 

For me, the fact that the move happened so quickly after those comments suggests that Roddy heard them and told Waddell he doesn't want Jeff here--because assuming Skins' agent heard them too, his first move would have been to pick up the phone and ask when they could start talking about Jeff's extension.

 

Total tea-leaf reading, I'll admit. But to have the owner say what he did one minute and the guy moved out the next - for the return they accepted - tells me one of two things is true: Dundon was lying, or someone else on the Committee felt strongly opposed enough to Jeff staying that they insisted he be moved. 

Wouldn't be the first owner that lied.

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On 8/3/2018 at 9:19 AM, top-shelf-1 said:

Except that he had to okay it. I think he's happy to get a fresh start and the chance to build something with one of the best players in hockey.

Yeah I get it...it was an attempt of humor at the moment. I respect opinions of others and there may be some validity to us needing to part from him. Also I understand he wants/needs a fresh start. From a business standpoint this is a **** ? of a deal and I agree with many that Buffalo took us to the cleaners on it. You know, whatever. It is what it is and we’ll move on. I’ll reserve any further feelings on it after we see how things pan out.

Edited by surfzone365
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2 hours ago, OBXer said:

Well that's quite a conspiracy theory. That would mean Waddell and Brindy conspired to go against something their new self proclaimed hands on owner said he didn't want.

It's not a conspiracy theory at all. If TD's organizational chart works like those in the rest of the business world, Brindy reports to Waddell, and Waddell to TD. We already know TD says things publicly that he maybe should discuss internally first, given the learning curve he's in the midst of negotiating (i.e., this particular business). For example, how much a GM should cost. And a coach.

 

So I don't think it's a stretch to think that if Brindy heard it (or for that matter an advisor, say Cole, did, and alerted him), Brindy would tell Waddell, as you suggest, "This doesn't work for me," Waddell would let Dundon know, and Dundon would say, "Okay, cut him loose."

 

Dundon's tenure so far has done one thing for sure: tied his immediate fortunes as an owner to Brindy and Waddell.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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26 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

It's not a conspiracy theory at all. If TD's organizational chart works like those in the rest of the business world, Brindy reports to Waddell, and Waddell to TD.

 

But what if TD doesn’t run that way?  I feel like Waddell may not have been the GM if TD ran this like everyone else.

 

it also may be that TD doesn’t implement that hierarchy until he knows that those under him understand his process and how he would like decisions to be made. 

 

I’d bet TD runs more of a group discussion when there are issues versus a typical bosses informing the next higher boss type chain.

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Let's remember something here, shall we?  This is a business.  A business that's about winning - winning the Stanley Cup - and that means that business decisions must be made.  And business decisions are sometimes difficult and not popular, but, for the good of the team/organization, they must be made, nonetheless.  Yes, Jeff was a goal scorer (when on a decent line) and a popular player, but he had his on-ice weaknesses too, as have been discussed.  The bottom line is that the time had come to make a business decision.  He wasn't the type of player that Rod wants on the roster, and Jeff knew that, hence, he was willing to be traded.  And when you're re-tooling a team with so much young talent, you simply don't keep someone around that isn't part of that long-term plan, as that can do more damage than good - on the ice and off.  As far as our "getting fleeced," none of us truly knows what was offered by other teams, but we do know that a winning team requires chemistry, and that Rod wants his players to compete at a certain level and intensity.  It's possible that we were offered a better option, but that player(s) may not have been a good fit for what Rod is building.  Possible, but not probable.  I'm more inclined to believe that the other teams recognized Jeff's weaknesses - the weaknesses that many on this forum refuse to acknowledge, because he was a goal scorer and "a nice guy."  So, we got what we got, and now we don't have to hear any whining, halfway through the season, about strife between Rod and Jeff, Jeff wanting out, etc...  A business decision was made.  Some turn out well.  Some don't.  If Pu turns out to be a valuable asset, then all will be forgotten (at least, by most), but if not, then all the haters can say "I told you so!"  Regardless, I thank Jeff for his time here, and I wish him nothing but the best in Buffalo. 

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wscaniac, IMHO you've hit the nail on the head with your comments. The deal is done and no need to wallow in crying over Mr Nice Guy moving on with his hockey life. Personally, I enjoyed Jeff's time here and most of his truly amazing goals, but in the disagreement we seem to be having over the more optimum time to trade Skinner, seems to me that one issue is being overlooked consistently and that is the unity of that YOUNG group, particularly if this is a disgruntled individual in their midst, either verbally or in non-verbal attitude? 

