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In-Season 2018-2019

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On 4/2/2019 at 10:38 AM, hag65 said:

If you don't want to be here I don't want you here.  Just another entitled @#$%.

 

Guy can really pass and puck handle though, I'll give him that.

In the NCAA, which is an alternate universe. 

 

After Dumoulin, Hanifin, and now Fox, I think the hockey gods are trying to tell our scouts to stop wasting their time in New England. 

 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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All roads to Fox go through us for the next 18 months. Call his bluff and make him play another year at Hah!-vard. Let him kill it again, and the buzz to build, and then trade his @$$ for a first and a second. Even if he's changed his mind by then and says he "wants" to play here after all.

 

The Rags are going to have to solve their D problem next season; their fans have little patience, and they've now missed the dance two years running. The last time that happened was in '04-'05 (which was the last season of a seven-year drought for them). Before last season, they had only missed once in the intervening 12 years.

 

Like someone else said, let's hope Donny boy's got the cojones to wait the kid out. Fool me once...

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10 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

All roads to Fox go through us for the next 18 months. Call his bluff and make him play another year at Hah!-vard. Let him kill it again, and the buzz to build, and then trade his @$$ for a first and a second. Even if he's changed his mind by then and says he "wants" to play here after all.

 

The Rags are going to have to solve their D problem next season; their fans have little patience, and they've now missed the dance two years running. The last time that happened was in '04-'05 (which was the last season of a seven-year drought for them). Before last season, they had only missed once in the intervening 12 years.

 

Like someone else said, let's hope Donny boy's got the cojones to wait the kid out. Fool me once...

I like it top, now if Dundon/Waddell will only buy in, than special treatment enjoyed/demanded by some teams/team owners will go the way of their stuffed shirt images? If we are going to be referred to as "Jerks", lets go all the way toward The Establishment. 

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Call his bluff and make him play another year at Hah!-vard.

 

It won't bother me if that is the way it plays out but if somebody wants to give us a 1st or 2nd (speculation what we want) for his rights. Do it now.

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2 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Call his bluff and make him play another year at Hah!-vard. 

Trade his rights to somewhere he doesn't want to go for whatever you can get, then let him "play another year at Hah!-vard."

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35 minutes ago, OBXer said:

I should pay more attention

 

 

Guess Skinner’s doesn’t count as OT as his was a shootout winner on the Finland trip his rookie year. Wonder how many guys get a game winner as their first goal without it actually being counted as a goal.

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Speaking of Skinner...he STILL hasn’t made the playoffs...but he’s about to make so much $$, he probably won’t care.

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3 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

All roads to Fox go through us for the next 18 months. Call his bluff and make him play another year at Hah!-vard. Let him kill it again, and the buzz to build, and then trade his @$$ for a first and a second. Even if he's changed his mind by then and says he "wants" to play here after all.

 

The Rags are going to have to solve their D problem next season; their fans have little patience, and they've now missed the dance two years running. The last time that happened was in '04-'05 (which was the last season of a seven-year drought for them). Before last season, they had only missed once in the intervening 12 years.

 

Like someone else said, let's hope Donny boy's got the cojones to wait the kid out. Fool me once...

 

But will waiting work? If I were the GM of one of the other 30 (31?) teams, I'd be tempted to wait it out. Why give up anything if he says he's gonna go back to Hah-vahd and test free agency? Fox would be rather dim to put out rumors like that and expect TD and GMDW and committee to not remember that next year. He was a third-round choice by the Flames, so it's not like he's Werenski all of a sudden.

 

Too bad we can't trade his rights to Seattle and watch him stew while he waits for them to start playing in two years....

