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Faulk trade?

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Skinner is better than Faulk. We are flush on D, but are not in scoring. Puljujarvi has very high end upside. Cliff Pu does not (though his name is much easier to spell, so there's that).

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1 hour ago, coastal_caniac said:

People beeched and moaned about the Skinner return but now their happy with some project in return for Faulk.  So fickle.

A 20-year-old is now a project?

 

The great thing about hockey is that even as the sport has gotten younger, the quality of the game - the NHL game in particular - has made it tough for anyone but a generational talent to make an impact before they hit 22 or 23. Yes, there are exceptions, but they're called exceptions for a reason.

 

I wouldn't call Puljujarvi a project anytime prior to his 24th birthday, let alone when he's still got a year left on his ELC. 

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From MyNHLTradeRumors:

Quote

Jim Matheson: Would bet that the Oilers bring in ex-Oiler Brandon Davidson on a PTO. Left-handed Luca Sbisa may be the best bet, and it would mean Darnell Nurse moves into their top-four.

 

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4 hours ago, remkin said:

Puljujarvi has very high end upside.

 

In your opinion. That didn't come out right.  I certainly agree he once HAD a high-end upside.  I'm not so sure now.  Hence, a project. 

 

Also, Puljujarvi is no longer considered a prosect given the number of NHL games he has played.  Cliff Pu is.  Not really a fair comparison, even if it was in a discussion involving returns.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

A 20-year-old is now a project?

 

He's not proven at 20-years old, so yeah, putting him on this team would be a project.

 

I think it's just semantics though.  How about this - a young player who has yet to prove himself [and may never]. 

 

If's and maybe's = project.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Also, a trade of Faulk for Puljujarvi would require the Canes to take on a cap dump [like Lucic] just to get to the cap floor.  I guess that's just background noise that muddies up a trade discussion though.

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4 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

People beeched and moaned about the Skinner return but now their happy with some project in return for Faulk.  So fickle.

 

1 hour ago, coastal_caniac said:

Also, a trade of Faulk for Puljujarvi would require the Canes to take on a cap dump [like Lucic] just to get to the cap floor.  I guess that's just background noise that muddies up a trade discussion though.

 

I can only speak for myself.  On a scale of 1-10, I see Faulk's value as being around 6 or so, and Skinner's around 8 (ignoring the "rental" issue).

 

I think your point about salary is very valid, not just from a  Canes perspective of staying above the cap floor but also from the Oil perspective of staying below the cap ceiling.  I'd be willing to look at taking a cap dump in return for more coming back, but I wouldn't even consider Lucic unless the Oil retained 50% of his contract. That might make it worthwhile taking a flier on him bouncing back.  If it became necessary, 50% of a Lucic buyout next summer would cost us $2.5m and the summer after that only $1.5 million.  Dunno, I'd have to think more about it if that option ever became available.

Edited by LakeLivin

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2 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

 

He's not proven at 20-years old, so yeah, putting him on this team would be a project.

 

I think it's just semantics though.  How about this - a young player who has yet to prove himself [and may never]. 

 

If's and maybe's = project.

Okay. I guess we define it differently. I think of a project as someone who has been around and shown he has the tools but has either motivational or locker room issues that get in the way and make him a gamble for reasons other than skills. The HWSNBN, Evander Kane, and Anton Babchuk types.

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2 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

I think your point about salary is very valid, not just from a  Canes perspective of staying above the cap floor but also from the Oil perspective of staying below the cap ceiling.

 

Good point, thanks.

 

The Canes may want to rid themselves from Faulk, but it's not going to be an easy trade in financial terms, without even considering the "list" of teams.

 

Also, Dundon doesn't impress me as taking on a crap deal for an over-the-hiller he would likely have to buy out at some point to get an unproven player for somebody that doesn't have to traded.

