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In-season trades and player moves

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Since we have an owner that has said it is his job to make the team better and since trade rumors have already begun and will continue until trade deadline I guess we need a place to talk trades. Trade talk is mostly rumor and supposition but it is part of the game. 

 

 

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Four games into the season with the team off to a hot start it is difficult for me to think we will upset the cart with a move. Yet the recent Nylander situation has us smack dab in the middle of the speculation.

 

I read speculation the Leafs would want Slavin in a Nylander deal. Fat chance but that puts our favorite whipping boy Justin Faulk back in the conversation as an alternative offer.

 

The Score this morning made a case for us going the offer sheet route. theScore

Quote

Offer: 5 years, $8-million AAV ($40M total)
Compensation: One first-round pick, one second-round pick, one third-round pick

 

 

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I read that Toronto has the cap space to match an offer sheet, but that doesn't mean they would. I think Nylander has to agree too, but if it gets close to the deadline, he might. It can't hurt that we're looking good too. I would gladly give up a first, second and third rounder for Nylander. We have so many prospects already, and we'd be such a super young team that between all of the prospects and Nylander himself, we could easily skip one first rounder (still have 2 seconds). 

 

Offer sheets are one of the most talked about, least executed things out there. Yet who would be more likely to do something unconventional than one Tom Dundon? 

 

Also, we could threaten an offer sheet on one hand and a trade on the other.

 

I agree though, we'd be nuts to give up Slavin, and I'd go so far as to say that he's as untouchable as Aho IMO. Slavin should bring back Marner or a 1C. Nylander would be an amazing addition, just propel us to legitimacy, but he is not in that category yet. The amazing thing though, is that he has that upside. 

 

OK, we all have sides on the Faulk thing. My own opinion is that teams that need D on their D, are simply not interested in Faulk. If they were, he'd be gone already. Whatever one thinks of him, he's been open trade bait, so the team has tried to move him at least a couple of times. It's clear what side of the Faulk line I'm on. I'd add to him if Toronto had any interest, but my guess is they just don't want Faulk. 

 

What I'm wondering is if they'd want anyone else? I think Hamilton and Slavin are not available. DeHaan? Pesce? Fleury? I would hate to move any of them, but Nylander is very high end. He's put up 61 points two straight years including as a 20 year old. He was number three on the team in plus minus last year at +20. Whatever one thinks of +/- it at least suggests he wasn't cheating to get his 61 points. He can play center. This would be a massive get for this team. We also have Bean and hopefully Fox in the wings, in addition to Carrick, and McKeown who would be at least solid even this year. 

 

If we can move Faulk plus for Nylander? HUGE up. But we should look at just about any D man not named Slavin IMO. 

 

Offer sheet? If that worked, it would be, I think the second time in recent history, but hey even better.

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BTW Dundon has mentioned the importance of teams having star players. Going after Nylander (vs someone else) is in line with that. 

 

Also, I've wanted us to be the ones to take advantage of at least ONE of these guys who teams are having trouble keeping only to watch them all go elsewhere over years. Pull this off, and that all goes away as we'd have gotten one. 

 

Also, imaging Necas on Nylander's wing and vice versa this year and beyond.

 

Svech, Necas, Aho, Teravainen, Nylander? Years of that? Fold in Foegele, Ferland and Staal? That is league leading firepower, especially next year. This is years of competing for cups. This is what the organization says it wants. 

 

And we have so much potential in the system on D, we could give up a guy. 

 

All we'd need after this is a goalie. (assuming Mrazek or Darling don't grab it).

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The more Matthews scores the less amount of money Toronto has to keep Nylander.  IF Matthews decides to take a pay cut at take 12 million AAV, add in Tavares at 11, Nylander at 7, and Marner at   8.  38 million of a 82 million cap for 4 players.  44 million for ~18 players.  2.45 million per player.

 

I’d do 5 x 7.5 million for Nylander. 8 just seems like too much.  Him between Foegele or Necas and Svech would be sweet.  Toronto would match but that is a million more a year than they want to spend.

Edited by gocanes0506

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Keep in mind that any offer to Nylander is going to impact the Aho negotiations.  I'm pretty sure that in the opinion of most, Aho is worth more than Nylander, so if you offered Nylander $8m, doesn't that set the bar for Aho at $8m+ ?  Because of Aho, I don't see how you could offer/ pay Nylander more than low 7's on a long term deal.

 

From what I've read, the only Leafs/ Canes deal for Nylander that makes sense to both parties involves Pesce.  That's a tough one for me to decide.  On the one hand, compared to every other team in the NHL we have an excess of D, Nylander has a high floor, could become elite, and has the potential to make us one of the stronger teams down the middle for much of the next decade.  On the other hand, Pesce is imo one of the better defenders in the league, is on a steal of a contract (Nylander is gonna cost), appears to be exactly what you want on the team personality wise, and I believe that Pesce is poised to show a boost in offensive production that few have anticipated (I'm not saying he will be another Thornton, just that he will put up more points). 

