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In-Season 2018-2019

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11 hours ago, reelpirate5 said:

and it was 60 degrees today........

 

Trying to make the case that losing Staal is THE reason the TEAM improved over the past 22 games is a serious leap.

You can't control the weather. You can control your roster.

 

There is no denying that Jordan has not been the same player since his absence late last season, nor of the fact that his absence has cleared the way for younger, stronger, hungrier players to earn spots. If the org is serious about rewarding performance, Jordan will center the fourth, and Wallmark and McKegg will be 2/3 centers going forward--because there is also truth in the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I've backed off from posting a lot, because we've been rehashing all the same stuff for years.  Time to :deadhorse: again

 

I have said for ages that JStaal wasn't the problem with this team, however lately I have come to think he isn't the answer to the problem.  He is a quality defensive center...but I don't think he is one that fits in with the Canes as they are currently configured.  He isn't fleet of foot (or skate).  "Hands of stone" is not a joke.  He just is not a skilled puck handler.  He has never developed any real chemistry with anyone.  He is big, but he doesn't play big.  He gets hits on the stat sheet, but is not a concern on the ice for the opposition.  He doesn't camp out in front of the goal or drive the goal.  It's hard to argue with the success of the team since he has been out.  There has been a lot less dumping and trying to chase.

 

When he returns to the ice, he will end up in the top 6 sooner than later, eating up 20 minutes of ice time a game.  Yes, we can use his faceoff ability, and that is important.  Is it important enough to make up for the rest of the limitations he has on the ice?  If there is a team out there that thinks he is the answer to their problem and is willing to make a hockey trade, I'd certainly be ok with the team parting ways with him.  He has helped the team miss the playoffs long enough for me to be fine with some more culture change.  I'd much rather see that money spent on another center that offers more scoring potential.  Move him and use his contract money and the assets he brings back to make another move to bring back a legit top 6 talent that fits the team makeup.

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1 minute ago, super_dave_1 said:

I've backed off from posting a lot, because we've been rehashing all the same stuff for years.  Time to :deadhorse: again

 

I have said for ages that JStaal wasn't the problem with this team, however lately I have come to think he isn't the answer to the problem.  He is a quality defensive center...but I don't think he is one that fits in with the Canes as they are currently configured.  He isn't fleet of foot (or skate).  "Hands of stone" is not a joke.  He just is not a skilled puck handler.  He has never developed any real chemistry with anyone.  He is big, but he doesn't play big.  He gets hits on the stat sheet, but is not a concern on the ice for the opposition.  He doesn't camp out in front of the goal or drive the goal.  It's hard to argue with the success of the team since he has been out.  There has been a lot less dumping and trying to chase.

 

When he returns to the ice, he will end up in the top 6 sooner than later, eating up 20 minutes of ice time a game.  Yes, we can use his faceoff ability, and that is important.  Is it important enough to make up for the rest of the limitations he has on the ice?  If there is a team out there that thinks he is the answer to their problem and is willing to make a hockey trade, I'd certainly be ok with the team parting ways with him.  He has helped the team miss the playoffs long enough for me to be fine with some more culture change.  I'd much rather see that money spent on another center that offers more scoring potential.  Move him and use his contract money and the assets he brings back to make another move to bring back a legit top 6 talent that fits the team makeup.

It will be interesting to see how Rod uses Staal.

 

I feel like Aho has excelled matched up against top lines.  They score and have done a good job at stopping top lines.  

 

Do we keep it that way or go back to Aho being the number one O line?  I feel like Aho is such a competitor that he raises his game when he has to match up against the top line. 

I'd like to see the Aho's line with any combo of Turbo, Ferland, Nino and Williams against the top line and the Staal line with the other two wingers.  Tell Staal to score.  He needs to park his big behind in front of the net or be ready to feed Nino.  Staal has hands of stone but tell him we need him to drive offense.  Win the big draws and drive offense. 

 

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Staal isnt going to park himself in front of any goal coming off a concussion. If he didn't do it before he's not going to do it now. His goal is to stay healthy and not put himself in harm's way. The team doesn't need a tentative skater at this point.

