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In-season trades and player moves

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7 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

Can you imagine if we would have traded Pesce for Nylander and his 3 points?  Wow I think we dodged a bullet there.  I think our next move should be for a Crosby, Malkin, Matthew's, or maybe a McDavid.

The only bullets dodged were by those on this board speculating based on rumors.

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RE: Ferland signing...

 

I don't know if I'm the only one that got this impression but from the moment the Canes traded for Ferland, to me his body language and the way he reacted to the trade seemed as if he was not pleased at all about coming to Carolina and most definitely did not want to be here.  Now the guy is a pro and he's not going to out right say that to the media or fans and he certainly hasn't let it affect his game but I don't think he was all that great at putting on a happy face about it either (compared to say Martinook).  I think back to that one on one interview he did with Maniscalco at The Pit and to me that was just one of the most awkward conversations I've ever seen (true of most Maniscalco interviews... ) because the guy did not seem to be enjoying any of it at all - the food, the atmosphere, the city, the conversation, whatever. Of course this could just be his default personality and I've read him wrong but my first impressions usually end up being accurate.

 

I like the guy and the game he brings and would love to keep him but I think it was a foregone conclusion from the moment we traded for him that he was not sticking around here.  I'd love to be proven wrong on this though.

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11 hours ago, Derailed75 said:

I know he isnt worth more then Turbo

And you "know" that based on what?

 

Have you considered that there's a hierarchy to NHL contracts, and that Ferland, at 26, has reached what is commonly known as his "payday" deal? This is Ferland's last best chance to get a long-term deal to take him into his early 30s, and to get it with a team that has the potential to compete for a Cup during the contract term. Put yourself in his place, and it becomes easier to see that $6M x 6 years is not an unreasonable opening ask (if that's what his is). Teuvo will be 29 when the deal he just signed ends, and will press for his payday deal the summer before, when he's 28.

 

So when you say Ferland isn't worth more than Teuvo, you're comparing apples to oranges, because their contract situations (not to mention their styles of play and how they impact total team effectiveness) are totally different.

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1 hour ago, yggsdrasil said:

I like the guy and the game he brings and would love to keep him but I think it was a foregone conclusion from the moment we traded for him that he was not sticking around here. 

I hope you're proved wrong too, because if the above is true, we gave up a whole heluva lot for Faulk squared and a college D prospect who may or may not sign, and who - like the last such prospect we signed - might well expect to be on the starting roster if he does.

 

Edit to add: That was indeed a crappy interview, but I feel it had a lot more to do with The Big Rig's apparent inability to research potential talking points with new acquisitions than it did with Ferland. A First Nation (Cree) kid from Manitoba doesn't know from BBQ and probably doesn't care. He was raised poor, and the whole community rallied around him to buy his equipment. What a great story, one Mike could have mined to give fans a chance to actually get to know the guy. (He did the BBQ thing with Darling too, a Chicago boy who literally ate it up. Shoulda been a big red flag in terms of his training table preferences.)

Edited by top-shelf-1

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10 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

Can you imagine if we would have traded Pesce for Nylander and his 3 points?  Wow I think we dodged a bullet there.  I think our next move should be for a Crosby, Malkin, Matthew's, or maybe a McDavid.

bd58, re Nylander, I just don't follow your reasoning which in the 1st place takes what he is scoring, which is on a team different from our makeup, under a coach different from RBA, in a town I'd submit is less than welcoming to his holdout and months behind fellow teammates in game time conditioning, AND magically transposes it to the Canes? The logic in that completely baffles me? I submit that Nylander will find himself, but also recall how submerged he is with several players with off the chart skills. And I'd be overjoyed if we could work out something that would pick him up off Toronto's scrape heap. Not Peace now with his present showing (Nylander), but one of our D prospects?

 

And I'm assuming that your 2nd sentence is tongue in cheek?

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49 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Dude, it's a discussion board! Whatever...

We can discuss it but trying to nail down a dollar figure from the arm chair is pointless.

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1 minute ago, Derailed75 said:

We can discuss it but trying to nail down a dollar figure from the arm chair is pointless.

Then it’s time to shut this board down...cause hypotheticals is what we do here 

Edited by AWACSooner
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1 hour ago, yggsdrasil said:

RE: Ferland signing...

