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TD has extended TT and Martinook. Traded Lindholm and Hanifin for, at this point, 3 seasons of Hamilton and one of Ferland plus a couple draft picks in the Fox deal. Let Skinner go (no way I would want the Canes to pay him $9 million/year though). The deHaan signing was held up as proof that Dundon would spend money, and he’s gone after one year. Aho not signed. Faulk not extended or traded. Neither goalie signed. I could go on. At some point there is a pattern you cannot ignore. We’ll see what happens in the next few days, but playing in a small market, the vibe we are sending out is not going to attract or keep players here. And of course there is the constant front office and management drain which I posted about on the Off-season thread. The team needs some stability, and maybe a little more success in getting players signed.

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DeHaan was a UFA and could have signed anywhere. I guess we don't know if he had a say in the trade. Not a NMC, but just asking him if he'd be ok with going to Chicago. I doubt that usually happens, but in his case, maybe?

 

My thought is that we had all of this defense mostly that we drafted, some in top 7 picks, that the notion of flipping some of it for at least one or more good forwards has been out there for a long time now. Yet, we seem to be letting proven players go for picks and prospects. I thought that was the knock on Francis. The Skinner for picks and Pu, and now DeHaan for what in my view are essentially like prospects, Fox for picks (I know he's not proven, but closer than picks). Then, while it was a great move, getting Marleau's contract for a pick...I'm not saying all bad moves, but none are the move we've been waiting for.

 

I do think Haula will be a slick, but significant move, and if J Williams comes back, and if Haula gets back to form, we may not need much more up front. But I'm still hoping for more proven NHL talent in goal and at forward, and it seemed DeHaan could have been packaged and gotten us a bit more.

 

That said, we were right on Martinook, and Marazek, so maybe these guys we got for DeHaan will be more than they seem.

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bdc, although every one of the facts you've posted cannot be denied, I think forming a conclusion from linking them together is inaccurate? Let's consider:

  1st, You lay all this at TD's feet, and while "the buck stops here" scenario is factual, all of those activities are apparently Waddell's work. Now granted Dundon has to sign off on them I guess, still he didn't mastermind them?

  2nd, as with All trades, the Lindholm/Hanafin for Hamilton/Ferland + Fox was a risk, and seems NOW as pretty one sided, and was as much predicated on anticipated unreal demands of L/H as was Skinner's trade. 

  3rd, the Skinner thing has been overly hashed out and I'll not continue to guild the lily on it, enough said.

  4th, the DeHaan thing I've commented upon and again I plead the 5th on it.

  5th, Aho and the goalies are in their own special category, apparently of their, or more likely their agents' avaristic leanings, so theres not much to advance those negotiations until those guys come back to the table, is there?

 

Thus, and although I decry what happened it appears with DeHaan, I don't see the "vibe" that your to me unrelated citations send out? Are these negotiations going as fast as I'd like, or are we making giant moves in the UFA markets that I'd love to see, no, but in all, I do appreciate that Waddell, likely under Dundon's guidance, is appearing to insist on financial responsibility, a concept that many of these other owners seem to ignore?

Edited by KJUNKANE

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1 hour ago, KJUNKANE said:

I do appreciate that Waddell, likely under Dundon's guidance, is appearing to insist on financial responsibility, a concept that many of these other owners seem to ignore

Kjun, your thoughts run similar to mine. I am dumbfounded by the inability of people to step back and think rationally and move past the emotions. Look at the difference in the treatment of Nylander and Marner. Nylander's camp was queitly resolute in their negotiations resulting in him being demonized in Toronto, while Marner is getting praise and outpourings of support while his camp strong arms the Leafs. Tom Dundon signs off on the Marleau deal, basically paying $4mil for Toronto's 1st, earning some grudging praise for weaponizing cap space and yet he is still "cheap" and apparently unwilling to pay fair market value.