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19 minutes ago, slapshot02 said:

Staal isnt going to park himself in front of any goal coming off a concussion. If he didn't do it before he's not going to do it now. His goal is to stay healthy and not put himself in harm's way. The team doesn't need a tentative skater at this point.

He's never done that to begin with.  He isn't starting now, concussion or not.

 

They need to put a continuous loop of Johan Franzen goals playing in the locker room.  There's a guy that made a career out of playing in front of the goal.

Edited by super_dave_1

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I think Jordan Staal should start out on the 4th line and very slowly move up.   His career average for goals is .24 per game and his point totals average is around .52 per game.  So what he has a great face off percentage.   We now are number 29 in the NHL for face offs but have one of the best records since January in the league.   One person does make a difference and when you chew up the playing time that Staal manages to chew up without any points it makes a huge difference.   In my humble opinion this team looks better without Staal and as far as I am concerned he is one of the last pieces of the old guard that needs to go away.   Nothing personal but for the money we are paying him the production just is not there.    I had a friend of mine that went to the same church as Jordan.    He said he and Eric were really awesome church members and very humble men.  My wife and I met Eric at an event once and he was a really nice guy.  Jordan comes off the same way to me.  I can see why a team would be reluctant to move a man of such great character.   But hockey games are not won by character but by goals.  O.K. - I'm done.  Have a blessed day !!

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Like I said, I’ll welcome Staal back but it needs to be in a third or fourth line role and during situational times.

 

Then again that type of player doesn’t make close to 6 million per.

 

I would rather allocate those funds elsewhere for a different type of player...say...for example...one that can score.

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If and when he returns, Jordan Staal will center the 3rd or 4th line and take most face-offs in sort handed situations.  The best trade deadline scenario is for the Canes to pick up a #2 center, say Kevin Hayes in exchange for Justin Faulk.  I know he is a rental, but making the playoffs this season is critical to the Canes culture of winning moving forward.  Keep Ferland, bring on Fox, add a C, move Wallmark down a notch.

 

In sum, add 3 players for the stretch run (new C, Staal, and Fox), subtract Faulk, and sit a couple of guys currently playing on the 4th line.

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2 minutes ago, beboplar said:

If and when he returns, Jordan Staal will center the 3rd or 4th line and take most face-offs in sort handed situations.  The best trade deadline scenario is for the Canes to pick up a #2 center, say Kevin Hayes in exchange for Justin Faulk.  I know he is a rental, but making the playoffs this season is critical to the Canes culture of winning moving forward.  Keep Ferland, bring on Fox, add a C, move Wallmark down a notch.

 

In sum, add 3 players for the stretch run (new C, Staal, and Fox), subtract Faulk, and sit a couple of guys currently playing on the 4th line.

I disagree I dont think they are at the point to get rentals. The playoffs are huge and would be great for the team but a hockey trade is where they are at not a rental trade. If you make a rental trade this year you lose an offseason asset to improve the team long term. Unless we get a rental with a draft pick or a lower level prospect they shouldnt bother.

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The thing is, Staal has a NMC.  He and his wife have been here for 7 years and given their faith they're presumably well integrated into their church and possibly community. And I don't get the feeling that he's the type guy for whom winning is everything, i.e., one who might jump at the opportunity to waive and go to a legit current Cup contender right now.  

 

What are the odds he'd waive?  Perhaps if he and Eric had an opportunity to play together again somewhere down the line?

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To me Staal's main issue is his salary and role. When he was traded for, he was projected as and paid like, a very good 2C. Well very good 2C's produce more points than he has managed to actually produce. Contrary to some, I still think there was evidence that Jordan might be able to get there points-wise. His last season in Pittsburgh he scored at a .868 ppg pace through the playoffs. He only put up 50 points in the regular season due to missing games from injury, but that was a 71 point pace. And he wasn't playing with Malkin or Crosby. 

 

And he's had ppg stretches here too, including one with wingers Nestracil and Nordstrom. 

 

But just has not been able to sustain that, and has, in fact been about a 45 point guy with just under 20 goals. 

 

But he does slam the door shut on the other team's top lines. I still maintain the notion, that, especially at home, you put Jordan out there with Slavin and or Pesce vs top lines and play them even. Then blow past them with your other two main lines and scoring D men. 

