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Faulk trade?

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bd58(dude), I am not questioning how you feel, only that you NEVER seem to lighten up? You have made many valid points, but the beauty of this game I've grown to love is that it's the consummate Team Sport. To me, this translates to: the sum is sometimes greater than the parts. Granted there are many "if's" in this feeling, but look no further than the Stanley Cup champions from this year for an example of this feeling. Casts off all, and who would have thought? Did they have a good 1-2 center combination, or even any cohesion prior to season start(other than a bond of not being wanted)?

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3 minutes ago, super_dave_1 said:

 

While I'm usually the first around here to give you grief, this is a quality post.  I appreciate you fleshing out why you are unhappy in a logical manner.  I'll also overlook the almost Remkinesque post length.  See how I got a backhanded jab in on both of you so quickly?

 

I agree that we can't count on the new kids on the block replacing the scoring of the dearly departed.  That is a real concern.  My gut feeling is that a bit of that scoring replacement is going to come with the power play with Hamilton firing shots from the point and Brindy (maybe, just maybe) getting some guys to crash the crease looking for rebounds. I also agree about the glaring hole in goal, or the questionable hole in goal.  I too think Rask was playing with a hurt wing most of the year, and most likely should have been shut down earlier.

 

Superdave agrees with BD.  The End Times are near.

And sd, I appreciate your reply also, It's just I hope neither you or bd58 don't think I am not without angst about much of what you both point out? The difference is, I am willing to see how the team gels, under the tutelage of a new coach, and with many untested but exciting newbies. I'd much rather do that than start declaring we're an abject disaster and start planning for the next draft, meanwhile screaming to the heavens "I told you so".

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While this probably should be in the off-season thread, I'll just drop it here since the recent conversation brought it up in my mind, although Faulk is pertinent in this discussion.  I may have seen this before here, so I apologize if this is plagiarism.

 

I know +/- is a flawed stat, but 9 of the bottom 12 players in +/- are among the dearly departed.  Is that a coincidence?  Faulk is #2 by the way. 

Capture.thumb.PNG.224c443d23d0c4b8376ab60b2067b440.PNG

 

Edited by super_dave_1

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14 minutes ago, super_dave_1 said:

While this probably should be in the off-season thread, I'll just drop it here since the recent conversation brought it up in my mind.  I may have seen this before here, so I apologize if this is plagiarism.

 

I know +/- is a flawed stat, but 9 of the bottom 12 players in +/- are among the dearly departed.  Is that a coincidence?

Capture.thumb.PNG.224c443d23d0c4b8376ab60b2067b440.PNG

 

 

My guess would be "yes and no".  The committee isn't going to make decisions off of +-, but taken into context I think it can be an rough indicator of the quality of 2-way play.  I suspect that played a role in trading Skinner and Hanifin, and maybe Ryan as well.  But except for Lindholm, I think the rest were just turning over players who weren't going to contribute much. 

 

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We do realize that Faulk had more hits than any other D-man. That he skated with Hanifin much of the year who wasn't exactly a +/- stalwart himself. It would be interesting to find out how much of his ice time was spent with lines other than Aho and TT. He had 90 blocked shots and 63 take always. He still skates big minutes. He also was second among Dmen in point production.JWilley also indicated he was a good leader in the locker room along with Staal. JWilley left out any comment on Skinner

 

I'm not saying he is a defensive gem. He coughed up the puck a total of 66 times. Thats far too many but was it him or a combination of him and his partner(s). Don't get me wrong I'm never going to say he should be put on a PK but maybe step back and look at the overall game. Just maybe we went out and got deHann to skate with Faulk, maybe.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't trade him. We have a lot of money tied up on our Blue Line. We now have a D-man that can replace him and we have a couple or more good D-prospects on the rise. Something has to give and it is likely Faulk.

 

With  2 years left on his contract we don't have to be in a rush. We can hold out for what we want (whatever that is). I won't be surprised if he is traded before or during training camp or in November or at trade deadline but I won't be surprised if we start the season with Faulk on the roster.

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1 hour ago, KJUNKANE said:

The difference is, I am willing to see how the team gels, under the tutelage of a new coach, and with many untested but exciting newbies. I'd much rather do that than start declaring we're an abject disaster and start planning for the next draft, meanwhile screaming to the heavens "I told you so". 

I am SO with you here.

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3 hours ago, winger52 said:

 

And we didn't get to the 22 or 23  " impact " age. 

I guess we're talking past each other. Noah became a problem player last summer by balking at a bridge deal and firing his agent. Though he does need to take some serious steps as a player to fulfill the promise of his draft position and hype, I don't think we let go of him on that basis. I think we let go of him because he carried himself as an entitled (read: spoiled) kid, and because we wanted some veteran presence on the blueline that actually plays D.