I would love to lock up Aho, sign Bob, Panarin and poach Marner or Point. The reality is that it is all but impossible to fit that under the cap. If you did then you better win fast because you are going to have no room to improve soon. Signing Aho, Mrazek, or anyone else is as much about his cap hit as the dollars out of Dundon's pocket. The smart play is to leave yourself a little room for contingencies, and I would like to thank Chicago, Toronto and Vegas for allowing us to take advantage of their stupidity.

OK, I am stepping off the soapbox now.

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4 hours ago, bluedevilcane said:

TD has extended TT and Martinook. Traded Lindholm and Hanifin for, at this point, 3 seasons of Hamilton and one of Ferland plus a couple draft picks in the Fox deal. Let Skinner go (no way I would want the Canes to pay him $9 million/year though). The deHaan signing was held up as proof that Dundon would spend money, and he’s gone after one year. Aho not signed. Faulk not extended or traded. Neither goalie signed. I could go on. At some point there is a pattern you cannot ignore. We’ll see what happens in the next few days, but playing in a small market, the vibe we are sending out is not going to attract or keep players here. And of course there is the constant front office and management drain which I posted about on the Off-season thread. The team needs some stability, and maybe a little more success in getting players signed.

 

 

I'm going to bring this up every time i see mention of Lindholm/Hanifin traded for 'one season of' anything - we traded 'one season of' Lindholm/Hanifin as well.  I won't refute the rest of your post, but that trade must be called what it was, which was 2 seasons of Hurricane players (1 each of Lindy and Hanifin) for 4 seasons of Flame players.  No cherry-picking of the details can change that truth.

 

Edited by realmdrakkar
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3 hours ago, KJUNKANE said:

bdc, although every one of the facts you've posted cannot be denied, I think forming a conclusion from linking them together is inaccurate? Let's consider:

  1st, You lay all this at TD's feet, and while "the buck stops here" scenario is factual, all of those activities are apparently Waddell's work. Now granted Dundon has to sign off on them I guess, still he didn't mastermind them?

  2nd, as with All trades, the Lindholm/Hanafin for Hamilton/Ferland + Fox was a risk, and seems NOW as pretty one sided, and was as much predicated on anticipated unreal demands of L/H as was Skinner's trade. 

  3rd, the Skinner thing has been overly hashed out and I'll not continue to guild the lily on it, enough said.

  4th, the DeHaan thing I've commented upon and again I plead the 5th on it.

  5th, Aho and the goalies are in their own special category, apparently of their, or more likely their agents' avaristic leanings, so theres not much to advance those negotiations until those guys come back to the table, is there?

 

Thus, and although I decry what happened it appears with DeHaan, I don't see the "vibe" that your to me unrelated citations send out? Are these negotiations going as fast as I'd like, or are we making giant moves in the UFA markets that I'd love to see, no, but in all, I do appreciate that Waddell, likely under Dundon's guidance, is appearing to insist on financial responsibility, a concept that many of these other owners seem to ignore?

Kjun, you are right that each of the player transactions/negotiations has a life of its own. We can analyze and have opinions about transactions that have been completed, but we don’t know all the facts on deals not yet done such as Aho’s. It does concern me that almost every contract negotiation has dragged on or resulted in players leaving the organization. Also, I think Vellucci was the last assistant GM from the Francis regime when he departed, and I’m not sure who our management team is besides Waddell, Dudley, and yes, Dundon. I watched the early part of the Saturday portion of the draft, and sitting on one side of Waddell was Brind’amour, and on the other, Tom Dundon. And when the Canes were on the clock and the camera was on the Canes table, Waddell was generally only talking to Dundon. I could be wrong, but I don’t think many other owners were sitting beside their GM while the picks were made. I don’t say this to suggest Dundon doesn’t have the right to be there-it’s his money they are spending. But it does suggest to me that he is actively involved in all hockey decisions the team makes. The results in year one were fantastic. I hope that is the start of a trend. Time will tell. More than anything right now, I hope that come Monday whoever is making the calls has a solid plan in place for our goaltending next year. I think our overall goaltending stats last year were 14th in the league, and that got us into the playoffs by one point. There is no room to go backwards.