 

As to Buffalo fans commenting that we "got fleeced" who gives a rat's behind what that bunch thinks, as really and truly when will the elements of this trade become clear as to who won or lost, AND does that even matter? Like them, we could sit here and speculate all sorts of goals Skinner scores next year, how he works out with this or that player, and on and on, making ourselves more miserable by the day. The contrary of this would be that Skinner puts himself in line for a mega deal and Buffalo cannot afford him? Or that Pu grows by leaps and bounds and becomes our 2nd line center, displacing Jordan downward? Or so many other variables that I just don't have time to speculate. 

 

To me the real crux of this issue is quite simple, WHO amongst you all has not wished for almost a decade that this team could become harder to play against, shed the label of "Candy Canes", and to the person, do not allow one of our players to get hit unfairly without repercussions? That's the culture change I'm hoping that this coach is trying to instill, and I doubt that Jeff Skinner would buy into that concept? So my answer to the "got fleeced" issue is this, trades do not have to primarily involve who gets the best player, or how many goals are being envisioned, or how much money is saved but may have elements not immediately understood by fans despite the number of years they've been fans or involved in the sport. Trades, IMHO, are DYNAMIC and fluid, and may accomplish desired effects not always understood by those not in the locker room. Before we jump on the band wagon of criticism, lets just see how things work out?

Edited by KJUNKANE
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Dress it  up however you like it  , but in the end   there is  three  things to take away from the trade .    

 

1.  It sends a message to other GM's   that Carolina  is not going to play hardball  when getting back  equal value  or better in return , Which in end tells these other GM's  that  they can take advantage of the Canes in future trades .

 

2.   The trade itself   still does not address  the main problem areas of the team and that is Goal  Tending . 

 

3.  Lastly   The canes just minus  themselves  a 20 to 30 goal scorer  that did play a good rounded out game .  That  is not a step forward but instead of a step back . 

 

 I dont  care if the canes have 1 or 12 players that don't want play for this team .  If you have a history as a gm of giving away talent that could have given you back return value and you  STILL  show that you can't  make a TRADE  that  benefits the team  then there is only one door left for you as a gm to go through and that is away from the team.

 

Why do you all think  The new owners of the Jets  were not wanting  Don Waddell  to stay with the team  when they relocated ?  It's because they knew the man had a history  with Atlanta doing EXACTLY   what  he did  recently with the Skinner trade .

 

Go to the NHL  web site and you will see headlines of them talking about Skinner .  THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT  PU OR  THE OTHER 3  PICKS  THE CANES  HAVE NOW !   This is why I say  FIRE DON WADDELL NOW !!! 

Edited by Canesfanforever
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49 minutes ago, Canesfanforever said:

Dress it  up however you like it  , but in the end   there is  three  things to take away from the trade .    

 

1.  It sends a message to other GM's   that Carolina  is not going to play hardball  when getting back  equal value  or better in return , Which in end tells these other GM's  that  they can take advantage of the Canes in future trades .

 

2.   The trade itself   still does not address  the main problem areas of the team and that is Goal  Tending . 

 

3.  Lastly   The canes just minus  themselves  a 20 to 30 goal scorer  that did play a good rounded out game .  That  is not a step forward but instead of a step back . 

 

 I dont  care if the canes have 1 or 12 players that don't want play for this team .  If you have a history as a gm of giving away talent that could have given you back return value and you  STILL  show that you can't  make a TRADE  that  benefits the team  then there is only one door left for you as a gm to go through and that is away from the team.

 

Why do you all think  The new owners of the Jets  were not wanting  Don Waddell  to stay with the team  when they relocated ?  It's because they knew the man had a history  with Atlanta doing EXACTLY   what  he did  recently with the Skinner trade .

 

Go to the NHL  web site and you will see headlines of them talking about Skinner .  THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT  PU OR  THE OTHER 3  PICKS  THE CANES  HAVE NOW !   This is why I say  FIRE DON WADDELL NOW !!! 

 

This is hilarious.

 

to point number 1: they were trying to trade him for months.  And that was the best offer.  Based on Luke DeCock’s commentary they weren’t going to trade him  and Luke put out his column(which I infer based on the offers). Then all of a sudden Buffalo upped their offer which Waddell and crew felt they could live with and must not have felt they could do better (based on DeCock’s commentary).  So that sounds like Waddell was willing to wait it out.

 

2. The goaltending market was poop this year. We tried to get Grubauer but Washington said no to us.  Next year’s market has 3 goalie that are #1 quality. This class didn’t have any. Cant waste money this season to prevent using it next season.

 

3. He didn’t play a well rounded game but hey if it works in your head.

 

how many new owners keep on leadership???  How many relocating teams do???? Not very many at all.  Your ridiculous banter about Waddell is as funny as everyone’s online after the trade. Waddell isn’t even pulling the strings around here. The whole group wanted him gone and he is gone. The market was stupid low for Skinner as much so as the reported market for Patches. 