 

If a couple years ago you'd said that Pesce might bring back Nylander most people would have called you crazy, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's a deal that might be out there if we want it.

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39 minutes ago, LakeLivin said:

If a couple years ago you'd said that Pesce might bring back Nylander most people would have called you crazy, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's a deal that might be out there if we want it.

 

If it is out there it would break up the log jam in the 5-6 Dspot. I'm having trouble believing Nylander is on our radar. Cost is one problem for me to overcome and our abundance forward prospects is another. Still this is a new day in Canes land.

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With the offensive defenders we have as our only prospects, I wouldn’t trade Pesce. Also we are going to have a young team for another 3-5 seasons.  A confident defensive defender will be good for the goalies.  Also a #3 defender for 4 million a year, also a great reason not to trade him.

 

its Faulk or Dougie for me that moves.  Faulk’s contract is up first.  

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1 hour ago, LakeLivin said:

Keep in mind that any offer to Nylander is going to impact the Aho negotiations.  I'm pretty sure that in the opinion of most, Aho is worth more than Nylander, so if you offered Nylander $8m, doesn't that set the bar for Aho at $8m+ ?  Because of Aho, I don't see how you could offer/ pay Nylander more than low 7's on a long term deal.

 

From what I've read, the only Leafs/ Canes deal for Nylander that makes sense to both parties involves Pesce.  That's a tough one for me to decide.  On the one hand, compared to every other team in the NHL we have an excess of D, Nylander has a high floor, could become elite, and has the potential to make us one of the stronger teams down the middle for much of the next decade.  On the other hand, Pesce is imo one of the better defenders in the league, is on a steal of a contract (Nylander is gonna cost), appears to be exactly what you want on the team personality wise, and I believe that Pesce is poised to show a boost in offensive production that few have anticipated (I'm not saying he will be another Thornton, just that he will put up more points). 

 

If a couple years ago you'd said that Pesce might bring back Nylander most people would have called you crazy, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's a deal that might be out there if we want it.

Tough call. Aho and Nylander's contracts should be fairly close. Nylander's forte so far has been in assists and I believe he can be a more prolific goal scorer in the future. Nylander's stats earned him a ranking of 111th in the NHL last year with 20 goals an 60th in assists with 41. 7+ mil for Nylander means that Dundon can't expect Aho to take a discount. The bar would be set. Nylander certainly gives us way more options from a center and wing perspective and addition to more goals scored. I'd prefer draft and prospects to be offered over giving up our youth D corps. 

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17 minutes ago, slapshot02 said:

Tough call. Aho and Nylander's contracts should be fairly close. Nylander's forte so far has been in assists and I believe he can be a more prolific goal scorer in the future. Nylander's stats earned him a ranking of 111th in the NHL last year with 20 goals an 60th in assists with 41. 7+ mil for Nylander means that Dundon can't expect Aho to take a discount. The bar would be set. Nylander certainly gives us way more options from a center and wing perspective and addition to more goals scored. I'd prefer draft and prospects to be offered over giving up our youth D corps. 

I separate Pesce and Slavin as readily as I do Aho and TT. Which is never.

 

When we're down to it and need stops, we don't mess around with Hamilton/Slavin or Faulk/de Haan. We send out Slavin and Pesce. Moving either would be a big mistake, IMO.

 

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26 minutes ago, super_dave_1 said:

I can't see the logic of moving Slavin or Pesce with their quality of play and the deals they are on.  Makes no sense to me.

That’s because it’s nonsensical. As is giving up future high draft picks thinking we are cup ready this year. Yes we’ve had a nice start with average goaltending crappy special teams and d not up to snuff. Hang on and see where we are after 20 games.

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Toronto would have to be out of their mind to trade nylander to us  for Faulk .   pesce   and maybe a 1st round pick   could maybe work .  but    i think a more fair trade would be Rask  and Faulk and TVR  for  nylander  and their 3rd round pick .    

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As much as I’d love to sign Nylander, I don’t think we should trade for an up and coming young player without a contract until we sign Aho. Also, Dundon traded Lindholm and Hanifin due to inability to reach agreement on value for a contract. Why would we trade for a Toronto player with the same issue? 

 

As to trading Faulk, we need to move a defenseman sometime even if in Faulk’s case, we get a lower reward than we would like. Why would Fox sign with us when we have the #7 overall draft pick from 4 years ago sitting in the press box night after night, another 1st round pick in Charlotte, plus guys like McKeown and Carrick seemingly stuck in Charlotte? Of course it’s great to have depth in your system, and we could just let Faulk and TVR play out their contracts, but it would be nice to get something back now. I guess there are worse problems to have.