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My inference based on everything I've read, including Fox's statements:

  • Good chance Fox still wants to go pro as soon as possible (which is in his best interest from a number of perspectives)
  • Just doesn't want to do it with the Canes because of their depth at RD (Hamilton, Pesce, Faulk, TVR, McKeown in the AHL). Even as a Canes fan, I'd understand that.
  • Return to Harvard could be a ploy to facilitate a trade.
  • Fox isn't set on primarily the Rangers (he made it a point to specifically say so), but I'm guessing he isn't open to just any team, either, given that he can have his pick Aug 2020
  • In a vacuum, RHD Fox is a valuable prospect (look at the success of some other recent "top tier" NCAA d-men like Werenski and McAvoy).
  • That value is reduced by the degree of signing risk a team perceives

If most of the above is correct, here's what I'd do if I were the Canes GM.

  1. Let Fox know I'm willing to work with him to meet his needs as long as he's willing to work with me to meet mine. If not, emphasize that we'll be retaining his rights until he signs or they expire in Aug 2020.
  2. Ask him for a list of 8 or so teams he'd be willing to play for in a sign and trade.
  3. Let said teams know he's available and would play for them, and invite offers
  4. Take the best offer. I've got to believe that he'd bring back a decent return if you eliminate the signing risk.

Big question regarding the above strategy: how much interaction can an NCAA athlete have with a pro sports team before he jeopardizes his eligibility?

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4 hours ago, OBXer said:

 

It won't bother me if that is the way it plays out but if somebody wants to give us a 1st or 2nd (speculation what we want) for his rights. Do it now.

I don’t begrudge any kid who wants to prioritize his education over a year earlier in the NHL. I do begrudge any kid that says he wants to prioritize joining the league but only with certain teams. I get that being a rookie sucks when it comes to having little to no say in where you go your first few years. It’s the system though and unless it’s Ottawa or Edmonton (who cannot win even with ALL the #1 picks) there is little to complain about wherever you land. 

 

So, for Fox, four upsides of Carolina:

 

Team is improving, yet have room for you to grow without being buried forever in the AHL.

 

Weather is decent your entire season, even if you win the cup.

 

Lower cost of living makes those rookie dollars go farther.

 

Average person on the street won’t recognize you, meaning a life outside your on ice job. 

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4 hours ago, OBXer said:

 

It won't bother me if that is the way it plays out but if somebody wants to give us a 1st or 2nd (speculation what we want) for his rights. Do it now.

Not me, I want both. First and a second. If it doesn't happen, you'll get one or the other at minimum, and sending a message to other players we control that if they don't want to play here they should have the common courtesy to let us know personally. If they choose not to, we can be pricks, too. 

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2 hours ago, JonKerfoot said:

But will waiting work? If I were the GM of one of the other 30 (31?) teams,

Except maybe the Rags, which is where he wants to go. If they're desperate enough to put up a first and second anytime between now and August of 2020, fine, pull the trigger. If not, and the most we can get in the end is the second (only) he would bring now anyway, we've lost nothing, but it costs him a year of NHL salary.

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4 hours ago, AWACSooner said:

Speaking of Skinner...he STILL hasn’t made the playoffs...but he’s about to make so much $$, he probably won’t care.

He finally got #38 tonight. If I’m him though, I’d be looking at a contender (or Pittsburgh, you know that GM lives to recycle)!

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I would hate to see Fox get exactly what he wants unless the deal is sweet. Would rather get a roster player or very good prospect. From another team out west maybe less. 😉

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4 hours ago, Canes06cup17 said:

I would hate to see Fox get exactly what he wants unless the deal is sweet. Would rather get a roster player or very good prospect. From another team out west maybe less. 😉

I agree.  If the team is leveraged into dealing Fox, I would like to see them get an NHL ready forward back in return, even if it means packaging another asset with Fox (one of the Buffalo draft picks that came with Pu or and extra Dman).  I won't be surprised if Ferland walks, we need to spend the $ on Mrazek and Aho, and another power forward to take Ferland's place coming back for Fox would be ideal.