 

Waddell didn’t kill the thrashers. Read up on the subject a little.

Atlanta Spirit killed the Thrashers. They took over the team. A key partner died and the remaining partners spent a long time in court battling to see who became owner. They lost 174 million during that time. They also spent most of the time only bankrolling the garbage Hawks. They wouldn’t keep kovi or anyone else but would give Joe Johnson 9 figures?!?!  The ownership spent the rest of the time funding bad teams and doing all they could to sell the thrashers off.  The spirit still do an awful job at running the Hawks.

Sure Waddell was judged on some moves he made. How many other GMs in the league are criticized when they moved talented dudes and their draft picks/prospects don’t pan out?  Everyone of them.  I know one that used to be here and GMs somewhere else.

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50 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

gocanes0506, why let a few facts get in your way? Just form an opinion and support it any way you can shape  things.

I seriously think he (CFF) and BD58 are one in the same...they feed off the attention their troll posts get.

Edited by AWACSooner
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18 hours ago, gocanes0506 said:

 

But what if TD doesn’t run that way?  I feel like Waddell may not have been the GM if TD ran this like everyone else.

 

it also may be that TD doesn’t implement that hierarchy until he knows that those under him understand his process and how he would like decisions to be made. 

 

I’d bet TD runs more of a group discussion when there are issues versus a typical bosses informing the next higher boss type chain.

Or Waddell agreed to tack $400k onto whatever he was making already, still saving Dundon significant money. 

 

Even if he's more about group face-to-face collaboration (read: meetings) that only means TD maybe heard it directly from Roddy at the weekly meeting. However it happened, I think this came from Rod with the support of his friends and advisors from the Cup run, including Willy (possibly) and Cole (most definitely).

Edited by top-shelf-1
typo

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1 hour ago, gocanes0506 said:

 

This is hilarious.

 

to point number 1: they were trying to trade him for months.  And that was the best offer.  Based on Luke DeCock’s commentary they weren’t going to trade him  and Luke put out his column(which I infer based on the offers). Then all of a sudden Buffalo upped their offer which Waddell and crew felt they could live with and must not have felt they could do better (based on DeCock’s commentary).  So that sounds like Waddell was willing to wait it out.

 

2. The goaltending market was poop this year. We tried to get Grubauer but Washington said no to us.  Next year’s market has 3 goalie that are #1 quality. This class didn’t have any. Cant waste money this season to prevent using it next season.

 

3. He didn’t play a well rounded game but hey if it works in your head.

 

how many new owners keep on leadership???  How many relocating teams do???? Not very many at all.  Your ridiculous banter about Waddell is as funny as everyone’s online after the trade. Waddell isn’t even pulling the strings around here. The whole group wanted him gone and he is gone. The market was stupid low for Skinner as much so as the reported market for Patches. 

 

Waddell didn’t kill the thrashers. Read up on the subject a little.

Atlanta Spirit killed the Thrashers. They took over the team. A key partner died and the remaining partners spent a long time in court battling to see who became owner. They lost 174 million during that time. They also spent most of the time only bankrolling the garbage Hawks. They wouldn’t keep kovi or anyone else but would give Joe Johnson 9 figures?!?!  The ownership spent the rest of the time funding bad teams and doing all they could to sell the thrashers off.  The spirit still do an awful job at running the Hawks.

Sure Waddell was judged on some moves he made. How many other GMs in the league are criticized when they moved talented dudes and their draft picks/prospects don’t pan out?  Everyone of them.  I know one that used to be here and GMs somewhere else.

 

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On 8/3/2018 at 5:30 PM, LakeLivin said:

 

 

We'll see. I'm guardedly optimistic based on what I read from Sabres fans who have actually seen him play.  You're down on him because . . . he didn't make an NHL team as an 18 or 19 year old?  Only time will tell for sure.

I’m down on him (and the rest of the trade) because we traded for a box of rocks. Picks and prospects rarely pan out. Buffalo picked our pocket on this one.

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22 minutes ago, Canesfanforever said:

 

 

Nice summary of your value to the boards from your short time here, imo.  But, we are kinda used to ignoring you so there is that.

 

 

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1 hour ago, super_dave_1 said:

If everything Canes makes you miserable, just effin go.  Why be miserable?

 

 

At least the conspiracy theories have entertainment value, even if some of those are orbiting around planet nonsense.

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It's also entertaining to read over at least the last 5 months since Dundon took over that we needed a change and when the bandaid is finally completely ripped off, well, we are here aren't we?

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