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In-season trades and player moves

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Adam Fox is currently scoring 2 points per game at Harvard. This is the highest points per game of any player in college hockey. Not just any D man, any player. We need to sign this guy. (He's also #6 in total points, and #1 in total points by a D man).

 

It's related to in season moves because moving a RHD should in theory, also help us sign him. And if we sign him, we can move a RHD. 

 

OH and BTW the #2 D man is Cale Makar at 1.38 ppg. And I can tell you that this kid is super-elite offensively, mind-blowing-ly talented #4 overall pick from 2 years ago's NHL draft. So Fox's 2.00 ppg supports him being pretty special.

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I think we've had a long history of both management and coaches overestimating the talent of our group. We think we are better than we are. Sure, we have guys who show flashes of talent at times or have a good year in the AHL, but that only reinforces the misperception. Very few of our players can bring it offensively night-in and night-out. 

 

The overestimation of our talent level has caused management to (1) think we can win on a shoestring budget, (2) not aggressively seek trades for elite talent, and (3) keep propounding the myth to the fans that "we're gonna be better this year."

 

I also wonder if our overestimation of talent has affected the way the team is coached. Typically, what you lack in talent you try to make up in hustle and sound fundamentals. It seems to me that we have a big deficit in hockey fundamentals like shooting and passing. I asked on the Kings GDT how much the Canes practice shooting. Not, do they shoot during practice, but do they really practice shooting? Because their shooting fundamental are extremely poor. They take too long to decide whether to shoot, they have little zip on their shots, they have poor shot selection, and—as almost everyone has observed—their shots are mostly into the goalie's chest or glove. When we complain that the Canes "can't finish," what we're really saying is that they can't shoot.

 

Are we actually coaching shooting or do we just leave it to the players to shoot x number of times in practice? I realize that these guys are all professionals. Surely they have been taught shooting fundamentals. But we're terrible at it.  

Edited by spyglass88

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17 minutes ago, spyglass88 said:

I think we've had a long history of both management and coaches overestimating the talent of our group. We think we are better than we are. Sure, we have guys who show flashes of talent at times or have a good year in the AHL, but that only reinforces the misperception. Very few of our players can bring it offensively night-in and night-out. 

 

The overestimation of our talent level has caused management to (1) think we can win on a shoestring budget, (2) not aggressively seek trades for elite talent, and (3) keep propounding the myth to the fans that "we're gonna be better this year."

 

I also wonder if our overestimation of talent has affected the way the team is coached. Typically, what you lack in talent you try to make up in hustle and sound fundamentals. It seems to me that we have a big deficit in hockey fundamentals like shooting and passing. I asked on the Kings GDT how much the Canes practice shooting. Not, I don't mean do they shoot during practice, but do they really practice shooting? Because their shooting fundamental are extremely poor. They take too long to decide whether to shoot, they have little zip on their shots, they have poor shot selection, and—as almost everyone has observed—their shots are mostly into the goalie's chest or glove. When we complain that the Canes "can't finish," what we're really saying is that they can't shoot.

 

Are we actually coaching shooting or do we just leave it to the players to shoot x number of times in practice? I realize that these guys are all professionals. Surely they have been taught shooting fundamentals. But we're terrible at it.  