Edited by coastal_caniac
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Aside from the salary cap considerations, I just think that Puljujarvi would be worth taking a swing at for the reasons I posted and based on what he's already done in the NHL. If Pufjujarvi was hitting stride with his original expectations it would take a lot more than Faulk to get him. The tables I showed and reading the piece supports this, but it would certainly be risky.

 

And this is just me. I would not predict the committee to make this decision, and I get that there is significant risk with this move. The more conservative move would be to try to move him for a Saad or maybe RNH 50-60 point proven forward. Part of my thinking is that we have a lot of really nice potential 50 point prospects and swinging for the fence for a guy with elite upside who has not hit expectations seems more worth it. Surely this move is not for everyone and could backfire. IMO the Oilers are not ready to bail on the 4th overall pick yet, but who knows?

 

This is all just so theoretical, not even a rumor, that I was not really getting into cap issues, but in reality they would have to be considered.

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5 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

A 20-year-old is now a project?

 

The great thing about hockey is that even as the sport has gotten younger, the quality of the game - the NHL game in particular - has made it tough for anyone but a generational talent to make an impact before they hit 22 or 23. Yes, there are exceptions, but they're called exceptions for a reason.

 

I wouldn't call Puljujarvi a project anytime prior to his 24th birthday, let alone when he's still got a year left on his ELC. 

 

And we traded away a 21 year old.

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16 hours ago, remkin said:

Aside from the salary cap considerations, I just think that Puljujarvi would be worth taking a swing at for the reasons I posted and based on what he's already done in the NHL. If Pufjujarvi was hitting stride with his original expectations it would take a lot more than Faulk to get him Faulk wouldn't come close to getting him. The tables I showed and reading the piece supports this, but it would certainly be risky.

 

And this is just me. I would not predict the committee to make this decision, and I get that there is significant risk with this move. The more conservative move would be to try to move him for a Saad or maybe RNH 50-60 point proven forward. Part of my thinking is that we have a lot of really nice potential 50 point prospects and swinging for the fence for a guy with elite upside who has not hit expectations seems more worth it. Surely this move is not for everyone and could backfire. IMO the Oilers are not ready to bail on the 4th overall pick yet, but who knows?

 

This is all just so theoretical, not even a rumor, that I was not really getting into cap issues, but in reality they would have to be considered.

 

FTFY ;)

 

I don't see the Oil trading RNH, but if we could get it done I'd be happy with either Puljujarvi or Saad.  My fear is that Faulk won't bring back either, and we're looking at another return of all futures. I want someone coming back with at least a decent probability of contributing this season, even if there's some risk associated (Puljujarvi).

 

Edited by LakeLivin
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2 hours ago, gocanes0506 said:

Who was a project and got back a top 20 defender 

 

I think Lindholm had as much to do with the return as Hanifin did.  Although, I could be projecting, as I feel worse about losing Lindholm than Hanifin.

Edited by LakeLivin
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We are fielding the worst top 9 since I have been a Canea fan (Greensboro).  If we do not turn around Faulk for a top 6 guy then we will be competing for the 1st overall pick.  Argue all you want throw stats at me on how our rookies who never put in a 40 point season or scored a single NHL point will carry the load.  Just ain't happenin.

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39 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

We are fielding the worst top 9 since I have been a Canea fan (Greensboro).  If we do not turn around Faulk for a top 6 guy then we will be competing for the 1st overall pick.  Argue all you want throw stats at me on how our rookies who never put in a 40 point season or scored a single NHL point will carry the load.  Just ain't happenin.

Man if I had time to break down every top 9 for 20 years to prove how wrong this is.

 

how many years have we had 2 60 point scorers and 2 top prospects in the lineup? This top 9 is better than last year’s top 9.

Aho, Turbo, Staal, McGinn and Williams are the same although next season’s Aho and Turbo may be better than last seasons version

Zykov < Skinner (not by much and Zykov seems to be able to play with teammates)

Necas > Ryan

Svech >>> Stempniak

Ferland < Lindholm (not by much)

 

that is without mentioning Martinook, PDG/Foegele, and Rask will be better than last year’s 4th line.

