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bluedevil58

Dougie Hamilton

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Question for the group:  Is he this bad or are we seeing yet another product of better systems where if put around guys that can actually pass/score he racks up the points.  Did so in Boston and Calgary and then hit a brick wall here.  Thoughts?

Edited by bluedevil58

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Not sure this needs its own thread but i'm happy to pile on.  He's a defenseman so i base my opinions on how good or bad he is on his defensive abilities, which aren't as affected by the scoring prowess of the forwards around him as the forwards' offensive abilities are.  Personally i think his defense sucks.  I say he's this bad, not that it's a product of systems.

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Most hockey writers I read are saying he should be on our top PP line not Faulk.  And then they carpet bomb you with the advanced statistics which back up their assertion.

 

But his 5 on 5 has not been good this year.  He is at best our #4 defenseman the way he's playing right now.

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Before we go all Faulk on Hamilton I think we should note only one team in the East has allowed fewer goals than we have. I think only 3 teams in the league have allowed fewer goals. Singling out a Dman to lay our frustration on might make us feel good but defense, including Dougie Hamilton isn't our problem .

 

 

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Just my two cents that the guy is out of shape. Seems to be a step or two away from the play on many occasions during any game. An interesting article today in the Atlantic on who drove the defense in Calgary. https://theathletic.com/719743/2018/12/19/dellow-an-analytical-look-at-early-returns-to-see-who-drove-the-mark-giordano-and-dougie-hamilton-pairing/

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I am not an overly sharp watcher of the D. So if I can see a problem...

 

The one thing I would put out there is that players do have to adjust to new teams sometimes. Sometimes an entire season can go subpar. I'd like to know what Dougie did in Boston and Calgary both to get moved, but also to still be seen as a top 20 D man. Was it all about tallying goals? 

 

 I know that we all dislike plus/minus, and I welcome someone to provide a deeper dive into advanced stats, (his possession stats are solid) at least it's readily available, and IMO, has some usefulness over time. Dougie is a +11 in his career (vs Faulk's -109) , and his worst year was -12. He is currently -11. That suggests to me that his start of this season is more of an outlier than the likely trend, but it is admittedly really a shadow stat. 

 

He is blocking more shots than he generally has. He has less goals and is getting less shots through to the net. He is about on his average for giveaways, and well ahead of his pace for take aways. He is WAY ahead of his usual on hits. He is on pace for 141 hits, while his average is 88 hits. He is on pace for a career year in blocked shots too. 

 

So really seems to be on his game in many ways except goals, and plus/minus.

 

One odd thing about the eyeball test in hockey is that bigger, less mellifluous skating guys can be deceptive. I would argue guys with more upright skating styles can also appear to be trying less also. Unlike the churning, always leaning forward Chad LaRose types, these bigger, more upright skating guys can be more effective than they look. Looking around for some opinions on Hamilton I found this from a piece in the Hockey News: 

 

DOUGIE HAMILTON, CAROLINA HURRICANES

The eyes deceive us. He may not appear to play with urgency, but the advanced stats tell us Dougie Hamilton is a dominant defenseman at both ends of the ice. 

 

(https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/the-five-players-with-the-most-to-prove-in-2018-19).

 

Personally, I think the jury is still out, and if he can start finding the back of the net a bit more, he could still be a big positive.

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Last year after 82 games:
- Giordano, 13-25-38, even
- Hamilton, 17-27-44, plus-1

This year through 32 games:
- Giordano, 6-29-35, plus-21
- Hamilton, 3-7-10, minus-11

 

Hamilton

GP: 32
G: 3
A: 7
P: 10
+/-: -11

Hanifin
GP: 34
G: 3
A: 12
P: 15 
+/-: +5

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Thanks rem for your insight, and I for one am keeping the faith, if only barely? So excited was I about this player prior to the season that I in a fatalistic move(fatalistic because it always happens), that I purchased an alternate black jersey and got his name put on it. Superstitiously unsound, but with your insight above, just makes me wonder if Dougie's problems are not due to a novice coach's miscalculations? I mean, for quite some time, many on here have questioned his PP deployment on 2nd unit. Now since our PP has struggled, one would think that some juggling of its constitution could be helpful, and most certainly couldn't hurt? Brind'Amour certainly is a celebrated treasure of the Carolina Hurricanes, but I pray he's not above admitting when he's made a mistake?

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Players who leave here, for a variety of teams, improve dramatically. See E. Staal, Skinner, Lindholm, Hanifin. Players who come here fall off dramatically (Ferland is the exception, but he got put on a line with our 2 best offensive players). See Darling, Darling, Darling, Hamilton and Darling. Even Peters apparently can coach winning hockey with a better roster. The obvious conclusion is we have had a long-term talent deficiency that has yet to be addressed. The common theme for the last 10 years: at or near the bottom in player payroll every year. Until that changes, we will see our best players fail to achieve their potential because they are playing on a team that lacks a competitive NHL roster.

