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2 hours ago, remkin said:

Says their offering "secondary forwards". I'd argue we don't need those and certainly not for the names they want on D. (Faulk, DeHaan, Hamilton), 

 

 

Right there with you.

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41 minutes ago, Canesfanforever said:

I would be awesome is Debrincat   was 6'2  200  pounds .  but he is a small fry . 

Debrincat would have been a top 15 pick if he was 6’2

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6 hours ago, remkin said:

Says their offering "secondary forwards". I'd argue we don't need those and certainly not for the names they want on D. (Faulk, DeHaan, Hamilton), 

Kahun or Perlini.  Really?

 

"Let's see if Waddell is totally clueless.  Let's throw some trash out there and see if he bites."

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3 hours ago, AWACSooner said:

Kahun and a 5th to the Evil Empire for Maata 

 

https://es.pn/2KUBnUn

JR "I Have Zero Clue Whatsoever" strikes again.

 

This is one of those "perish the thought" things, but no matter how I try to ignore it, it keeps coming up: I'm a little concerned (emphasis on a little) that SeaBass might not be built for #1C in this league for the long haul. Now again, I emphasize a little. It was the kid's third year, and it was a (so far in his young) career year. I think we all know, too, that the knee-knee with Nino--well, something happened after that. If all that's not enough, it was also more games than he's ever played in a year; he was slotted into the role we envision him filling; and (up until that collision), he was ABSOLUTELY doing it. 

 

Football, basketball, UFC--none of them make the physical demands that 82 games and then up to 28 more, each of which is harder the last, make on a body. So I am chalking this (again!) SMALL concern up to the fact that this was Aho's first experience with that full continuum, and that he's still a kid in terms of his physique; he just doesn't have full-grown-man proportions yet, and I think over the next two years he'll get them. Plus, of every Cane, even at this early stage of his career, he's clearly the hockey-smartest, most driven, and most determined to do whatever he is asked and (more important) whatever HE thinks is necessary to become one of the all-time greats of the game. It is more than obvious that is what drives him.

 

The question is, are we confident enough that will happen to pay him like he already is? It's easy to say yes when it's not my money, but when I put myself in TD's/DW's/RB's place, that question gets a lot more real.

 

In a perfect world, you give the kid a fair bridge deal; three years at, say, $6.5 or $7 million, maybe with a guarantee (read: carrot) of renegotiation of the third year at the end of the second. He'd be the highest-paid center on the team, yet that kind of deal would acknowledge that he still has a hurdle or two to clear. 

 

Skills-wise he absolutely can be the #1 center who leads us to the promised land. He just needs the man-body to withstand the punishment of a potentially 100-plus game campaign, something few 21-year-olds have. But these next two to three years will tell the tale. If he doesn't fill out and you pay him #1 center money now, well... do you just write it off to experience? Pretty expensive.

 

In the two years of Eric Staal's bridge deal, he put up 70 and 82 points. But for the strike-shortened 48-game season, that was the last time he attained full point-per-game status. Then we signed him to stupid money because Jim Rutherford--despite his having to know, under that owner, that we'd never pay supporting players what was necessary to keep them, and have the team cohesion necessary to build a winner.

 

Now the situation is different. Even if Aho topped out as an overpaid #2, the owner is younger, richer, and likely to only get richer--so he'd be able to pay a bonafide #1, if it turned out Aho isn't it. Plus, he's already paying some (and will be signing and paying more) supporting guys to long-term deals. So in terms of financial strategy and recognizing that a goalie and a center is not a core, this is a very different org.

 

All of this (and I am sorry for the length) is to say that if Aho insists on his payday deal now, I think you have to do it. But in the next CBA,  I'd sure like to see a requirement of at least a two-year bridge deal between the ELC and long-term deal of any player who joins the league before his 20th birthday.

 

If you (really??) want to read (still) more on this topic (then again, it is the off-season...), there's a nice, comprehensive piece on it here.

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Top.

 

Aho was by far the best player on the team last year. He has gotten better every season. If you dont pay him like he is the best player on the team right now, then he won't be on the team much longer. It's just the way sports go, even more so for smaller market teams. If TD doesnt pay him someone else will. 

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If I were to guess Aho’s team is looking close to the predicted amount of 8 years, 82 million and the management is trying to use Draisaitl as a comp. Draisaitl has a 8.5 million cap hit.

 

or it could lock out protection signing bonus money.

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top, Your analysis is spot on and thank you for it's objectivity and thoroughness. At least to me, it underscored the durability factor required of a 1C, particularly if he is the major scorer on your team. I'll be sure to read the article you've cited too.

Edited by KJUNKANE

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I get the concern over Aho as 1C.  But wherever he ends up playing, this is a guy who absolutely needs to get paid. Any problems signing him would be a massive step back for this organization right when all momentum is driving ahead. 

 

Aho has been on the roster for 246 games. He has played in 242 of them including 2 full 82 game seasons. One can't predict the future, but like TT, Aho doesn't get hit much. 