Yeah  , the Canes have Shooting drills  and they work  a ton on their shot's  . for the most part what their major focus  is working on is passing and team play .   If you don't have those things patent down  then it really does not matter how  good they can shoot on net cause they wont be able to get into position to do so .    instead of taking shots  from every where   it's about  building trust and  knowing  how to read  a play and how to have a plan  ( b ,c ,d,e  ) if  plan A is not working for you .   The canes Budget is pretty much all wrapped up in coaching .   Where they really need to spend it on is scouting  .  Nearly every top end team has a huge  scouting department to get quality players instead of some run of the mill  guy  who is only looking out for themselves .   Keep this all in mind ,  This is the first year Brind'Amour has been a head coach  professionally  and  the keys to becoming a great coach is work ethic and  leadership .  I's say it's a safe bet  the Canes  have the hardest working coach in the nhl by leaps and bounds and well  Over time Rod will  develop better at team building  and  That might include some  diminishing returns   but it's for the best in the end because Rod Truly cares about this club .   If he didn't  then  he would of done nothing so far  and the canes would be the worst team in the nhl . Now can you say our GM needs to be fired ?  in my opinion H . E . Double hockey sticks  YES !!  btw  ( #FireWaddell )   but  in time Dundon  and Rod will realize that  .  As for now  it's a process   and with hard work and determination  the canes will become the best team in the nhl  , Mark my words !

Edited by Canesfanforever

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I do believe that Rod the Bod has a work ethic beyond most people, and that it will pay dividends. Later. The scouting department I have no clue of, since the last time I checked, JR was the entire outfit. Waddell, unless something miraculous happens that he is the main instigator, should not be in his position.

 

We have a plethora of young, viable D. We have an underwhelming set of forward prospects. I do understand the process that got us there. This is where it stands now. We have two options. What determines the options are basically a function of time. 

 

We can go the slow, dragging your feet the whole way, incremental change. This is what we have been doing for around a decade, to address a deplorable D corps situation. This is where our slide to mediocrity began. Then...

 

There is the hold on to your pucks, we're here to compete, right here, right now. A need is seen, and it is addressed. Always to better the team to make it more competitive. We did it, way back when, when we won Lord Stanley's Cup. That year alone saw a huge increase in the fan base. Which meant more money for the club. See where i am going? Gotta spend money to make money...

 

I really hope that someone pulls out the stops and we get to getting and we aim for the stars. We may fall short, but I will lay money on it that we will get farther than we have in a long long while.

 

Sorry for the ramble. Stay frosty, my friends

 

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Oh boy. This is ridiculous. At this pace, why did RF get let go? A lot of teams are very aggressive in fixing problems. What are the Canes doing??  NOTHING. Anaheim just picked up Sprong. We can’t score for crap, continue to do nothing about it. We have soooo many d-men and are doing nothing to improve our GPG. It’s time for a blockbuster deal!! D for O. 

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The results speak for themselves.  Lindholm couldn’t do much offensively with the canes.  Look at his production now.  Same could be said of Skinner.  Put these players with some actual offensive talent and you see the results.

 

for far to long, the Canes have had a bunch of 3rd and 4th line type players who they have tried to play on the 1st or 2nd line.  They have been over slotted on the Canes.  Should not be playing too 6 forward minutes.  They are good third and fourth line players.  That is it. 

 

This has been going on forever.  If Eric Staal actually had talented wingers, he would’ve kept producing here.  Instead he had Chad Larose on his wing.  I liked Larose.  He was a solid player, but not a 1st line winger.

 

this is the same story going on for a ridiculous amount of time now.  Time to pony up and get something done to alleviate the situation 

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39 minutes ago, BadgerCane1958 said:

Oh boy. This is ridiculous. At this pace, why did RF get let go? A lot of teams are very aggressive in fixing problems. What are the Canes doing??  NOTHING. Anaheim just picked up Sprong. We can’t score for crap, continue to do nothing about it. We have soooo many d-men and are doing nothing to improve our GPG. It’s time for a blockbuster deal!! D for O. 

I don’t think my opinion of Francis is shared by many on this board, but I think he was let go because he was not willing to be a ventriloquist’s dummy.

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The Canes should be in a position of strength. There are not many teams in the league that can afford to trade defense.  

 

Anaheim was one of them.  They traded a d-man to NJ for Henrique last season.

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Playing the off wing in the NHL is tough.  We need a top line, right handed, right winger to play with Aho and Sech.  It should be somebody with size, skill, and jam.  We should be all in on Mark Stone.  If Svech isn't playing on a scoring line soon, we also need a coach.