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, realmdrakkar said:

 

 

I'm going to bring this up every time i see mention of Lindholm/Hanifin traded for 'one season of' anything - we traded 'one season of' Lindholm/Hanifin as well.  I won't refute the rest of your post, but that trade must be called what it was, which was 2 seasons of Hurricane players (1 each of Lindy and Hanifin) for 4 seasons of Flame players.  No cherry-picking of the details can change that truth.

 

Technically you are right, but Lindy and Hanifin would have been RFAs for several more years, thus giving us control over whether they stayed in Carolina. Calgary chose to meet Their demands and were rewarded by Lindy in year one of his deal. Longer term, the wisdom of Lindy’s deal is yet to be determined. It could be argued that a lot of players’ stats would look good playing next to Monahan and Gaudreau. I have less of a feel for how Hanifin performed last year relative to what he was paid.

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17 minutes ago, bluedevilcane said:

And when the Canes were on the clock and the camera was on the Canes table, Waddell was generally only talking to Dundon. I could be wrong, but I don’t think many other owners were sitting beside their GM while the picks were made. I don’t say this to suggest Dundon doesn’t have the right to be there-it’s his money they are spending. But it does suggest to me that he is actively involved in all hockey decisions the team makes

Yes, now I do believe that Dundon is taking an active role in Canes operations, but just as likely as him sitting beside Waddell at the draft table, could be that he was merely trying to understand the process, not make these decisions? bdc, while I don't necessarily think you are wrong in your assertions, I do think its healthy to have our owner involved rather than to think that his (or her) interest is fleeting as it appeared that Karmanos' was. That way, if he does interject something, at least it is informed wisdom not just some whimsical thought. Now I don't pretend to have a clue how best to run a hockey operation, and I think each has it's own idiosyncrasy, but the overall picture so far appears to be an improvement over the last. I hope the trend remains positive.

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1 hour ago, realmdrakkar said:

 

 

I'm going to bring this up every time i see mention of Lindholm/Hanifin traded for 'one season of' anything - we traded 'one season of' Lindholm/Hanifin as well.  I won't refute the rest of your post, but that trade must be called what it was, which was 2 seasons of Hurricane players (1 each of Lindy and Hanifin) for 4 seasons of Flame players.  No cherry-picking of the details can change that truth.

 

I concur with this thought.  Look, although the flames raced out to an early season lead, and by and large had a successful year, it was the Canes that rose above in the end.  The Canes were the team that did a full circle turnaround in culture, and have a new spirit to build upon.  I would really like to see JW return for at least one more season to continue this growth.  We have to have faith that DW and TD have a plan and are considering everything when they make moves that may befuddle us.  I am excited about next season.

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1 hour ago, bluedevilcane said:

Technically you are right, but Lindy and Hanifin would have been RFAs for several more years, thus giving us control over whether they stayed in Carolina. Calgary chose to meet Their demands and were rewarded by Lindy in year one of his deal. Longer term, the wisdom of Lindy’s deal is yet to be determined. It could be argued that a lot of players’ stats would look good playing next to Monahan and Gaudreau. I have less of a feel for how Hanifin performed last year relative to what he was paid.

Honestly, I don't spend one moment thinking about what Hanifin or Lindholm might have done for the Canes this season.  Even though I liked Lindholm when he was on the team, I have dismissed him since the night he made his feelings known about the Storm Surge.  Whether they do well or not has nothing to do with the Canes future success.  The cocktail of players that have replaced them fit together better.  The team emphasizes what they need to do, not what they need the other team not do do.  Let's have faith that management is making decisions in this manner.  

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So far all the moves made arent horrible. But based on what we were expecting I feel underwhelmed. The Canes need to make a splash like last year or we are in trouble. Everyone admits we got the max out of our group. How often does that happen year in and year out? We need to upgrade. Not move laterally. 

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The draft just concluded, free agency hasn’t even started, and people are disappointed/complaining/being negative.

 

😔

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22 minutes ago, iceman11 said:

I don’t think it is a positive thing that Bales and Vellucci both left the organization....