 

And for defensemen, the impact age is higher. I'd give Noah until 26 before considering him a bust (given how early he joined the league). 

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3 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I guess we're talking past each other. Noah became a problem player last summer by balking at a bridge deal and firing his agent. Though he does need to take some serious steps as a player to fulfill the promise of his draft position and hype, I don't think we let go of him on that basis. I think we let go of him because he carried himself as an entitled (read: spoiled) kid, and because we wanted some veteran presence on the blueline that actually plays D.

 

Hamilton is all that the Canes could hope Hanifin could become.  Traded magic beans for the bean stalk.  Also, Hanifin still hasn't signed anything with Calgary.  I still think he'll end up in Boston just as soon as his UFA time hits.  I'd be surprised if he signed any of his UFA time away now. 

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2 hours ago, super_dave_1 said:

 

Hamilton is all that the Canes could hope Hanifin could become.  Traded magic beans for the bean stalk.  Also, Hanifin still hasn't signed anything with Calgary.  I still think he'll end up in Boston just as soon as his UFA time hits.  I'd be surprised if he signed any of his UFA time away now. 

Agreed. I will be stunned if he's in Calgary after the coming this season.

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8 hours ago, super_dave_1 said:

While this probably should be in the off-season thread, I'll just drop it here since the recent conversation brought it up in my mind, although Faulk is pertinent in this discussion.  I may have seen this before here, so I apologize if this is plagiarism.

 

I know +/- is a flawed stat, but 9 of the bottom 12 players in +/- are among the dearly departed.  Is that a coincidence?  Faulk is #2 by the way. 

Capture.thumb.PNG.224c443d23d0c4b8376ab60b2067b440.PNG

 

 

I don't think it's a coincidence. My hypothesis has been that we are using more precise stats that basically bear out the same thing as plus minus tends to, (especially comparatively, over time and at the extremes). It's been said that we are looking for players that have a history of doing the things that lead to winning. Those are the things that tend to eventually compile into really good or pretty bad plus/minuses IMO, but I think we are using the underlying better stats that are mostly saying the same thing and then moving guys in who do them and guys out who don't.  

 

The other half of the evidence that we are doing this is the guys we've moved IN. They are all on the right side of plus-minus. Again, I'm guessing that we looked at stats that say they do the "right things" and play "the right way", but over time, they tend to show up in the plus minus generally. 

 

Whatever one thinks of the plus-minus, I am really glad we are valuing players who do the things that lead to a good one, and devaluing those who don't. 

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10 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

 

Dude.  It's not outlandish if it's truly how I feel.  This team doesn't have a single 30 goal scorer.  Not one.  We have TT and Aho who are great up and coming players.  Statistically speaking teams do not usually win without a good 1 - 2 center combo.  The good teams have proven 1st line centers and most times 2 proven 1st line centers.  We do not have a single one.  The argument can be made that Aho is a center and I will hold judgement on that until I see what he can do through 82 games as a 1st line center.

 

I see all these counter arguments how Necas, Zykov, and Svecjh will replace the production of Ryan, Lindy, and Skinner.  2 of these guys have yet to tally a single NHL point and one has a terrible +/- in the AHL.  This team has one scoring line and if you don't think that will be a problem then you're a fool.  Every off season we have the same conversations.  We bank our season on if X, Y, and Z happen.  If everything goes this way then we will make it to the post season.  That line of thought hasn't worked out the past 9 seasons and I do not see it happening this year.

 

We have a dynamic blue line.  That is great.  Followed by beyond questionable goal tending to say the least.  Will one of these goalies be average?  I have no idea but I also think the D can only do so much.  When those softies are let in it will deflate the team as we have seen in years past by Ward's softy he lets in glove side every game.  There are just too many holes on this team.  Jordan Staal an elite shut down center and an aging Williams will have to carry the load with second line scoring.  Doesn't really sound that great tbh. Especially since our glorious 2nd c has yet to put up 50 points on this team.  Then we have Rask.  He is the real wild card here.  Was he injured or did he regress?  I am leaning toward he was injured and it affected his game but only time will tell.

 

When the goals dry up this coming season it will be because this team did not go out an nab a top 6 forward and also traded away their only goal scorer for peanuts.  My guess is management thinks they have a cheaper version of Skinner in Svech so they could get rid of his contract thus improving their bottom line in terms of revenue.  I don't buy into this he wasn't a good fit nonsense but to each their own.  Go ahead and say I am trolling.  Then go look at every good team in the league and you will see their center combo.

 

 

Are we really giving up on the season before it starts? I’m more concerned about whether Darling or Mrazek can step up than whether we can score goals. But I’d rather be cautiously optimistic that one of them can at least be average. And aside from Faulk, we have a lot of prospects we could package for the right player before or even during the season. That would be to bring in a goalie if needed and/or a top 6 forward. At least let me enjoy believing we could have a decent season for now. I have been queasy about a lot of decisions made in the offseason (mostly management and coaching hires, though not Rod), but where’s the fun in throwing in the towel before the first puck is dropped?

