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Canes will match offer Sheet on Aho 5yrs 8.45mil AAV

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16 hours ago, Kyrule said:

 

Because that is how negotiations work. What DW’s statement tells me is that we were willing to go a lot higher than our most recent offer. Aho decided to terminate negotiations and force things on his terms.

 

Btw, do you really think the first few offers to other high-profile players aren’t way below value? 

 

Why people assume the Canes were playing “hardball” while everyone else is just negotiating is beyond me. Aho went straight past “hardball” and right to blackmail. 

 

 

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Negotiating requires give and take on both sides.  I don't think there was any give on the Canes stance of requiring an 8 year deal.

 

It makes tremendous sense for a player of Aho's age and ability to want a 5 year deal over an 8 year deal.  He will hit UFA right in the middle of his prime playing years, not sliding down the backside of them.  He will be able to sign a longer max length deal then and the cap will have increased.  He can go elsewhere then if he doesn't like the direction the Canes are going or if he's just wants a change.  Hate on his decision all you want, but he did what made good business sense for him.  The Canes were going after what made good business sense to them.  Since offer sheets are rarely a factor, they weren't expecting it.  Teams are going to have to start realizing that every player doesn't want a max term deal.  

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22 minutes ago, super_dave_1 said:

It makes tremendous sense for a player of Aho's age and ability to want a 5 year deal over an 8 year deal.

Beating a dead horse, I know, but it also makes tremendous sense from the Canes' perspective. What if Svech turns out to be Aho x3?   

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12 minutes ago, super_dave_1 said:

Negotiating requires give and take on both sides.  I don't think there was any give on the Canes stance of requiring an 8 year deal.

 

It makes tremendous sense for a player of Aho's age and ability to want a 5 year deal over an 8 year deal.  He will hit UFA right in the middle of his prime playing years, not sliding down the backside of them.  He will be able to sign a longer max length deal then and the cap will have increased.  He can go elsewhere then if he doesn't like the direction the Canes are going or if he's just wants a change.  Hate on his decision all you want, but he did what made good business sense for him.  The Canes were going after what made good business sense to them.  Since offer sheets are rarely a factor, they weren't expecting it.  Teams are going to have to start realizing that every player doesn't want a max term deal.  

It's termed "instant gratification" and is the way of the world these days. Like Kyrule has expressed over and over, I don't like and am uncomfortable with it, but there's no changing it these days, and top has also made a good point that we can look at it as the new wave "bridge deal". After days of reading the pros and cons, my final thought is that it's too bad that undoubtedly there's been bridges burned? Some fans undoubtedly feel betrayed, a certain agent is probably persona non-grata and I'd bet our owner, TD, despite what several have opined that he likely respects Aho more, is not too pleased. Also, isn't it a fact that when these OS situations arise, and I realize that the denominator is low, but haven't I read that sometime during the period of the condition, that the player is traded? I would hate to see that be the result of this situation.

 

Additionally, I have a sneaky feeling that we, the Canes, have yet to see the end game in this? Certainly Bergevin and his advisors were not so ignorant as to really believe that this so roundly criticized ploy (criticized as being too soft) would be successful. Maybe I'm over reacting, but I am left wondering if there's not another salvo coming? Of course it may not be aimed at us, but I just wonder?

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45 minutes ago, super_dave_1 said:

Negotiating requires give and take on both sides.  I don't think there was any give on the Canes stance of requiring an 8 year deal.

I don't disagree with this, but would add that there didn't seem to be any give from Aho's camp. Did Aho's camp offer a discount on $ to stay firm on term? Were they as insistent on price and term and refused to budge? The only things we are likely to ever know about these negotiations are that Aho refused to have them during the season and his agent refused to give a counter offer in Vancouver. Everything else is speculation and will mean nothing once the season starts. The best way for us fans to judge this is by observing how his teammates react to him once the season starts as they are likely to know most of the details.