I agree but saying that, do we really know the circumstances surrounding either's decision? In Mike Vellucci's case, it likely is going to turn out to be an opportunity in the NHL, more than likely as HC? IF not as HC, than as an assistant, and while many on here including me have in one way or another been critical of our Asst HCs, particularly whoever is responsible for the power(less) play, Brind'Amour has always voiced his support. Therefore, Vellucci has no place on the Canes at this time. Thus, he was tremendous in his role as the coach of the Checkers, but likely has higher aspirations and no amount of money, if that's is your thought, is going to satisfy his decision to leave.

 

Bales is different as his move appears lateral, thus there are other factors at play? Salary? More desirable location for him or his family? Homesick, although I don't know from where he or his spouse hail? More challenge? Friendship with owner, coaching staff or whatever? Any or a few could be in play, and though I regret his leaving,there's nothing this team could do to force him to stay. Both goalies we had this year seemed to do well under him, but their presence is also in a state of flux, thus he possibly needs more stability? Hopefully his replacement will be just as competent, as Brindy seemed to lean on his advice completely?

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9 hours ago, Kyrule said:

The draft just concluded, free agency hasn’t even started, and people are disappointed/complaining/being negative.

 

Nothing worth reading here unless you like cliff diving. 

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28 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

I agree but saying that, do we really know the circumstances surrounding either's decision? In Mike Vellucci's case, it likely is going to turn out to be an opportunity in the NHL, more than likely as HC? IF not as HC, than as an assistant, and while many on here including me have in one way or another been critical of our Asst HCs, particularly whoever is responsible for the power(less) play, Brind'Amour has always voiced his support. Therefore, Vellucci has no place on the Canes at this time. Thus, he was tremendous in his role as the coach of the Checkers, but likely has higher aspirations and no amount of money, if that's is your thought, is going to satisfy his decision to leave.

 

 

Nope.  Lateral move to HC another AHL team.  One in the sphere of JR. 

 

This makes me a bit concerned.

 

http://www.wbspenguins.com/2019/06/28/mike-vellucci-named-penguins-head-coach/?fbclid=IwAR1hGq4UVKOzBXg-dWnW2UeCujotnAoTYHOEr7MXx9ss7sy7d4PXHdJyRTM

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9 hours ago, Kyrule said:

The draft just concluded, free agency hasn’t even started, and people are disappointed/complaining/being negative.

 

😔

I can only speak for myself but I would say "underwhelmed" is the word to describe everything so far. None of the moves are BAD. But we had every opportunity to do something big (cap space, excess D, picks, prospects, momentum/incentive to do something to improve the team NOW) and havent SO FAR. Its great that we got a lot of picks and an extra first but I would have preferred less picks for help NOW.

 

The likelihood that we will all of a sudden spend money in FA based on what we have done so far I think is small. But I am cautiously waiting to see what happens come July 1st in hopes of some additions. Perhaps then it will all make sense!

 

DW seems to leak a lot to the press when it may be in his best interest and tight lipped when its not (didnt see the Flames trade last year or Chicago/Vegas trades leaked this year) but it would make me feel better I guess if I read some of what he might be going after. Hearing nothing all of a sudden after so many other rumors out there makes it seem like theres nothing coming (although Im sure something is). 

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I honestly can't say I understand all the moves we have made but we did add some depth experience, picked up a 1st round draft pick, open up competition on our blue line, added a player that is risky but potentially a high reward if he returns to form and signed NED who gives us options in goalie moves.

 

When we sign Aho I think we will all feel better about what is going on.

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12 minutes ago, wxray1 said:

 

Nope.  Lateral move to HC another AHL team.  One in the sphere of JR. 

 

This makes me a bit concerned.

 

http://www.wbspenguins.com/2019/06/28/mike-vellucci-named-penguins-head-coach/?fbclid=IwAR1hGq4UVKOzBXg-dWnW2UeCujotnAoTYHOEr7MXx9ss7sy7d4PXHdJyRTM

Maybe he decided that Pitt has higher chances of firing their NHL HC than Canes firing Rod

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11 hours ago, bluedevilcane said:

Technically you are right, but Lindy and Hanifin would have been RFAs for several more years, thus giving us control over whether they stayed in Carolina. Calgary chose to meet Their demands and were rewarded by Lindy in year one of his deal. Longer term, the wisdom of Lindy’s deal is yet to be determined. It could be argued that a lot of players’ stats would look good playing next to Monahan and Gaudreau. I have less of a feel for how Hanifin performed last year relative to what he was paid.