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I have to say I'm probably more concerned than my post indicates. I can't help but get this weird feeling that we might be occasionally seen as a place that lazy players can come have a nice, relatively easy existence. I do not think that this applies to everyone, and I don't even know if I'm making too much of it. 

 

But to hear the Aftermath host (?Alec Campbell) just really nail Hamilton, and to hear Forslund pretty much agree, just makes me wonder. I think of the supposed bad habbits of Skinner and then watch Faulk just massively clean up his game (suggesting the possibility that the last 4 years were not necessary), and Hanifin develop in a pretty soft way. 

 

It is so hard when things seem to be turning back to their usual low end of the mushy middle for the millionth time, to even try to contemplate any deep Cleveland Brown type issues that might be under the surface of this team in terms of just getting that winning formula back. Particularly troublesome since the main upside of hiring Brind'Amour as coach, and the supposed main reason of moving Skinner on, was to address this very issue. 

 

I know Hamilton, like Faulk, has a better NHL game in him. But he just seems to be a guy who needs things flowing his way for him to bother accessing it. Will he? Don't know, but the last couple of games have been discouraging.

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58 minutes ago, ironman87 said:

His defense is OK at best, but we are starting to see his offense shine through now.  He is elite in that respect..

It's nice to get some scoring but like yesterday, he scores and then gives it right back due to atrocious positioning on D.  Man, if you're going to play like that, suit up as a wing and let us put someone worth a crap defensively behind you on defense.

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What amuses me is of the four Metro teams ahead of us only one, the Isles have given up less goals. Defense including Dougie isn't our problem. They do as a group play pretty sound defense.

 

Todays NHL isn't the same as those many of us remember. You need offensive minded Dmen in the mix.

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Im still hoping Hamilton continues to do better. I want him to outplay Hannifin to help take the sting out of that trade. (Mainly due to Lindholm lighting it up. I was not a big fan of Hannifin because it seemed like he strong armed us into playing in NHL or else.  

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2 hours ago, Canes06cup17 said:

Im still hoping Hamilton continues to do better. I want him to outplay Hannifin to help take the sting out of that trade. (Mainly due to Lindholm lighting it up. I was not a big fan of Hannifin because it seemed like he strong armed us into playing in NHL or else.  

 

 

As bad as i've felt Hamilton has played this season, he still might be outplaying Hanifin.  Hanifin is freaking awful, IMO.  I complain about giving up Skinner for Cliff Pu, but i would have given up Hanifin for Pu in a heartbeat.  Useless.

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I'm rekindling this thread. Time to review again.

Points be darned, if you look at that trade from a pure "who got what?" perspective, (with the new found chemistry between Hammy and Slavin),

We got:

A top pair offensive D man to play with our top pair defensive D man & and a physical, responsible, top 6 (could be top 3) forward.

They got:

A top 3 Forward and an offensive 3rd pairing D man, who is having a good season, and COULD one day be a top pairing guy.

 

Plus the Ace in the whole Fox. Another mark for us. 

At this juncture both sides could argue the winner, or this could be argued as left twix, right twix. Both teams got what they needed. Early on when Hammy was struggling, and with all of the trade talk with he and Ferland, it was looking like we may come out on the short end, but this has turned into a win for us, if you ask me. No one has a crystal ball, but if you look at trends and the likelihood of statistical consistency, I don't think Lindholm would have done here what he is doing there, nor Hanifin. I love our Top Pair right now, and the F S T line. 

 

Edited by sleekfeeder
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It reminds me of the Neidermeyer / Pronger combo for the Ducks back during their recent playoff/cup years. They were outstanding, and the foundation upon which they built their Championship pedigree.

For those playing the home edition, and into mashup names, Prongmeyer. Or in our case, Slavilton. 

Edited by sleekfeeder
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Dougie has stepped up big time in 2019 and gives us an elite 1st pairing defense with Slavin. Plus, he has significantly increase his physicality which is nice.  While CGY win the trade early, we are making up ground in value very quickly.

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1 hour ago, ironman87 said:

Dougie has stepped up big time in 2019 and gives us an elite 1st pairing defense with Slavin. Plus, he has significantly increase his physicality which is nice.  While CGY win the trade early, we are making up ground in value very quickly.

 

It's all on what happens with Fox who wins this trade.  I do agree that it has evened out a lot as the season progressed.

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Given the physicality that Ferland has added, and Dougie's play since recovering from whatever injury was hampering him early on; I think the trade was a win/win. Agreed, that a Fox signing tips the scale to us overwhelmingly. Hamilton is playing like the star we traded for; and has given us as mentioned, a true top pairing in this league. The Canes have never had an elite top pair, even in the cup year. Got to give DW a thumbs up on the deal!!! Now, the real question is how to convince Fox to sign, in light of the logjam that is keeping NHL calibre D in Charlotte. 

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I think the injury as Coastal mentioned, was wearing on him, now hes healthy, and playing lights out.

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