 

The trick then is fitting all of that, including a new dynamic forward, under the cap whilst paying your 3C $6 million/year. 

 

But I'm not so quick to move Jordan out of here unless we bring back something better. This is where I get back to Mark Stone as an example of a two way player, but one with high end scoring ability. If we had a winger like that, maybe we get by without Jordan and even a tad weak down the middle. 

 

I don't know what we can do within the cap, though, but I'd still keep Staal if at all possible. Hopefully moving one or even two D man salaries out, and using Fleury, Fox, Bean, or other lower priced D men, maybe still get one stud forward in here. 

 

Aside from money, the key is, again, playing Jordan like a 3C. Putting our best offensive wingers on the two other top 9 lines. Can Brind'Amour lay off the Jordan is our best player candy and use him correctly? I think so, but who knows?

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2 hours ago, remkin said:

But he does slam the door shut on the other team's top lines. I still maintain the notion, that, especially at home, you put Jordan out there with Slavin and or Pesce vs top lines and play them even. Then blow past them with your other two main lines and scoring D men. 

 

Aho's line is doing a fine job of that right now, WHILE PRODUCING POINTS.  Why go with Staal against top lines and get limited potential for offense?  I understand what you are saying but it makes no sense to me.

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8 minutes ago, AWACSooner said:

Oilers are saying Pujujarvi is in play

Hmm. Methinks that guy is a fixer upper. 

Do you buy low? Certainly not sending anything back of great significance.

Or

Do you say ok, its an opportunity to move a Faulk just to get rid of them and you take that as part of the value of the trade?

He is only 20.

Edited by sleekfeeder

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5 minutes ago, sleekfeeder said:

Hmm. Methinks that guy is a fixer upper. 

Do you buy low? Certainly not sending anything back of great significance.

Or

Do you say ok, its an opportunity to move a Faulk just to get rid of them and you take that as part of the value of the trade?

He is only 20.

I understand his play the last few years has some fans with a feeling of burnt bridges. By why would you want to get rid of the Faulk from this year "just to get rid of him".

 

To me he has been their 3rd best defender (boarding on 2nd) all season long. Someone posted something about him in the last few days making a comment about how this year proves he had been loafing the last few years. I dont agree with that. It may be a correct thought but it also maybe where his fit was in Peters game plan, or that he just wasnt suited well for what he was asked to do. This year he has more trust in his teammates and his role. Maybe this is the Faulk we have as long as Roddy is HC? Its kind of hard to say. Personally if I were GM and I moved Faulk, Pesce, or Hamilton I damn well better be getting back a return worth what I would lose and based of their projected worth next season or I would pass.  

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8 minutes ago, Derailed75 said:

I understand his play the last few years has some fans with a feeling of burnt bridges. By why would you want to get rid of the Faulk from this year "just to get rid of him".

 

To me he has been their 3rd best defender (boarding on 2nd) all season long. Someone posted something about him in the last few days making a comment about how this year proves he had been loafing the last few years. I dont agree with that. It may be a correct thought but it also maybe where his fit was in Peters game plan, or that he just wasnt suited well for what he was asked to do. This year he has more trust in his teammates and his role. Maybe this is the Faulk we have as long as Roddy is HC? Its kind of hard to say. Personally if I were GM and I moved Faulk, Pesce, or Hamilton I damn well better be getting back a return worth what I would lose and based of their projected worth next season or I would pass.  

I said "a Faulk", meaning "a defender". Throw Fluery in, in his place. IDK or care if the return is right. The point is we have a bum-ton of defenders and they can't all stay and we need offense beyond our first line. If our scoring pace is indicative of what this team can actually do with the current roster, on a continuing basis, then paint me wrong and shocked. I tend me believe we will need more up front, if this team is serious about Cup contention at some point, or management is just blowing smoke. 

Edited by sleekfeeder

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3 minutes ago, sleekfeeder said:

I said "a Faulk", meaning "a defender". Throw Fluery in, in his place. IDK or care if the return is right. The point is we have a bum-ton of defenders and they can't all stay and we need offense beyond our first line. If our scoring pace is indicative of what this team can actually do on a regular basis, then paint me wrong and shocked. I tend me believe we will need more up front, if this team is serious about Cup contention at some point, or management is just blowing smoke. 

