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In-season trades and player moves

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Just now, Canes06cup17 said:

Something is better than nothing.  I blame the NHL for letting these punks choose their team. 

And it all started with Lindros!

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Eh, who cares? If he's a malcontent and obviously buys in to a "sense of entitlement" that many of the pros these days are raised upon, often by us their adoring promoters, than why does a team like the Canes seem to be evolving into, where everyone cares for each other, need someone like that, and its his loss. Sorry rem, with that apparent attitude, than his personality would appear to be a perfect fit for the Rangers, thus I doubt he would ever be happy here, or produce like you suspect. And I also read someone post that "he'd worked HARD for it, so deserves to choose where he goes", to which I say baloney. I MEAN IF THAT'S THE RATIONALE, then everyone of these hockey players should be allowed to do so, as I dare say that they all work hard to get where they are?   

Edited by KJUNKANE
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56 minutes ago, AWACSooner said:

Btw, TSN is reporting he told the Flames last summer that he wouldn’t sign with them either, which is why he was packaged in the deal...so that’s TWO teams he spurned!

A team that won its division and is on the ups and a team still fighting for the Cup that he could potentially play on immediately since we are overrun with injuries weren’t good enough for him.

 

Happy he is ok playing on a team that is at the very early start of a rebuild in an awesome, albeit astronomically expense city where his rookie contract won’t go far. Luckily he’s from the Island, so he can move into his childhood home to save some $$$

 

this is clearly more about playing for the name on the sweater than on a good team. 😂

 

 

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I agree with the sentiment about the guy picking his team. That is just majorly irritating. The thing is, we took him knowing that, and were told 99% we'd sign him. Now that turns into a high second round pick instead of an elite prospect. 

 

All due respect to our run of nice second round picks, the upside on Fox is way beyond what a second round pick is typically worth, even a high second rounder. 

 

Now, yes, we have by my count 3 second rounders this year, and possibly 2 next year. So that is good, for 4 years from now, maybe. It's too soon to know about our latest second rounders, Kuokannen, Martin, Luostarinen, and Drury. But not likely any of them are major contributors soon. Aho was a rarity. Here's the rest of the second rounders his year: http://hurricanes.ice.nhl.com/club/draftstats.htm?year=2015&round=2&supl=N. Still, we've gotten way more NHL players from the second round than is typical. If we keep that up, this will be good, well down the road, but good. If we drop back to more normal odds, we may not get any NHL players from them.

 

I look at our team though, and our pipeline and see lots of guys that can be good players, but getting that great player tends to happen in the first round, Aho excepted, and because our system is so good, that's what we really could use the most. A game breaker.

 

So why bring this up? Because that's what Fox probably will be.

 

I get it. It's done, the team is having a phenomenal run, so why even worry about it. The guy wants to call his team so blank him. I don't even disagree. But for someone who follows our prospects with great interest, this guy was IMO our second best prospect after Necas. So losing him for a second rounder, even two of them? Not great. OK, fine. But not great. Could have been worse. Could have played chicken with him and gotten nothing, but still, as with Skinner, the return does not equal the player. 

 

Anyways, we move on. That gaggle of second rounders might turn into something or maybe, never seems to be, but maybe, we can package one or more of those with a prospect, even a player, and either move up or get a player. 

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Hamilton, Ferland and 2 draft picks for Hanifin and Lindy. We would of made that trade anyway. I don't wish the kid ill. In fact I never counted on him in the first place.

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1 hour ago, remkin said:

Because that's what Fox probably will be.

Pure speculation. Sorry but this is crystal ball stuff. But we will see

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1 hour ago, cc said:

Pure speculation. Sorry but this is crystal ball stuff. But we will see

Unfortunately we will see. No prospect is guaranteed, but  it's far from crystal ball stuff. It's based on reasonable estimates and projections from actual production in comparable leagues and scouting reports. Just like some were confident Aho would be what he has become based on his actual production in Finland and World Juniors and scouting reports. The probability of prospects becoming solid or even star NHL players is inexact, but generally predictable, especially at the highest levels. There are misses for sure, but the consensus guys and guys who put up outlier numbers usually hit. 