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I am not deep into the Nylander thing, but I ask how much of his holdout is really an indication of a problem child? Toronto is really in a bind. They have Tavares, and they are going to have to pay Matthews as much or more, and Mitch Marner is going to command just off that. This is just me projecting, but just looking at the forces at play it seems that Toronto has to low ball Nylander to keep the other three. Marner can easily be a point per game player and some think he may actually produce more points that Tavares or Matthews in some years. Marner's camp has already signaled that they aren't going to take much less than Matthews (I guess we don't want him either then). 

 

Tavares, Matthews and Marner, will probably end up costing them $30 million/year. There are currently 7 players in the NHL with cap hits over $10 million. The Leafs could have 3 of those one year from now. 

 

Nylander is the odd man out, but he is one heck of a forward. It's just that the Leafs, in winning the Tavares lottery, and the Auston Matthews lottery, and picking smart with #4 overall in the McEichel draft just might have too much riches too soon. It is a long shot that we could leverage this, but I've been hoping for all of my years as a Canes fan that we could take advantage of something like this. I guess Francis did with the TT move on a smaller scale, but this one would be bigger.

 

I freely admit that I don't know for sure that Nylander isn't just being a primadonna asking for way too much. I just know the guy is a very good hockey player with a huge upside. If he is by all other measures a hard worker and a good teammate, I'd still want him.

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13 hours ago, remkin said:

I am not deep into the Nylander thing, but I ask how much of his holdout is really an indication of a problem child?

This is why I have zero interest in Nylander. If you like your job, you do it and trust that the money will take care of itself, I don't care what the job is. And if you're unwilling to lace 'em up and be a part of what is clearly something special, I definitely don't want you around during a losing streak, let alone a losing season.

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15 minutes ago, Bonivan said:

According to this https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/william-nylander-not-asked-trade-maple-leafs-not-shopping/ Toronto suggested $20M fo 5 years to Nylander. So I guess the issue is not with him. Looks like discount for which Toronto is asking  is way too big

Good to input that information into the equation of this player, and that puts a little different light on the situation, for me at least. Suggests to me that rather than prima donnaish, he's just aware of the writing on the wall and is aware of his value? No reason to stay in a system for 5 or so years where he's 4th in pecking order. The Tavares reach that Toronto bulled into very well may have upset what could have been a fine tuned machine for years to come, relying on their young, developing corps. Of course the lure of The Cup may, and are must, weigh heavily into this young man's(Nylander) decision. No doubt, his agent has other aspirations? 

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40 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

he Tavares reach that Toronto bulled into very well may have upset what could have been a fine tuned machine for years to come,

IMO every Canadian Team is so desperate to bring the cup back to their country that don' think rationally(cough cough Montreal).  Toronto has gone all out to win now.  If they don't they will be trapped in Cap hell like some other teams .  Or even if they do.

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15 minutes ago, cc said:

IMO every Canadian Team is so desperate to bring the cup back to their country that don' think rationally(cough cough Montreal).  Toronto has gone all out to win now.  If they don't they will be trapped in Cap hell like some other teams .  Or even if they do.

They’ll get caught in cap hell. 11 for Tavares and at least that for Matthews.  22 million on 2 players with Marner too.  30 million at least for 3 players. Yikes.  That is Chicago level shenanigans were they will be selling off Kapanen and a bad contract for little and hoping to fill the bottom 9 with aged veterans who want a shot at the cup for little salary.

 

they MAY get a couple cups but the cap issues will catch up to them like Chicago and LA. 

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2 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

This is why I have zero interest in Nylander. If you like your job, you do it and trust that the money will take care of itself, I don't care what the job is. And if you're unwilling to lace 'em up and be a part of what is clearly something special, I definitely don't want you around during a losing streak, let alone a losing season.

Sorry for the self-quote, but I need to moderate this now that I've actually read up on the situation.

 

#1: Nylander deserves to get paid, and as others (and the reported offer, linked above, suggest) when the Maple Leafs got Tavares, they decided that they could jerk Nylander around. 

 

#2: That being said, Nylander's starting point in the negotiations is ridiculous. $8.5 million is not happening for any winger coming off his ELC. But $4 million is an insult based on what Nylander has already done, and the fact that the Leafs are calling it an "offer" (with a straight face) only proves point #1.

 

#3: Based on all this, I take back my negative comment about Nylander's holdout. Under the CBA, he and his agent have few cards to play, so they are calling out reality: The Leafs want to have their cake (Tavares) and eat it too (avoid its inevitable negative effect on their payroll). They can't have it both ways, and with $13 million in cap space, they are looking cheaper with each passing moment that they don't admit Nylander is worth $6 million and get him signed.

 

#4: As for the Canes' part in all this, I don't think they feel like they need a winger. They need a center, and if they can't find one on the trade market, they (frankly) already have guys who are much better prepared to play in the NHL than Martin Necas, including any of McKegg, Maenalanen, Roy, Brown, or Bishop.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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