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24 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

Certainly Bergevin and his advisors were not so ignorant

I think you underestimate them...

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Agree or disagree on how the situation was handled, perhaps the real issue is the current structure of the offer sheet. Either remove it from the CBA or put parameters on what can be front loaded on bonuses. No team should be able to possibly eliminate the previous contract owner from signing their player due to unreasonably front loading a contract with bonuses. 

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17 minutes ago, super_dave_1 said:

It just seems like some here think that the player should just sign whatever the team puts in front of them

 

I haven’t seen anyone suggest anything even close to that. I think we all understand that lengthy negotiations are the norm.

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39 minutes ago, Kyrule said:

 

I haven’t seen anyone suggest anything even close to that. I think we all understand that lengthy negotiations are the norm.

It’s exactly what some are suggesting. Aho wanted instant gratification Aho wouldn’t negotiate during the season. We won’t look at Aho the same way.  Aho didn’t offer a discount to get the term he wanted. 

 

The team wants to get the player tied up as cheap as they can and for as long as they can. RFA’s don’t have a lot of stroke, but I don’t blame them for playing the game by the rules the league has in place. 

Edited by super_dave_1
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1 hour ago, Kyrule said:

 

I haven’t seen anyone suggest anything even close to that. I think we all understand that lengthy negotiations are the norm.

I agree with everything you've said since the start of the offer sheet mess. DW and TD are directing their ire towards MTL and Aho's agent, but I have some reserved for Aho himself. Aho knew his agent wasn't negotiating in good faith with a team he claims to love and wants to be the face of. To say otherwise is to imply Aho is an oblivious dimwit. Maybe Gerry Johansson is a real life Bebe Glazer, but that doesn't absolve Aho from going along with his scheme.

 

If Martinook's tweet is any indication, Aho is going to face some good-natured ribbing in the locker room and a lot of extra pressure to perform. I'm curious to hear how Brind'Amour feels about the situation. If he was disheartened by McElhinney leaving I'd imagine he isn't too happy with Aho, especially since he's been expressing concerns about Aho's ability to be the face of the franchise in interviews the past couple months. Hopefully by the time the season starts it'll be water under the bridge. Aho will affirm that he loves playing for the Canes and his play will live up to his contract.

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1 hour ago, super_dave_1 said:

It’s exactly what some are suggesting. Aho wanted instant gratification Aho wouldn’t negotiate during the season. We won’t look at Aho the same way.  Aho didn’t offer a discount to get the term he wanted. 

 

What does any of this have to do with your statement that people feel he should “sign whatever the team puts in front of him.”

 

The instant gratification part is because the offer sheet allowed him to get 21 million in 12 months rather than continue negotiations. Montreal or Carolina was going to pay him.

 

“Aho wouldn’t negotiate during the season.” Again, not sure how this ties into signing whatever we give him. This is simply a time allowance aspect.

 

As for the “Aho didn’t offer a discount to get the term he wanted”, please show me where anyone suggested that.

 

I (and from what I’ve seen, everyone) have no problem with the terms of the contract. Our latest offer still wasn’t good enough, didn’t see anyone suggest otherwise. The team knew this, hence the comment about DW being informed that no counter offer was coming.

 

I also don’t blame Aho for wanting 5 years and sticking to his guns, most of the new RFA contracts are likely to play out that way as the players know they will be in for another big pay day as long as they stay healthy and produce. The risk is worth the potentially significant reward. 

 

“We won’t look at Aho the same way.” That’s because of the way he went about things, which again has nothing to do with signing whatever we put in front of him.

 

 

.

Edited by Kyrule
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1 hour ago, Kyrule said:

 

What does any of this have to do with your statement that people feel he should “sign whatever the team puts in front of him.”

 

The instant gratification part is because the offer sheet allowed him to get 21 million in 12 months rather than continue negotiations. Montreal or Carolina was going to pay him.