 

I don't know if I'm the only one that got this impression but from the moment the Canes traded for Ferland, to me his body language and the way he reacted to the trade seemed as if he was not pleased at all about coming to Carolina and most definitely did not want to be here.  Now the guy is a pro and he's not going to out right say that to the media or fans and he certainly hasn't let it affect his game but I don't think he was all that great at putting on a happy face about it either (compared to say Martinook).  I think back to that one on one interview he did with Maniscalco at The Pit and to me that was just one of the most awkward conversations I've ever seen (true of most Maniscalco interviews... ) because the guy did not seem to be enjoying any of it at all - the food, the atmosphere, the city, the conversation, whatever. Of course this could just be his default personality and I've read him wrong but my first impressions usually end up being accurate.

 

I like the guy and the game he brings and would love to keep him but I think it was a foregone conclusion from the moment we traded for him that he was not sticking around here.  I'd love to be proven wrong on this though.

Like top before me observed,I hope you are wrong but do find Ferland somewhat hard to read, simply because he has a somewhat flat affect? Not knowing him any better than we do, This attitude may be all he ever shows so may mean nothing? Also, wan't his story one of a "tough upbringing" or am I remembering someone else? If true, that may affect his enthusiasm, unlike Jeff Skinner who always projected a bubbly attitude. 

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39 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

And you "know" that based on what?

 

Have you considered that there's a hierarchy to NHL contracts, and that Ferland, at 26, has reached what is commonly known as his "payday" deal? This is Ferland's last best chance to get a long-term deal to take him into his early 30s, and to get it with a team that has the potential to compete for a Cup during the contract term. Put yourself in his place, and it becomes easier to see that $6M x 6 years is not an unreasonable opening ask (if that's what his is). Teuvo will be 29 when the deal he just signed ends, and will press for his payday deal the summer before, when he's 28.

 

So when you say Ferland isn't worth more than Teuvo, you're comparing apples to oranges, because their contract situations (not to mention their styles of play and how they impact total team effectiveness) are totally different.

Production, the point is to score more then the other team TT gets the team there better then Ferland. Projection, TT's number are constantly rising and constantly better then Ferlands. Finally Availability, Ferlands play style lands him on the injured list, the best ability is availability.

 

I understand Ferlands point of view and dont mind him wanting to get as much as he can, but just like me buying a new car he has to be within the teams price range for what he is worth. Its sounds like from media speculation he is not in the range. 

 

I get you like his style of play, so do I and I want him to stay but if the committee feels like he wants more then he is worth to them then let him go. As mentioned above he may just not want to be here and might very well sign a deal for much less somewhere else. I wouldnt break the bank to change his mind. On top of that he is human, what if the committee caves in and pays him and then he regrets it? He might hold out a few years into his contract, may not give it everything every night over the term of his very long contract, may end up like Bergland and retire early because they wont trade him. 

 

I just dont see him being all that special and worth over paying, I get it you do

 

But thats like, just your opinion man....

Edited by Derailed75
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3 minutes ago, AWACSooner said:

Then it’s time to shut this board down...cause hypotheticals is what we do here 

I disagree, we can discuss all kinds of things with valid info as far as lines, play style, whether or not players are any good, second guess RB and complain about the committee. But trying to put a dollar figure on a players contract isnt a hypothetical or even and educated guess its flat throwing a dart in the dark.

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10 minutes ago, Derailed75 said:

Production, the point is to score more then the other team TT gets the team there better then Ferland. Projection, TT's number are constantly rising and constantly better then Ferlands. Finally Availability, Ferlands play style lands him on the injured list, the best ability is availability.

Simplification. i.e., over.

 

Did you even notice how TT and Aho fell off a cliff when Ferland was out? And correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you generally agreed with everyone here that team needs to get tougher? Injuries come with that turf. Nonetheless, we've now got an ample data set (going back the last two years) to show that, without a guy like Ferland on their line, Aho and TT don't get the production or projection you cite.