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You're comparing Svech and Necas.  2 guys who have yet to score a single NHL point though.   Svech I see your point.  Necas though.  Big gamble.  You don't get it do you you?  For years we had Francis-Brindy and then a Staal-Brindy 1-2 combo.  It resulted in payoffs.   Now we have no 1C and not a solid 1-2 combo unless Ahonis ready for 1st C duties.

Edited by bluedevil58

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11 hours ago, winger52 said:

 

And we traded away a 21 year old.

 

11 hours ago, gocanes0506 said:

Who was a project and got back a top 20 defender 

GC beat me to it. Noah balked at not being extended last summer and fired Bobby Orr. His picture is now in the dictionary beside "project."

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10 hours ago, gocanes0506 said:

Man if I had time to break down every top 9 for 20 years to prove how wrong this is.

 

how many years have we had 2 60 point scorers and 2 top prospects in the lineup? This top 9 is better than last year’s top 9.

Aho, Turbo, Staal, McGinn and Williams are the same although next season’s Aho and Turbo may be better than last seasons version

Zykov < Skinner (not by much and Zykov seems to be able to play with teammates)

Necas > Ryan

Svech >>> Stempniak

Ferland < Lindholm (not by much)

 

that is without mentioning Martinook, PDG/Foegele, and Rask will be better than last year’s 4th line.

gocanes, you're fighting a losing battle here, my friend. While I see some merit in an argument that what we are currently planning to "ice"(thanks top), as far as "unproven on NHL ice", a team with many unproven players, I honestly cannot comprehend the almost universal theme of gloom and doom that permeates 99% of some poster's thoughts.I get that we've been on this roller coaster ride for what seems like an eternity, but my gosh, lets try to be positive for at least 1 game. IMHO, outlandish statements like "worst team since ---- Greensboro" are nothing short of trolling. 

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1 hour ago, KJUNKANE said:

gocanes, you're fighting a losing battle here, my friend. While I see some merit in an argument that what we are currently planning to "ice"(thanks top), as far as "unproven on NHL ice", a team with many unproven players, I honestly cannot comprehend the almost universal theme of gloom and doom that permeates 99% of some poster's thoughts.I get that we've been on this roller coaster ride for what seems like an eternity, but my gosh, lets try to be positive for at least 1 game. IMHO, outlandish statements like "worst team since ---- Greensboro" are nothing short of trolling. 

 

Dude.  It's not outlandish if it's truly how I feel.  This team doesn't have a single 30 goal scorer.  Not one.  We have TT and Aho who are great up and coming players.  Statistically speaking teams do not usually win without a good 1 - 2 center combo.  The good teams have proven 1st line centers and most times 2 proven 1st line centers.  We do not have a single one.  The argument can be made that Aho is a center and I will hold judgement on that until I see what he can do through 82 games as a 1st line center.

 

I see all these counter arguments how Necas, Zykov, and Svecjh will replace the production of Ryan, Lindy, and Skinner.  2 of these guys have yet to tally a single NHL point and one has a terrible +/- in the AHL.  This team has one scoring line and if you don't think that will be a problem then you're a fool.  Every off season we have the same conversations.  We bank our season on if X, Y, and Z happen.  If everything goes this way then we will make it to the post season.  That line of thought hasn't worked out the past 9 seasons and I do not see it happening this year.

 

We have a dynamic blue line.  That is great.  Followed by beyond questionable goal tending to say the least.  Will one of these goalies be average?  I have no idea but I also think the D can only do so much.  When those softies are let in it will deflate the team as we have seen in years past by Ward's softy he lets in glove side every game.  There are just too many holes on this team.  Jordan Staal an elite shut down center and an aging Williams will have to carry the load with second line scoring.  Doesn't really sound that great tbh. Especially since our glorious 2nd c has yet to put up 50 points on this team.  Then we have Rask.  He is the real wild card here.  Was he injured or did he regress?  I am leaning toward he was injured and it affected his game but only time will tell.