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11 hours ago, cclifford10 said:

Playing the off wing in the NHL is tough.  

In the D end, absolutely. On offense, however, many prefer the off-wing because it offers more shooting options.  

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12 hours ago, Bonivan said:

The thing with trading D for O is that the whole league understands that Canes have to swap D for O at some point and will ask for the moon and the stars.

Which we have to give. A particular All Star comes to mind.

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I don't see a Western team caring if they empower an Eastern team to make their club better so I think our trade partner would be out west and defense at least to me always seems like a sellers market. There's just simply less defensemen in the league to trade around, it's always a commodity. 

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20 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Which we have to give. A particular All Star comes to mind.

 

Nobody wants Faulk.  The only value has has are the over rating value by Canes fans.  Past that, he is a defensive liability with an inaccurate shot.  He could maybe fetch a 2nd round pick.  If you think he can return a 1C then prepare to be disappointed.  The only d man on the Canes that can return a true 1C is Slavin.

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38 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

In the D end, absolutely. On offense, however, many prefer the off-wing because it offers more shooting options.  

 

It's just as tough at forward.  You have to receive breakout passes on the backhand, which usually costs a little bit of speed thorough the neutral zone.  It also puts your primary passing option on the backhand which is not ideal.  The biggest issue is that you have to cutback to shoot on the forehand.  Europeans usually love it, but that's because there is more open ice.  In the NHL, it is much easier to defend a player on the off wing.  All the defenseman has to do is play the middle.  The only options left are cutting into traffic, a short side backhander, or a weak snapshot from a tough angle.  These all become low percentage shots.  Doesn't take teams long to figure out that to defend the breakout, they need to force the outlet pass to the right and take away the middle.  Look how many more chances Svech is getting since he moved to LW.  

 

We need some right shot wingers.  I wonder if we could get Stone from Ottawa if we took Ryan off their hands?  He's actually still a decent winger.  His contract is just really bad, which we can afford.  

Edited by cclifford10

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29 minutes ago, OBXer said:

We need a proven, nhl tested top line center

3 things have to happen for that:

1. We have to sell the farm to Ottawa for Duchene (and preferably Stone)

2. We'd have to be willing to spend to re-sign them because we dont need rentals

3. We'd have to be willing to spend for whats left on our roster too

 

I think it would take 70-75 million (depending on what Aho and Turbo sign for), if we moved out Rask and a 4+ million defender

Edited by gocanes0506

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20 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

 

Nobody wants Faulk.  The only value has has are the over rating value by Canes fans.  Past that, he is a defensive liability with an inaccurate shot.  He could maybe fetch a 2nd round pick.  If you think he can return a 1C then prepare to be disappointed.  The only d man on the Canes that can return a true 1C is Slavin.

bd58, in my mind, I've been one of Faulk's main critics, but this year I'm trying to remain neutral to reevaluate since he appeared to put in time this summer and train harder, reputedly coming in at lighter weight? In the years I've followed hockey, I've often observed fan bias either Pro or Con. In fact, some of the most heated discussions we see on these boards revolve around that, i.e. Chad Larose, Eric Staal and most recently Jeff Skinner. Those perceptions are admittedly hard to shake even though players to some extent might. And to some extent, I agree with your contention that Justin can be a liability, yet there are times when he plays well, if not brilliantly, and saves sure goals. Other times he is frustratingly unable to trap the puck at the point on the PPs, which together with his wild shots, causes me to wonder if he's got some eyesight problem. Your proposition however, that he could not return a 1C, I believe, is inaccurate due to the fact that it fails to anticipate dynamic situations and a trade of that sort COULD make sense to both parties. Further, it also fails to recognize that the term "1C" can mean different things to different people (teams), thus is relative. For example, to our team, a 1C could mean any center better than what we currently possess, but I guarantee you that a 1C to Toronto has a whole different meaning?