 

“Aho wouldn’t negotiate during the season.” Again, not sure how this ties into signing whatever we give him. This is simply a time allowance aspect.

 

As for the “Aho didn’t offer a discount to get the term he wanted”, please show me where anyone suggested that.

 

I (and from what I’ve seen, everyone) have no problem with the terms of the contract. Our latest offer still wasn’t good enough, didn’t see anyone suggest otherwise. The team knew this, hence the comment about DW being informed that no counter offer was coming.

 

I also don’t blame Aho for wanting 5 years and sticking to his guns, most of the new RFA contracts are likely to play out that way as the players know they will be in for another big pay day as long as they stay healthy and produce. The risk is worth the potentially significant reward. 

 

“We won’t look at Aho the same way.” That’s because of the way he went about things, which again has nothing to do with signing whatever we put in front of him.

 

 

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Everything I put is in this thread, and I’m not going to rummage back through it again to have an internet argument. Life’s too short

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6 hours ago, slapshot02 said:

Agree or disagree on how the situation was handled, perhaps the real issue is the current structure of the offer sheet. Either remove it from the CBA or put parameters on what can be front loaded on bonuses. No team should be able to possibly eliminate the previous contract owner from signing their player due to unreasonably front loading a contract with bonuses. 

 

Eh.. almost all owners are at least multiple 100's of millionaires, many billionaires now.

 

Times have changed, as Dundon proved- to a billionaire a front loaded deal meaningless in the scope of contract.

 

Back when teams total value $50 million, a front loaded deal potentially a problem, but IMO not these days where team values  are $300 million-1.55 billion are rising 20% a year

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193732/franchise-value-of-national-hockey-league-teams-in-2010/

 

Owners don't like to talk about how their franchises have escalated in value- player salaries still way behind the growth return for franchise value the last 10-15 years

 

Avg owner value has gone from 148 mill to 630 million since 2000... avg salaries no where near that growth

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193443/average-franchise-value-nhl/

Edited by canes2017
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For me, this was simply two parties trying to get the best deal possible for themselves.  Aho's agent thought they came to an impasse and forced the Canes hand by exercising a  perfectly legal maneuver under the CBA.  The Canes will exercise their rights under the CBA and match it.  As much as we are fans, this is a business.  I for one am glad this is almost over (Canes still have to officially match, but they will for sure) so it will not drag into next season.  We have our best players locked up for quite awhile now (Pesce, Slavin, Aho, Turbo) and some yutes coming up for the 19-20 season, plus the most stacked farm system in hockey.  The Canes aren't going anywhere for quite some time.  

 

I am  happy with the off-season so far.  At least we didn't shell out  8M a year for 7 years for an inferior player on the downside of his career in Matt Duchesne.  The Preds are going to be kicking themselves 5 years from now.    

 

PS we signed Brain Gibbons to a two-way deal yesterday.  I have no idea who that is, but we did...

 

Edited by ironman87
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19 hours ago, Kaze said:

DW and TD are directing their ire towards MTL and Aho's agent, but I have some reserved for Aho himself. Aho knew his agent wasn't negotiating in good faith with a team he claims to love and wants to be the face of.

You're rewriting facts. Inaccurately.

 

DW and TD have never expressed ire toward Montreal. Indeed, DW said he was happy because he'll now have a good summer.

 

Aho and his agent not negotiating in good faith? What proof do you have of that? Unless you call digging in for what you want not negotiating in good faith? If so, be careful, because if that's your standard, the Canes also met it.

 

All that happened here is that both sides refused to budge: The Canes wanted eight years of Aho, and Aho wanted five, so he'd have another bite at the apple--which is completely within his rights. So when it became clear to Aho's side that the Canes weren't going to budge, they took the action they needed to take to prove they were serious.

 

Unless you still think players are property--which they are not--your assessment is straight-up wrong.

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I have to think TD was a bit miffed that Montreal took this swing at us. I know I was. But, the committee met, probably vented their feelings about Montreal pulling this, then thought it through and put on the perfect public face for it. 