 

Yes, there are some spectacular flameouts like Nail Yakupov, but they are the exception when dealing with guys who have produced spectacularly and also pass the scout's eye test.

 

BTW if predicting the likelihood of success of prospects was crystal ball stuff, then the idea of expanding and paying for a robust scouting staff would seem like a pretty big waste. 

 

I can't be sure that this guy will be all he can be. There are exceptions and injuries, but if I made bets on only guys that were consensus elite becoming solid NHL players, I'd lose a few bets, but make a lot of money overall.

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2 hours ago, OBXer said:

Hamilton, Ferland and 2 draft picks for Hanifin and Lindy. We would of made that trade anyway. I don't wish the kid ill. In fact I never counted on him in the first place.

The Canes are dealing in the real world.  They traded for his rights in order to sign him.  He is a RH defenseman, and a year down the line when Faulk and TVR's deals are done they imagined him, along with Pesce and Hamilton as their RH defensemen.  When they acquired Hamilton, I thought Faulk's days in the team were either numbered, or his role would be diminished.  I was 100% wrong about that.  Faulk's role has not changed, and his effectiveness has blossomed.  I now wonder whether he will continue on as a Cane beyond next season.  

Fox may have looked over the Canes blue line, with Faulk, Hamilton, Pesce, TVR, and even McKewon to compete against on the right side, along with Slavin, de Haan, Fleury, and Bean on the left side, and said no way, Jose.  He controlled his rights, so getting two 2nd round picks (assuming he plays 30 games next season) is a huge win for the Canes.

They were not going to give either Hanifin or Lindholm the kind of money they got.  They may, or may not retain Ferland.  That is ok, if they don't there is money to spend on another player who fits the mold.  The movement of players, with softer players such as Skinner moving out and more physical players such as Martinook and Ferland moving in, is redefining the roster.  Management knows what it is doing.

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I will say that the committee is looking pretty golden right now. Overall the move to get the culture right, overall has worked. In that vein, if Fox is a prima donna who didn't really want to play here, then it's easier to deal with this, and in fact we are better off moving him. (That said, you still want to get value. "But he would only sign with The Rangers". OK, but that's why Calgary traded him to us. They knew he wouldn't sign. But we thought he would. But we were wrong). 

 

Even though the "addition by subtraction" thing seems to be working, it is still fair to judge the return of a trade. In theory Skinner would still be just as gone if we'd have gotten a first rounder. 

 

Would we really trade Hanifin and Lindholm, for Dougie and a high second round pick and a second or third round pick, and one year of Ferland? That's a though one. Hanifin and Lindholm were #5 picks and Lindholm broke out this year in Calgary. I mean I know we want to feel good, but the guy had 27 goals and 78 points (that some of us predicted for him two years ago, but he waited one more year to break out). This is top 30 forwards. 

 

But I think Dougy has become a top 30 D man. 

 

So, Dougy = Lindholm. 

 

So does a year of Ferland and one maybe two second rounders = Hanifin? Probably not. But we don't know yet. I think Fox may end up being better than Hanifin, so that would have crushed this trade for us (at least in my crystal ball).

 

But Ferland did bring the right attitude and physicality to a team that needed it, when they needed it, and we were able to rid the team of guys that the committee thought needed to be ridded. 

 

I think even more than the money Hanifin and Lindholm wanted (Lindy was clearly worth it as it turned out) the committee, and my guess is Rod Brind'Amour wanted certain types out, and certain types in. And it is hard to argue with the results of that. 

 

Lindholm, Hanifin and Skinner out. Ferland, Martinook, Dougie in. 

 

Despite ALL of that. If Waddell does not convince Minnesota to give us Nino for Rask, and does not pick up McE on waivers? We are not discussing this Fox thing as calmly right now. But we did make those moves and we are here, so hey, no big deal.

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23 minutes ago, remkin said:

I will say that the committee is looking pretty golden right now. Overall the move to get the culture right, overall has worked. In that vein, if Fox is a prima donna who didn't really want to play here, then it's easier to deal with this, and in fact we are better off moving him. (That said, you still want to get value. "But he would only sign with The Rangers". OK, but that's why Calgary traded him to us. They knew he wouldn't sign. But we thought he would. But we were wrong). 

