Jump to content
The Official Site of the Carolina Hurricanes
Sign in to follow this  
gocanes0506

Canes will match offer Sheet on Aho 5yrs 8.45mil AAV

Recommended Posts

This is off thread but noticed most have been so...

 

Remember now, Vegas is over budget and needs to move a player or two. With our cap space, we could over something for JONATHAN MARCHESSAULT, or WILLIAM KARLSSON. While they would probably pass on Karrlson, Marchessault would get them under budget. Both have been great scorers the last 2-3 years. I am actually a McGinn fan but both of these players are scorers and we need that.

 

Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, KJUNKANE said:

Okay, wxray did you blow it off?

Yes I did.  Initially, as a young man.  This is very personal and close to me, so pardon my talk here.  I expect a remkin-esque post coming...

 

Short version: any team looking at a player who has admitted to persistent back pain better go into this eyes wide open.  Back issues will take players down.  The list of players in every sport is long.  Many of the mighty have fallen from issues of the spine, our most important supporting structure in our body.  Elite athletes will deny the issue because the stakes are high.  This is natural.  You assume it can be fixed with training, so you deny.  Even nobodies like me will deny it because, well, denial is easier than surgery or some other treatments.

 

Long version: "back issues" can compromise a huge set of issues that range from trivial to life threatening.  Trivial is the "tweak" most of us have felt after lifting that is simply a muscle strain.  Although it feels like you might die, the reality is after 4 or 6 weeks, you'll be fine after the strain subsides.  Life threatening is an issue like multiple mylenoma, which is actually a blood cancer, but typically presents in spinal pain and fractures.

 

Almost all of the back pain is of the muscle strain variety.  People go to the doctor expecting the worse, only to be given a sheet of instructions for exercise and posture.  Guess what, that usually works!   Even if it persists, the insurance folks will force the patient to go further, with physical therapy or other treatments, before considering an MRI or surgery.  Time and strengthening of the muscles helps.  After a few months, it usually is no big deal.  Some people are more susceptible than others to muscle issues.  For most elite athletes, they get the treatment they need from the trainers, including targeted exercises that improve muscle tone with balance.  A good example of this is the Cane's own Cam Ward.  For a period there (a few months), he admitted to struggling with back issues.  It hit him out of the blue.  But through training and treatment, he pulled out of it.  Of course, these players also have the benefit of early MRIs to verify the issue (something mere mortals won't get due to cost).

 

Elite athletes also get the guidance and training to balance their core muscles, hold posture, etc.  We all wish we could get this kind of training.  Trainers want to keep their athletes out of the typical "back problem" patient who works in the office.  Office work is the worst for the back.  We should all have trainers in the office.  No joke!

 

There's another set of patients who have minor structural issues in their back.  That's me.  Exercise and therapy is a HUGE help to control any symptoms.  However, the patient is now at risk for further damage.  We heard this time and time again about Erik Cole.  Payton Manning is another example.  They played, but with some managed risk.  That risk could lead to a sudden end or implosion of the career.  Probably not anything worse, although in Erik's case, the neck was involved so that's always a huge worry.  To the elite athlete, this can be a problem for their long term success.

 

I did the exercises and stuff but blew off the extra risk.  In my defense, I didn't have an MRI because they were too expensive and not indicated for back patients unless you were off the charts bad, like suffering incontinence.  This was especially true 25 years ago.  In retrospect, I would have done things differently if I had know about the structural issues (mostly disc related).  I would have never, ever, jogged.  I would have limited my lifting, etc. 

 

I basically slowly ground down as my discs had many "mini-ruptures" over the years.  When I finally couldn't sit, or stand straight, they let me have an MRI and it was a bit of a horrorshow.  Much of this could have been limited if I changed my behavior.  I was lucky in that a minor "clean up" surgery worked for me (laminectomy, discectomy).  Tiger tried the same but it didn't work for him since he still wanted to play with explosive twisting.   He had to resort to ALIF (a topic for another post) that is an excellent, but much more complicated surgery to fix structural disc problems.

 

So that brings me back to Laine.  What does he have?  We don't know.  It is private.  Perhaps it is all muscular, and he just keeps retweaking.  But why?  His trainers should be on this like flies and dog piles.  I get very concerned when it persists like this in a young man, like it did with me.

 

So has he blown a disc?  If so, that lasts with you forever.  Take "elite" and knock of maybe 2% of effectiveness after you've been cured.  Instead of the "top of the elite", you just moved to the "bottom of the elite."  Keep having issues and you move to "best players in the league."  Next step is "average."  Ultimately, if he has degenerative disease like Ryan Callahan and myself have, you really, really have to limit what you do in life.  Period.