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1 hour ago, bluedevilcane said:

but where’s the fun in throwing in the towel before the first puck is dropped?

 

 

Never underestimate the power of successfully laying the groundwork for a boastful 'i told you so'.

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28 minutes ago, realmdrakkar said:

 

 

Never underestimate the power of successfully laying the groundwork for a boastful 'i told you so'.

 

Technically this has been the case the last 5 years or so.  I know I catch a lot of heat here.  But I truly do not want I told you so this season.  Nor will I boast it when and if it happens.

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8 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I guess we're talking past each other. Noah became a problem player last summer by balking at a bridge deal and firing his agent. Though he does need to take some serious steps as a player to fulfill the promise of his draft position and hype, I don't think we let go of him on that basis. I think we let go of him because he carried himself as an entitled (read: spoiled) kid, and because we wanted some veteran presence on the blueline that actually plays D.

 

And for defensemen, the impact age is higher. I'd give Noah until 26 before considering him a bust (given how early he joined the league). 

 

Agreed . D men are usually in the 26-27 range. Something or someone got to Noah this past year. I'm wiling to bet on the new agent combined with the the utter mismanagement of players by Bill Peters. Noah will be a great D man for someone else and Canes fans will look back at that " what if moment".

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Right now, Hanifan is not a bust.  He is certainly not meeting the pre-draft expectations, but he's a middle 6 defenseman that still has plenty of room to grow.  I do agree with the poster that we traded magic beans for the bean stalk.

 

At this point, Fleury seems to be the odd man out.  Faulk will play, even if is on the off-side on the 3rd line.  TVR and Faulk as a 3rd pairing D is VERY strong.  The issue is that we have commited the most money in the NHL to defense and to BD58's point, we have a lot of talented yet unproven guys up front.  I wish we could make something happen there, but I am not so sure we can.  Wonder if we could call Ottawa about Matt Duchense :)

 

 

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32 minutes ago, ironman87 said:

.  I wish we could make something happen there, but I am not so sure we can.  Wonder if we could call Ottawa about Matt Duchense :)

 

 

 

Ottawa has completely screwed up their offseason.  They are in an awful position right now. Their best three talents could walk (and probably will) in the offseason but they cannot afford to trade them until the deadline. They have to maximize their point potential to minimize the hurt of the Duchene trade.  

 

They should have gave uo the 4th overall and went into tank mode.  Trying to ensure they get Hughes at 1OA.  They could have easily gotten a 1st rounder in the 2018 draft by trading Karlsson earlier. To make matters worse they may be rushing Tkachuk to the league to make their roster slightly better.

 

 The only thing I would say is, we are one of few teams that has good roster players and roster ready futures available to help Ottawa consider a trade for one of their top forwards.  I don’t know that we want to trade a 2019 first round pick until we know how far our goaltending will carry us.  Im sure that Ottawa will require a 1st for next year in any deal for Duchene, Stone, or Karlsson.

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1 hour ago, ironman87 said:

At this point, Fleury seems to be the odd man out.  Faulk will play, even if is on the off-side on the 3rd line.  TVR and Faulk as a 3rd pairing D is VERY strong.

I hope you're wrong. The only way Faulk should be on the ice at all is on the 2nd PP unit, particularly with our suspect goaltending. Losing Noah only solved half of the problem, which was that last year, the two of them combined had a higher number of turnovers than the rest of the D combined. Keeping Faulk for the only thing he's (lately, marginally) good for would require dressing 7 D and shorting the forward lines. Fleury is much stronger on D and TVR showed signs last year of offensive upside--and much better decision making on pinches than Faulk ever has. He's not ready for the PP yet but I can see a strong competition developing among him, Slavin and Pesce for 2PP minutes.

 

Move Faulk for Saad (or Puljujarvi) and the future is now. IMO.

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For the record, I remain totally open (in favor, even) of trying Faulk on the wing. If he's going to play minimal minutes for his position, let him do it where he lives anyway, in the O-zone.

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13 hours ago, ironman87 said:

At this point, Fleury seems to be the odd man out.  Faulk will play, even if is on the off-side on the 3rd line.  TVR and Faulk as a 3rd pairing D is VERY strong.  

It should come as no surprise that I also hope that's wrong. If Fleury ends up being stunted by too much time in the pressbox then Faulk better be someone else than I've seen, because that could be the biggest tragedy of all. This is why Faulk just has to be moved. If we have to keep him though, we better have some sort of rotation that gets Fleury games. Just trade Faulk for crying out loud, we've got Bean in the wings too. 

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