That I agree with. It may end up being more prudent to hold on to everyone till the offseason and swing a better deal. Doesnt really seem like many good options for C and wingers out there before the deadline. After the draft there will be guys getting displaced and possible cap casualties and teams sheading  salaries to make ends meet and the market will be more open.

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56 minutes ago, coastal_caniac said:

 

Aho's line is doing a fine job of that right now, WHILE PRODUCING POINTS.  Why go with Staal against top lines and get limited potential for offense?  I understand what you are saying but it makes no sense to me.

My idea is that Staal goes even against their top line then Aho goes nuts against their lower lines (as does our 2a line). We neutralize a team's top line while ours is free to reak havoc on their lower lines. Considering many teams, even really good ones (Boston, Colorado) really only have one really good line, if we take them out, and then look to Aho's line and our 2a line to beat the rest of their team, it just seems like a winning formula. It would work less well on the road where the match ups are harder. Maybe I'm missing something in this, but that's where I'm coming from. 

 

There may be other weaknesses in that plan, but the main one I see is devoting $6 million/year to your shut down center is not a great cost effectiveness strategy.

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17 minutes ago, remkin said:

Considering many teams, even really good ones (Boston, Colorado) really only have one really good line, if we take them out, and then look to Aho's line and our 2a line to beat the rest of their team, it just seems like a winning formula.

You’ll see another example tomorrow with Dallas...

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12 minutes ago, remkin said:

My idea is that Staal goes even against their top line then Aho goes nuts against their lower lines (as does our 2a line). We neutralize a team's top line while ours is free to reak havoc on their lower lines. Considering many teams, even really good ones (Boston, Colorado) really only have one really good line, if we take them out, and then look to Aho's line and our 2a line to beat the rest of their team, it just seems like a winning formula. It would work less well on the road where the match ups are harder. Maybe I'm missing something in this, but that's where I'm coming from. 

 

There may be other weaknesses in that plan, but the main one I see is devoting $6 million/year to your shut down center is not a great cost effectiveness strategy.

 

The one thing you may be missing in your rationale is that other team's lower lines may well be better defensively than their top line.  If you move Aho away from the other teams top line, how often does that put him against their checking line?  On the other hand, he's presumably gonna have to spend less time worrying about D against lesser lines, so maybe that offsets some of the above?  

 

I don't have a strong feel either way, just articulating some of the factors that come to mind.

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15 minutes ago, LakeLivin said:

 

The one thing you may be missing in your rationale is that other team's lower lines may well be better defensively than their top line.  If you move Aho away from the other teams top line, how often does that put him against their checking line?  On the other hand, he's presumably gonna have to spend less time worrying about D against lesser lines, so maybe that offsets some of the above?  

 

I don't have a strong feel either way, just articulating some of the factors that come to mind.

 

This.  When you put a defensive line against their top line, they do the same against us.  We are winning the "O on O battle", not so much the "O on D and D on O battle".

 

I differ when you can put the 4th line on their top line which is what Lavi did a lot.  Then it is just too sweet to be +1 on the other 3 lines.

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I get why a lot of people are "down" on Jordan's value and want to move him, but I think there is far more there than we have been able to see. This team has been so deprived of quality talent so long we have forgotten what it looks like and how yo use it. The TSA line has been the only time I can say Jordan was put with high caliber wingers and I think we can all agree the results were great. More often we have rolled Jordan out there with a couple bodies and asked him to shut the other team down while trying to let Jeff pot goals from another line.

Before I write him off, I would ease Jordan up to a line with NN and JW to see what they can do. I think there experience would cause havoc for other teams, and keep the speed and success of Aho, Turbo, and Ferland causing opponents to chase the threat they fear most.

I think RBA's comments about Jordan being the best player on the team stems from Jordan working his butt off to play the game the coach asks him to play. Unfortunately that has been a lot of "Take these two 4th lines and stop the best players in the league". If things don't go well, try to find an off season trade that Jordan will sign off on.

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