 

When the goals dry up this coming season it will be because this team did not go out an nab a top 6 forward and also traded away their only goal scorer for peanuts.  My guess is management thinks they have a cheaper version of Skinner in Svech so they could get rid of his contract thus improving their bottom line in terms of revenue.  I don't buy into this he wasn't a good fit nonsense but to each their own.  Go ahead and say I am trolling.  Then go look at every good team in the league and you will see their center combo.

 

 

Edited by bluedevil58
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15 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

Also, Dundon doesn't impress me as taking on a crap deal for an over-the-hiller he would likely have to buy out at some point to get an unproven player for somebody that doesn't have to traded.

 

This made me LOL.  It really is probably the simplest and most likely summary of the situation.

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3 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

 

GC beat me to it. Noah balked at not being extended last summer and fired Bobby Orr. His picture is now in the dictionary beside "project."

 

And we didn't get to the 22 or 23  " impact " age. 

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32 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

 

Dude.  It's not outlandish if it's truly how I feel.  This team doesn't have a single 30 goal scorer.  Not one.  We have TT and Aho who are great up and coming players.  Statistically speaking teams do not usually win without a good 1 - 2 center combo.  The good teams have proven 1st line centers and most times 2 proven 1st line centers.  We do not have a single one.  The argument can be made that Aho is a center and I will hold judgement on that until I see what he can do through 82 games as a 1st line center.

 

I see all these counter arguments how Necas, Zykov, and Svecjh will replace the production of Ryan, Lindy, and Skinner.  2 of these guys have yet to tally a single NHL point and one has a terrible +/- in the AHL.  This team has one scoring line and if you don't think that will be a problem then you're a fool.  Every off season we have the same conversations.  We bank our season on if X, Y, and Z happen.  If everything goes this way then we will make it to the post season.  That line of thought hasn't worked out the past 9 seasons and I do not see it happening this year.

 

We have a dynamic blue line.  That is great.  Followed by beyond questionable goal tending to say the least.  Will one of these goalies be average?  I have no idea but I also think the D can only do so much.  When those softies are let in it will deflate the team as we have seen in years past by Ward's softy he lets in glove side every game.  There are just too many holes on this team.  Jordan Staal an elite shut down center and an aging Williams will have to carry the load with second line scoring.  Doesn't really sound that great tbh. Especially since our glorious 2nd c has yet to put up 50 points on this team.  Then we have Rask.  He is the real wild card here.  Was he injured or did he regress?  I am leaning toward he was injured and it affected his game but only time will tell.

 

When the goals dry up this coming season it will be because this team did not go out an nab a top 6 forward and also traded away their only goal scorer for peanuts.  My guess is management thinks they have a cheaper version of Skinner in Svech so they could get rid of his contract thus improving their bottom line in terms of revenue.  I don't buy into this he wasn't a good fit nonsense but to each their own.  Go ahead and say I am trolling.  Then go look at every good team in the league and you will see their center combo.

 

 

 

While I'm usually the first around here to give you grief, this is a quality post.  I appreciate you fleshing out why you are unhappy in a logical manner.  I'll also overlook the almost Remkinesque post length.  See how I got a backhanded jab in on both of you so quickly?

 

I agree that we can't count on the new kids on the block replacing the scoring of the dearly departed.  That is a real concern.  My gut feeling is that a bit of that scoring replacement is going to come with the power play with Hamilton firing shots from the point and Brindy (maybe, just maybe) getting some guys to crash the crease looking for rebounds. I also agree about the glaring hole in goal, or the questionable hole in goal.  I too think Rask was playing with a hurt wing most of the year, and most likely should have been shut down earlier.

 

Superdave agrees with BD.  The End Times are near.

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