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6 hours ago, Canes06cup17 said:

I would hate to see Fox get exactly what he wants unless the deal is sweet. Would rather get a roster player or very good prospect. From another team out west maybe less. 😉

Totally agree. Remember when everyone got all bent about Jack Johnson not signing and staying at Michigan? He is a decent player, but he's a career -114 and was WAY overrated on his upside as an NHLer. He was supposed to be "the next Bobby Orr" or something.... He wasn't even the next *insert good d-man here*, and it likely cost him a cup in 2006.....which he has never won, by the way.....

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Nice to see stimulating discussion on Fox. For a minute there I didn't think anyone cared.

 

As to his positioning by letting things slip out, I don't think that makes him anything but savvy. I don't share a notion that if a guy shows some smarts that makes him a bad guy. I'd still take Nylander and he held out for half of a season. Lots of guys go through the business end of things in a way that may not be as pure as the driven snow, but are still good people and good players. I don't think that exercising your options makes you some kind of entitled prima donna by definition either. It doesn't mean you're not though either. I'd hope that we sorted some of that question out before we traded for him.

 

All of this refers to the idea that he might be putting things out there without coming out and making a clear declaration of intent himself. Teams do this constantly. It gets the message out there without pinning yourself into a position. 

 

I see Fox as putting it out there that he wants to be in the NHL next year and at the moment doesn't see that happening with the Canes without looking like he's telling the Canes to trade an established current player in the middle of a playoff race, which would indeed be prima donna behavior. 

 

If Fox wants to pick his team, then that is a bit more troubling in terms of his sense of entitlement. But if Fox wants an open path to the NHL, then I don't blame him one bit, but we can't address that until after our season is over. As I think about though, it suddenly does make some sense for him to rattle the cage now because it is still possible that our season will be over in 4 days. We all don't think that way, but he probably needs to get on our radar now in case that does happen. 

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On trading Fox, I think our area of "need" and it's getting better all the time, is still elite forward. So I agree with any trade that brings that back even if we packaged any prospects in the system not name Necas. (and maybe Ned).

 

That would not be a second rounder or a prospect like Pu. It would likely not be a "late first rounder" either. Yes, elite talent absolutely lurks in both of those places, but the odds of finding it there are lower than not. I would take an "early first rounder" though. 

 

Fox is a very highly touted talent. This is NOT the college senior type who was undrafted or late drafted and then busted out their senior year. Fox has shown his stuff since Freshman year and has produced on the elite level of a Cale Makar who was the #4 overall pick last year and meets the eyeball test for eye-popping talent. 

 

This is what gets me. This is a guy who's value to team who could sign him is VERY high. We ought to be able to a high first rounder for him in terms of fair trade value. Consider that Fox is already baked at 21, and ready to step in the way Slavin and Pesce did. The problem I see is leverage, and if we have little leverage, we won't GET his full value. 

 

We will have a lot less leverage if he is calling his team. This is where I really hope that I and Lake are right that this is about getting to the NHL next season by far more than it is about picking his team. I'm still going with the idea that is the case. He is basically saying to Waddell, "I would love to play for the Canes, but I don't see a path to the NHL next year in Carolina." If that's the case, then he could work with us to find a team that would sign him to a one way and that has a clear opening in their lineup. Assuming there are quite a few who would take a shot at that much talent, we could then play them against each other. 

 

If he's saying he'll only play for the Rangers? Then IMO we blew it on picking this guy up and Waddell saying signing him is a done deal was bad, and the Rangers can wait him out. And that irks me even more than the system that allows the player to do this. One team having the pick of the litter on guys in this position is just flat unfair. 

 

But for a team to "wait him out" if other teams are in play might not be a good move because they might not get him. 

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I wonder about Toronto in terms of Fox. They still need defense, and they have some tasty high end forwards that they may have trouble paying. I don't want their pick, but I'd take Nylander (have to sweeten the pot quite a bit), or even Kapanen. They will need to clear the playoffs first, which is why I really doubt that Fox completely closes the door before he has to.

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