 

Really the committee IMO has handled so many thing well. If I wasn't about to run out the door I'd list them and it would be a lot including just about every draft pick. The one that I'm still thinking may not have been as great as the others was the DeHaan trade. I think we panicked a bit that we might, amazingly be put in a cap squeeze if we had to match a big Aho offer, AND that we might end up without a goalie after UFA took the best ones.

 

But we moved out a chunk of our capital on D for two guys who at least so far, look like AHL-NHL tweeners. My hope is that our pro scouts see something good in these guys and they turn out to be better than advertised. It happened with Martinook, so I'm not ready to declare this one bad.

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33 minutes ago, remkin said:

I have to think TD was a bit miffed that Montreal took this swing at us.

Not if he's a smart businessman, and there's plenty of sample size showing he is. There is equally ample proof that Montreal hasn't had anyone with a business head for a long, long time.

 

I've posted this once, but it bears repeating: The Canes realized they couldn't go wrong by offering Aho max term, so they did, and maintained all along that they'd be fine if the negotiations had to go all summer. In terms of both the public and organizational messages, that is exactly the right thing to say; nobody can accuse them of being cheap or unwilling to commit; the worst folks could say was they wanted to get the best deal possible.

 

But when Montreal bit, I'd wager it was not anger flowing, but champagne: The strategy worked. Instead of being hog tied to a kid who may or may not withstand the rigors of NHL hockey long-term, the org now has an escape hatch. And the same opportunity as every other team in the league, assuming SeaBass survives and thrives, to commit to him again when this deal is done. PLUS, we get the benefit of a lower cap hit on him at the exact time we'll be needing to sign more promising players who are coming off their ELCs.

 

TD has every reason to be elated and not one thing to be upset about. By playing his cards exactly right, he got the org exactly what it needed.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1
typo
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I’m just guessing as to how he felt, but so is everyone. I’m guessing the first response would be like most of ours. Just the idea that  they thought this could work would be irritating. They thought they could bully us, 

 

This is based on what it felt like, but also in some of what TD said about Montreal thunking this would work surprising him. 

 

 But who knows? 

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TD has plenty of ammo to take a swing at someone else, and I'd be very surprised if he didn't, at some point. I think Montreal may have opened Pandora's Box, and I will not be surprised to see more offer sheets in the future.

Edited by caniac6

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16 minutes ago, wxray1 said:

TD did appear miffed at the words that came from the agent.

I'm finding no such comment from TD, only that DW said Montreal "got played" by Aho's agent, which is absolutely true. But that doesn't mean the Canes are unhappy about it.

 

Until someone can provide even one plausible business/cap-related reason that the Canes should be unhappy with this result, I'll continue to believe that the Canes are elated. The whole Aho loyalty argument is BS, because owners haven't been loyal to players--well, ever. 

 

Further, I think it's very likely the Canes stuck to their eight-years-or-bust guns specifically in hopes that some other team would do all the work of negotiating a shorter deal, and they'd reap the benefits, which are many, and which I've previously detailed. But there's one I've left out: They made Aho put his money where his mouth is, in terms wanting only a five-year deal. The door is now absolutely closed to him ever claiming he wanted a longer-term deal.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1
typo
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3 minutes ago, remkin said:

but also in some of what TD said about Montreal thunking this would work surprising him

Who knows is right, but if you take that comment at face value, all it really says is, "Those guys are clueless." Which is not exactly the league's best-kept secret.

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18 minutes ago, wxray1 said:

TD did appear miffed at the words that came from the agent.

Here's a news flash to all.  No owners like agents.

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This isn't part of the thread; so I apologize in advance; but TSN is reporting that there is one team ready to give an offer sheet to Marner in the 11+M range. Certainly puts the MTL-Aho-TD situation on the back page. Rumored that it could be NYI!! Wow!!!!! Can't wait to see how the CDN press handles that one.

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