 

But we don't know and I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth.  I HOPE it is nothing but tweaked muscles.  Beyond that, we do know what it did to Tiger.  We do know what it did to Ryan Callahan.  Any team looking into him better find out the full story.

 

I'll end with a few quotes from Callahan that support my view of how a chronic back injury sneaks up on you, like it did to me, and probably Tiger.

 

https://www.nhl.com/lightning/news/ryan-callahan-opens-up-about-back-injury/c-307941612

 

Quote

Has your back been bothering you for a while or is this something that's popped up since the season ended?
Callahan: "I kind of knew. I've been dealing with some back issues for a couple years now, this year being the worst that it's ever been, obviously missing some games with it, leaving some games with it. I've kind of been battling it all year. Didn't know to what extent and after the season I went and saw a couple specialists and after talking to them, it wasn't easy to hear what they thought was going on and most likely won't be able to play. It was definitely tough to hear that."

...

How long have you back been hindering your ability to play?
Callahan: "It's been a couple years in the making, and I think this year it just got to a point where it was almost unbearable at times. We tried a couple different things during the year to help it, and it helped it a little bit to where I could get into the game and play. But even throughout the year, it was always in the back of my head every game I played that this thing could go on me and spasm on me and flare up and I could be out, which happened to me in a couple of games. And then there are some games I didn't play because of it. It ended up being a day-to-day thing to be honest with you. It depended on how I woke up in the morning and how I felt. I'm sure talking to the doctors too they agreed the contact and the physical game, the banging, the unpredictable movements of hockey aren't conducive for it. It's tough. It definitely is."

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you wxray, very comprehensive coverage of a complicated topic. It was why I felt that, despite what appears to be fans of Winnipeg grousing about Laine's back problem, possibly even labeling him as a malingerer, this man deserves their complete support rather than snide criticism. It's also why I believe a team such as the Canes could possibly get a steal, presuming his is amenable to therapy and not the much more destructive issue.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, KJUNKANE said:

Thank you wxray, very comprehensive coverage of a complicated topic. It was why I felt that, despite what appears to be fans of Winnipeg grousing about Laine's back problem, possibly even labeling him as a malingerer, this man deserves their complete support rather than snide criticism. It's also why I believe a team such as the Canes could possibly get a steal, presuming his is amenable to therapy and not the much more destructive issue.

Just looking at him, I doubt he is malingering.   Back problems can just be a *edit*, that's all.

 

Oh, and same for shoulders.  We got Eaves during his issues.  He got better after the team flipped him.  Took years.  If I recall, JW joined us with a shoulder issue?  Am I remembering that?   I don't even want to talk about Rask.  Probably should be another HWSNBN...

 

Shoulders and backs: not compatible with hockey.  Proceed with extreme caution.

Edited by wxray1
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/7/2019 at 10:37 PM, Kaze said:

Whether athletes are overpaid or underpaid is a whole other discussion. I don't blame anybody for wanting a piece of the pie, but you have to think about what that means in terms of the cap percentage and how it can affect the depth of the team when too much of your money is tied up in one guy. I think $8.5mil AAV over 5 years is a reasonable number that could have been arrived at in normal negotiations. There's a lot of panic in Aho's statement that I don't feel was warranted considering negotiations hadn't been going on that long. It gave me the impression Aho's agent was whispering in his ear making him believe it would turn into another Nylander situation if he didn't sign the OS. That tactic didn't work on Point, so he moved on to Aho. I don't know why his agent was so gung-ho about getting a client to sign an OS, but he got his wish.

 

We're coming from different sides of the spectrum. You're looking at it purely from a business angle and I'm looking at it from an emotional angle. Aho's been touted as a guy that never wanted to leave Raleigh and wants to be the face of the team. Signing the offer sheet made both sides look bad because it made Aho look greedy and disloyal and the Canes look cheap and stubborn. Publicly TD, DW and Aho are saying they're satisfied with how everything ultimately worked out, so I hope it's true there's no bad blood behind the scenes. I also hope future RFA's don't use this as a template for how to conduct business because it might not work out as well a second time.

It made neither side look bad to me. Neither would budge and both exercised rights that their parent orgs (Owners and NHLPA) mutually agreed to.

 

Question Aho's loyalty if you want, but greed is a stretch. I choose to believe that when the puck drops, these guys are professionals who want to make as much as they can at work--just like you and me.

 

If anything Aho has only put further pressure on himself to perform, and not just for his next deal, but to quiet all those looking for something to wring their hands over in the off-season. Like you.

Edited by top-shelf-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wxray1 said:

Just looking at him, I doubt he is malingering.   Back problems can just be a *edit*, that's all.

 

Oh, and same for shoulders.  We got Eaves during his issues.  He got better after the team flipped him.  Took years.  If I recall, JW joined us with a shoulder issue?  Am I remembering that?   I don't even want to talk about Rask.  Probably should be another HWSNBN...