 

Thus to your statement, could Faulk be a center piece in improving our center position, it could happen depending on the situation? I for one hope that it doesn't require Slavin.

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5 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

bd58, in my mind, I've been one of Faulk's main critics, but this year I'm trying to remain neutral to reevaluate since he appeared to put in time this summer and train harder, reputedly coming in at lighter weight? In the years I've followed hockey, I've often observed fan bias either Pro or Con. In fact, some of the most heated discussions we see on these boards revolve around that, i.e. Chad Larose, Eric Staal and most recently Jeff Skinner. Those perceptions are admittedly hard to shake even though players to some extent might. And to some extent, I agree with your contention that Justin can be a liability, yet there are times when he plays well, if not brilliantly, and saves sure goals. Other times he is frustratingly unable to trap the puck at the point on the PPs, which together with his wild shots, causes me to wonder if he's got some eyesight problem. Your proposition however, that he could not return a 1C, I believe, is inaccurate due to the fact that it fails to anticipate dynamic situations and a trade of that sort COULD make sense to both parties. Further, it also fails to recognize that the term "1C" can mean different things to different people (teams), thus is relative. For example, to our team, a 1C could mean any center better than what we currently possess, but I guarantee you that a 1C to Toronto has a whole different meaning?

 

Thus to your statement, could Faulk be a center piece in improving our center position, it could happen depending on the situation? I for one hope that it doesn't require Slavin.

 

A DEFENSEMEN with a career +/- of - 105 is not going to return a savior for this team.  I am sorry but Faulk is just not good.

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Faulk is better on the defensive side than last season.  I think his partner has something to do with it.  

If he could hit the net on the regular basis with his shot, he would be a really valuable piece.  Of course, if some of the on the net shots when to the back of the net, his value would really jump.  I wouldnt say no body would want him though.  The list of would want him has to be bigger than last season though.  

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50 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

Of course, if some of the on the net shots when to the back of the net, his value would really jump

 

 

If some of his net shots went in the back of the net and he could continue to play a relatively defensively-sound game, that might solve a lot of our need without trying to trade him for a forward in the first place.

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3 minutes ago, realmdrakkar said:

If some of his net shots went in the back of the net and he could continue to play a relatively defensively-sound game, that might solve a lot of our need without trying to trade him for a forward in the first place.

 

If we could consistently have traffic in front of the net, it would improve things tremendously as well. There is more of a presence than in past years, but still. 

 

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Several years back I may have been the first critic of Faulk's defense on these boards.  In the past, when an opponent had an odd man rush, or I saw a Cane pinching to shut down an opposing winger carrying in the puck at our blue line, I found myself looking at our defender's number to see if it was "27".  If it was, I cringed in anticipation of a bad outcome.  It took a while, but I'm not doing that this season. Defensively, Faulk looks like a completely different player to me (in a good way).  The difference is so big to my eyes that I wonder what changed, and it feels like it's got to be something bigger than just increased focus or effort.  As Kjun mentions above, the only thing I can think of is maybe a shift away from bulk that increased his quickness, both skating and with his stick.  It's such a fast game I could see that making a big difference.  I've got nothing to back that up, it just happens to be the only thing I can think of other than PEDs (I say jokingly, especially since his physique seems to have gone the opposite direction that would indicate).

 

The problem with Faulk's trade value imo is that Kjun is correct when he alludes to perceptions and "the time it takes to turn around a battleship" principle. Faulk has been so bad defensively the past several years that even if his turnaround is permanent, it may take a while before other teams trust that change enough for it to show up in his trade value. Before this season I was of the mind that the Canes would be best off moving Faulk for the best offer we could get, regardless of what it was (I did think that Faulk had some value and would bring back more than just a bag of pucks).  But now I'm wondering if he may be of more value playing for the Canes than what he would bring back in a trade, at least until he's consistent enough to turn around some of the negative perceptions that I've got to believe are out there.   

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