 

Even though the "addition by subtraction" thing seems to be working, it is still fair to judge the return of a trade. In theory Skinner would still be just as gone if we'd have gotten a first rounder. 

 

Would we really trade Hanifin and Lindholm, for Dougie and a high second round pick and a second or third round pick, and one year of Ferland? That's a though one. Hanifin and Lindholm were #5 picks and Lindholm broke out this year in Calgary. I mean I know we want to feel good, but the guy had 27 goals and 78 points (that some of us predicted for him two years ago, but he waited one more year to break out). This is top 30 forwards. 

 

But I think Dougy has become a top 30 D man. 

 

So, Dougy = Lindholm. 

 

So does a year of Ferland and one maybe two second rounders = Hanifin? Probably not. But we don't know yet. I think Fox may end up being better than Hanifin, so that would have crushed this trade for us (at least in my crystal ball).

 

But Ferland did bring the right attitude and physicality to a team that needed it, when they needed it, and we were able to rid the team of guys that the committee thought needed to be ridded. 

 

I think even more than the money Hanifin and Lindholm wanted (Lindy was clearly worth it as it turned out) the committee, and my guess is Rod Brind'Amour wanted certain types out, and certain types in. And it is hard to argue with the results of that. 

 

Lindholm, Hanifin and Skinner out. Ferland, Martinook, Dougie in. 

 

Despite ALL of that. If Waddell does not convince Minnesota to give us Nino for Rask, and does not pick up McE on waivers? We are not discussing this Fox thing as calmly right now. But we did make those moves and we are here, so hey, no big deal.

I think what you really meant to ask was would you trade 1 year of Lindholm and 1 year of Hanifin for 2 years of Hamilton, 1 year of Ferland, a high 2nd round pick, and a 3rd/probable 2nd round pick.  I would.

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22 minutes ago, beboplar said:

I think what you really meant to ask was would you trade 1 year of Lindholm and 1 year of Hanifin for 2 years of Hamilton, 1 year of Ferland, a high 2nd round pick, and a 3rd/probable 2nd round pick.  I would.

No, I know it is assumed we couldn't sign Lindholm or Hanfin, but really we couldn't sign them for what they wanted vs. what we wanted to pay them. They were RFA's their only recourse was to sit out. We could have signed them. Plenty of cap space. We just didn't want to sign them. 

 

I'm happy that Hamilton has come around, because at the start of the year, when he was admittedly playing with a broken finger and learning a new team, the guy that was the main return on the trade was looking pretty shaky. 

 

On average about 1 in 3 high second rounders become solid NHL players, 1/4 of all second rounders. So that is the crap shoot. We've done better than usual lately. 

 

But IF those picks flame out, and we don't sign Ferland, it would end up being Hamilton for Lindholm and Hanifin. It's really hard to predict us winning that trade IMO. But we don't know what will become of those picks, and Hamilton seems to be a top 30 D man, and together with Slavin, we are good at the top of the D, so we'll be fine.

 

In my ideal world though, we'd move a D man for one more top forward, sign Fox, and go from there with Dougy still very much on board. I can just imagine that elite forward X with what I think Necas/Svech and now Foegele will become and Aho, Nino, TT and Staal, and a D that is solid defensively and has two top producers (Dougy and Fox). That could be a juggxrnaught for years. 

 

Anyway. It was not to be. Maybe Fox flames out and one of those second rounders is the next Aho. Let's go with that for now.

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11 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

At this point I am over losing Fox.  If this is what it took to end the 10 year draught then so be it.

Well this is as clear a message as any that it's time to move on! I've said my piece. I still really like our group.

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56 minutes ago, remkin said:

Well this is as clear a message as any that it's time to move on! I've said my piece. I still really like our group.

 

Beware being on the wrong side of the Fatstacks Barometer.  :)

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I liked Lindholm when he was a Cane, but since he dissed the fans and team for the Storm Surge celebrations, I have been not only over him, but looking forward to the Canes beating the Flames.  Without the trade, the Canes would not be where they are right now.  Another year of Skinner, Hanifin, and Lindholm would have yielded similar results to the past.  The Canes traded one season of each of those 3 (whose seasons have been done for a while) for a bunch of assets.  Not only that, knowing they would not resign any of the three, they unloaded some salary and created space for other acquisitions.