 

Shoulders and backs: not compatible with hockey.  Proceed with extreme caution.

JW tore both an ACL and MCL on the same play in Philly. He tore both again, in the same leg (left), with us the second year after the Cup win (2007-08). Both times he returned weeks ahead of the typical rehab window. In early April of 2008 he left with a back injury, but was fine after the off-season--until tearing his achilles tendon in an off-ice, pre-season workout prior to the start of the 08-09 season. He came back from that one sooner than the normal rehab window too--only to have his hand broken by a slapper off his own teammate's stick. More recently there was his cheekbone goal. And you STILL can't keep him out of the slot.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

JW tore both an ACL and MCL on the same play in Philly. He tore both again, in the same leg (left), with us the second year after the Cup win (2007-08). Both times he returned weeks ahead of the typical rehab window. In early April of 2008 he left with a back injury, but was fine after the off-season--until tearing his achilles tendon in an off-ice, pre-season workout prior to the start of the 08-09 season. He came back from that one sooner than the normal rehab window too--only to have his hand broken by a slapper off his own teammate's stick. More recently there was his cheekbone goal. And you STILL can't keep him out of the slot.

 

OK, I misremembered.  I DO know Eaves struggled with us during his active shoulder.

 

Mrs. wxray brings up the "almost original HWSNBN" with regard to that broken hand from the slapper.  She called him "Bam Bam!"  Blank stare, difficulty with language.  It was kind of like: "Me is SNBN, I slap pucks.  Hard.  Get out of way!"

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

It made neither side look bad to me. Neither would budge and both exercised rights that their parent orgs (Owners and NHLPA) mutually agreed to.

 

Question Aho's loyalty if you want, but greed is a stretch. I choose to believe that when the puck drops, these guys are professionals who want to make as much as they can at work--just like you and me.

 

If anything Aho has only put further pressure on himself to perform, and not just for his next deal, but to quiet all those looking for something to wring their hands over in the off-season. Like you.

Not to mention Aho spent the his first 3 years in the league being woefully under paid. He played like a top 5-10 draft pick as a second rounder. He outplayed people on the team making millions while he made a few hundred thousand. Its not greedy to serve your time and wants yours when you can get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

JW tore both an ACL and MCL on the same play in Philly. He tore both again, in the same leg (left), with us the second year after the Cup win (2007-08). Both times he returned weeks ahead of the typical rehab window. In early April of 2008 he left with a back injury, but was fine after the off-season--until tearing his achilles tendon in an off-ice, pre-season workout prior to the start of the 08-09 season. He came back from that one sooner than the normal rehab window too--only to have his hand broken by a slapper off his own teammate's stick. More recently there was his cheekbone goal. And you STILL can't keep him out of the slot.

top, I was going to answer wxray that I didn't recall JWilly hurting his shoulder, but he'd suffered substantial injury to his knee. Honestly did not as vividly recall all the rest of his myriad injuries, just that at the point of his eventual trade, some thought his playing days could be over? Thanks for re impressing me with his amazing resiliency thru his career. No wonder guys look up to him in that locker room.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Derailed75 said:

Not to mention Aho spent the his first 3 years in the league being woefully under paid. He played like a top 5-10 draft pick as a second rounder. He outplayed people on the team making millions while he made a few hundred thousand. Its not greedy to serve your time and wants yours when you can get it.

Absolutely, and if the NHLPA is smart, the next thing it'll do is push for scale contracts like in the NBA, where the amounts rookies are eligible to make are tied to draft position--though it still wouldn't have helped SeaBass.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, KJUNKANE said:

top, I was going to answer wxray that I didn't recall JWilly hurting his shoulder, but he'd suffered substantial injury to his knee. Honestly did not as vividly recall all the rest of his myriad injuries, just that at the point of his eventual trade, some thought his playing days could be over? Thanks for re impressing me with his amazing resiliency thru his career. No wonder guys look up to him in that locker room.

Yeah, he gives new meaning to the word "stud." First ballot HOFer if anybody is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Absolutely, and if the NHLPA is smart, the next thing it'll do is push for scale contracts like in the NBA, where the amounts rookies are eligible to make are tied to draft position--though it still wouldn't have helped SeaBass.

Good point.  I think they will push for scale.  I don't know where it would stop, first 5?

 

If they do, it will get interesting.  Some teams will "want their money's worth."  Could be perilous for some player's development.  Smart teams wouldn't do that.

 

But we're ahead of ourselves.  We'll have plenty of time to discuss such nuances during the next work stoppage. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Random thought: Offers sheets are kind of like an alternative means and fast track option for player arbitration when otherwise not available. No? It's just that another team decides your worth and not an "arbitrator".

Edited by sleekfeeder
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...