I liked this move, liked what we got back, and would do it all over again.  This team needed a culture change and a shake up.  Hard to argue with the results.

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2 minutes ago, Bonivan said:

Maybe he decided that Pitt has higher chances of firing their NHL HC than Canes firing Rod

Or perhaps an assistant position was whispered to him.  So, yeah.  There's an obvious clog in the Cane's system with the success this year.

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7 minutes ago, wxray1 said:

This makes me a bit concerned.

Because...?? 

 

I loved Vellucci's dedication to the org, and that when he left, he went out on top. Clearly he liked his old boss better, and though I didn't read the piece you linked, I'll bet JR overpaid him--because that's JR's MO, as sure as the Next Big Move in Pittsburgh will be: blaming the coach. If the Pens don't charge out of the gate next season, Sullivan will be gone and Vellucci will be the "Calder Cup winning coach who has paid his dues" who replaces him. JR is all about appearances: the sizzle, not the steak.

 

I love that our new owner likes his medium rare. It means the org doesn't get burned. If the message that sends throughout the NHL is that Carolina makes you work for what you get and doesn't wrap your steak in bacon once it has a little success, I'm down (I could stretch the analogy even further--I just don't want to).

 

Because that message will speak to and attract hungry people (oh yes I did!!) with strong work ethics.

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22 minutes ago, cane-addict-1 said:

I can only speak for myself but I would say "underwhelmed" is the word to describe everything so far. None of the moves are BAD. But we had every opportunity to do something big (cap space, excess D, picks, prospects, momentum/incentive to do something to improve the team NOW) and havent SO FAR. Its great that we got a lot of picks and an extra first but I would have preferred less picks for help NOW.

 

The likelihood that we will all of a sudden spend money in FA based on what we have done so far I think is small. But I am cautiously waiting to see what happens come July 1st in hopes of some additions. Perhaps then it will all make sense!

 

DW seems to leak a lot to the press when it may be in his best interest and tight lipped when its not (didnt see the Flames trade last year or Chicago/Vegas trades leaked this year) but it would make me feel better I guess if I read some of what he might be going after. Hearing nothing all of a sudden after so many other rumors out there makes it seem like theres nothing coming (although Im sure something is). 

Splashy big moves don't guarantee success.  I like the course so far..  Prudent, cap-conscious, and solid returns.  This team made it to the conference finals last year.  They do not need a complete make-over.  They have a good stable of young players working their way up the ladder in Charlotte, and by all accounts had a very solid draft.  Primary need right now is in goal (I think they will sign PM), they added a solid 2C or 3C through a trade (great face-off guy which was a weakness last year....addressed a need), and if they could find one more 20 goal winger I would be happy.  Throwing huge money at RFA's in a league with a tough cap is actually the bigger gamble than the course they seem to be taking.

Edited by reelpirate5
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14 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Because...?? 

 

I loved Vellucci's dedication to the org, and that when he left, he went out on top. Clearly he liked his old boss better, and though I didn't read the piece you linked, I'll bet JR overpaid him...

Look, I don't comment as much as you guys on pay for players, coaches, etc. because I don't know enough.  But I'll try.  My concern is still whether TD is willing to at least pay market.  And maybe he is doing everyone a favor by not overpaying and actually adjusting the market from overheating.  I just don't know what overpaying is.

 

I do know that when I have a contract that's up, I check around and get the best deal.  If that's what V did, good for him.  But my concern is still whether TD is demanding bottom 10% pay for every coach.  Again, I don't know... But that seems to be the whisper.  But perhaps that whisper is still being promulagated by hosers up at the cabin drunk on their Labatts and Crown Royal.

Edited by wxray1
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