No one knows whether Fox will be an effective NHL player.  He has been playing against Ivy League competition.  Some of his opponents may have gained access to their teams on the basis of entitlement, haha, you never know.  What we do know is we have so much depth on D that we do not actually need him, and whether the picks acquired not only in this deal but the Skinner deal turn into draft picks or assets to acquire other players, we all have a 100% brighter outlook on the Canes moving forward than before the trades.

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I wish Connor McDavid had refused to play in Edmonton. Absolute wasteland for talented players and a wasteland for marketing the best NHL player. The NHL would have figured a way to stick handle through that scenario if he had balked - and he should have. My impression of his dead face look when they picked him said it all.   

 

Although twice it has not turned out well for the Canes with Johnson and Fox I blame management and not the player. They obviously didn't know them like they thought they did.  The collective bargaining agreement allows for this and a player takes advantage of it, its his right. Hope the kid has a decent career. Same as when a player signs an obscene contract he cannot live up to who blames the player? Get as much as you can get (Darling) because it may be your only chance. That too is on management and not the player. 

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It does seem like a bit of a loop hole for some players who play in college. The Junior player plays in Juniors post draft years one and two, until they're 20. But they still have two years presumably before they would become UFA's. But they can't stay in Junior hockey past 21. So while the NCAA player, especially one who has excelled in college hockey, can threaten to wait out his eligibility by playing his senior year, the Junior hockey player pretty much as to sign a North American Pro contract after that second or at worst third year, or they'd have to find a league to spend another year in without falling off the map. 

 

I guess it doesn't happen that often overall, but it sure has for us. There has been a worry about drafting Russian players because they have the option of returning to Russia and playing in the KHL, but if I'm the Canes, I'm seriously pausing before taking NCAA players. Even the Hanifin situation was less than ideal in that we seemed pressured to sign and play him immediately. Of course we didn't have then the D we have now, so that's good at least. 

 

Obviously I come down on the side of the team. The league is offering this unbelievable opportunity to the player to become rich and famous in a way unattainable in other leagues. The team and it's fans are the extension of the league. IMO in the next negotiation the league should close this loophole to allow the team longer control over the player's draft rights after college. At least we got a second rounder for Fox. We got squadoosh for JJ. (Did Anderson go away this way too)?

 

I don't blame Fox for exercising his rights. But I retain the right to be annoyed by it, and advocate changing things in the future.

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We never had a chance to sign him. I'm happy with what DW managed to get when he traded his rights.

 

Quote

 

OFFICIAL: have agreed to terms with defenseman Adam Fox on an entry-level contract.

"I grew up a big Rangers fan, and to have the opportunity to hopefully suit up for them is definitely special for me." - Adam Fox on signing with

 

 

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5 hours ago, OBXer said:

We never had a chance to sign him. I'm happy with what DW managed to get when he traded his rights.

 

 

3 years of Hamilton, 1 year of Ferland, a 2nd-rounder, and a 3rd-rounder (possibly 2 2nds instead of a 2nd and a 3rd) in exchange for 1 year of Lindholm and 1 year of Hanifin.  Even if a hefty chunk of Ferland's year was 1 period in and gone for the rest of the night, i'll take it.

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Talked to one of my beer league buddies who is a Rags fan...he understands the frustration on our part with the prospects holding all the cards and forcing trades to teams they want...and thought the possible two 2nd rounders was a fair price 

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Well  look on the bright side .  There is no Guarantee that fox will be great  for  the rangers ,if does manage to play 30 games  then that conditional pick becomes a 2nd round  for the canes  in 2020 ,      and lets say he does become a good player on the off chance ,    that  only means 1 thing .   The canes and Rangers will have become good trade partners  even more so   .  so if there is a forward they are trying to trade  that has tons on potential  and they want  something back   cheap  then im sure  they will think of calling  carolina  on the phone  before they go to another team .     teams that help each other out   tend to do very well   and  the last thing  you want  is to make enemies  with teams  when it comes to making trades .  

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