 

Hey, disagree if you want, and honestly, if Ferland goes, I have a lot faith that Nino or Maenalanen takes his slot. But my point is that, if you were in his shoes, you'd do what he has apparently done, which is to say, "I'll sign right now, no questions asked, at x dollars. I'll take my chances as an FA otherwise." And the fact that mgmt risked that this would happen and gave up the guys we did to get him - knowing he'd already gone to arbitration as a Flame - just doesn't give me much sympathy for the rock and hard place between which TD and the Committee find themselves at the moment. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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24 minutes ago, Derailed75 said:

I disagree, we can discuss all kinds of things with valid info as far as lines, play style, whether or not players are any good, second guess RB and complain about the committee. But trying to put a dollar figure on a players contract isnt a hypothetical or even and educated guess its flat throwing a dart in the dark.

Holy hell dude...that’s why we’re fans.  Discussing irrelevancies and hypotheticals based upon little to no information is what we do and do it with relish.

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26 minutes ago, Derailed75 said:

I disagree, we can discuss all kinds of things with valid info as far as lines, play style, whether or not players are any good, second guess RB and complain about the committee. But trying to put a dollar figure on a players contract isnt a hypothetical or even and educated guess its flat throwing a dart in the dark.

There's information and comp contracts out there. Combined with the org's statement that they're "far, far apart" $6 million is a really good guess, IMO. All I've asked you is what you'd pay him. Personally, I'd go $5.8 and front-load the deal so he gets $6 in each of the first four years and then is even with TT's AAV when he hits 30.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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1 hour ago, Derailed75 said:

I disagree, we can discuss all kinds of things with valid info as far as lines, play style, whether or not players are any good, second guess RB and complain about the committee. But trying to put a dollar figure on a players contract isnt a hypothetical or even and educated guess its flat throwing a dart in the dark.

 

Top is right, there are comps out there that can at least give a basic starting point for Ferlands value and a discussion.  See Tom Wilson.  I would overpay slightly due to our market but anything way north of 5.1 AAV over 6 years (that Wilson received) is overpayment.  Having said that, you are right, we don't know what he is asking, but establishing a value for Ferland is something we have enough info on to form an opinion.

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12 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

Can you imagine if we would have traded Pesce for Nylander and his 3 points?  Wow I think we dodged a bullet there.  I think our next move should be for a Crosby, Malkin, Matthew's, or maybe a McDavid.

Trade for him immediately. Now is when you do it, not when the guy is PPG.

Edited by sleekfeeder

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2 hours ago, sleekfeeder said:

Exactly. Perfect time to buy low. Now's when you trade for him.

I would wait until after July 1st.  He is owed over 13 million between now and July 1st.  After July 1st *EDIT* He'll make 24.7 million total over the last 5 seasons of the deal.  

Edited by gocanes0506

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I saw TT and Aho drop off when paired with McGinn but going back to last year and when they were paired with other they have been fine. Including a huge night the last gane

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I like Ferland and what he brings, but Aho makes everybody better.  We should look at NN / Aho / TT for a long stretch.  NN is less physical, but with more skill.  That could develop into a top end first line for several years.

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2 hours ago, gocanes0506 said:

I would wait until after July 1st.  He is owed over 13 million between now and July 1st.  After July 1st he'll make 10.7 million total for the last 5 seasons of the deal. 

 

After July 1st It's actually $24.7m over the last 5 years of his contract ($3.5m signing bonus each of the last 4 years).  Your point remains valid, though, no way a team like Carolina would trade for Nylander before July 1.

Edited by LakeLivin

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3 minutes ago, LakeLivin said:

 

After July 1st It's actually $24.7m over the last 5 years of his contract ($3.5m signing bonus each of the last 4 years).  Your point remains valid, though, no way a team like Carolina would trade for Nylander before July 1.

Including the signing bonus would be important to talk salary numbers.  Another one in the loss column for me. 

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LeBrun's article on The Athletic says Waddell is really busy trying to get a top 6 forward for a defender.  We have taken a lot of calls about one recently acquired RHD and one that is signed long term.  A lot of the calls picked up after the Nino trade. Also, a pending UFA is "all but gone".  

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11 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

LeBrun's article on The Athletic says Waddell is really busy trying to get a top 6 forward for a defender.  We have taken a lot of calls about one recently acquired RHD and one that is signed long term.  A lot of the calls picked up after the Nino trade. Also, a pending UFA is "all but gone".  

Yah yah...we’re all making our peace with Ferland going away...two D-men are probably Dougie and Pesce

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