 

While he doesn't play the traditional "heavy, leaning on the D. big center" role, he is defensively responsible. He has been #3 on the team in +/- for two years running.  And as further evidence that there is at least thread of usefulness in that stat at the extremes, Aho, has been a +/- leader everywhere he's played. In fact in the World Juniors with Pulji and Laine, Aho was the one who finished at the top of the tourney (I think #2, but can't recall) in +/-.  What I'm saying is that, despite going head to head with the best lines in hockey, the guy was +25 last year. He does the things that lead to winning. 

 

Just as a comparison, Jeff Skinner, who is now the $9 million, NTC man, had his second best plus-minus year last year where despite putting in 40 goals himself, he managed to be 0. Yes, as many goals scored against with Skinner on the ice 5/5 as for. And Skinner's best year ever was his rookie season where he managed +3. And his career numbers? -96. 

 

Continuing on Aho. His points totals from his 19 year old year to this year: 49, 65, 83.  Forwards supposedly peak around 26-27. Aho is 21. We all saw the physical drop off at the end of the year. We saw the knee brace. We then heard Brind'Amour admit that he played the last 20 games and the playoffs with an injury. We also saw a goals drop off at the end of the year. He had zero goals in his last 14 games. Had he kept up his season's pace, he'd have dropped in 6 more goals for 89 points. 

 

That would have tied him with Ovechikin and one ahead of Tavares. At 21 years old. Sure it's fun with numbers, but if he stays healthy he is capable of pushing it to 90 points this season. Only 14 players hit that this year, and this was an up year for scoring.

 

With all due respect to Brind'Amour's manlove for Jordan, Aho is the best player on the team, with Slavin right nearby. We just need to get it done and pay him. Whatever position we play him, he will earn the money.

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rem, I have no problem with those thoughts, and feel that Aho should be paid appropriately for multi years. I do however wonder and am concerned for Sebastian's slight frame, despite as you've pointed out, "doesn't get hit much". Refamiliarizing myself with playoffs, after our 10 year hiatus, it was indeed sobering to witness the violence on display that I'd forgotten about. Many small frame players do weather the storm, but $8.5 mil or whatever is the eventual figure, is at risk. That fact is sobering? 

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1 hour ago, coastal_caniac said:

Aho is our best player.  Just stick him somewhere and he's still our best player.  Pay the man. 

 

That is all.

Don't think it can be said any better.

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1 hour ago, coastal_caniac said:

Aho is our best player.  Just stick him somewhere and he's still our best player.  Pay the man. 

 

That is all.

At least for now. Svech had a pretty damn impressive rookie campaign 

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14 hours ago, Derailed75 said:

Top.

 

Aho was by far the best player on the team last year. He has gotten better every season. If you dont pay him like he is the best player on the team right now, then he won't be on the team much longer. It's just the way sports go, even more so for smaller market teams. If TD doesnt pay him someone else will. 

Oh, I see: "It's the way she goes."

 

Except that he's an RFA, not an FA. Which makes all the difference. Nobody can pay him unless we let them.

 

Plus, I didn't say don't pay him like he's the best player on the team. He is, and at 6.5 million or 7, we'd be paying him like it. All I'm saying is bridging makes a lot more sense than paying him like he's among the best in the LEAGUE until you know he'll get there. Gadreau, who had 99 points last year, signed at 6.5 per year for six years... when he turned 23.

 

Making guys who enter the league early wait 'til they're 23 to get their payoff deals sounds like common sense to me, and it used to be a lot more common, as the article I linked to points out.

 

I have to laugh when owners lock players out complaining that salaries are "out of control!!"--as if they had nothing to do with it.

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51 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Y'all seem to have serious problems with reading comprehension. 

I read that article top and "serious problems with reading comprehension" is, to me, a little overstated? While I followed and agreed with your reasoning above, and the immediate jump to pay a blossoming player how do you phrase it, "fat stacks", somewhat reminds me of the axiom "what have you done for me lately", that article left me thinking that a bridge deal vs a long term, multi year early deal is a crap shoot, that is, some work out and others backfire? I do like the reasoning that a bridge deal somewhat is a "show me" type of carrot, but what I took away from that article you cite is that depending on the atmosphere, the player could begin to resent being maybe taken for granted and/or taken advantage of, and would like to make up if you will in the next contract? And I say, "depending on the atmosphere" because I would think if the player/his agent does have a good relationship with the GM, than that might offset some of that building animosity?

 

Certainly the other route, a long term maximum year deal, is to gamble a great deal on the initial glimpses of the player banking that his early trend will continue. The risk here is that the early play will not continue to escalate and subsequent play will be overpay, but if the great play continues, then there is great bargain in later years?

 

So, in summary, the article left me with the impression that either salary tract can be a risk. I very much agree though that ever mounting salaries are laid at the feet of the owners, who then scratch their collective heads and have to go thru work stoppages at that point to rein in their ill advised spending. We the fans then pay the price for reckless extravagance? For those on here who've never been through a lost season, believe me, if you think Apr-Sept or June-Sept are "dog days", you've not lived until you go crazy during a lockout. You just do not want to know. So, these darn billionaire owners need to consider some plan of restraint in order not to have to resort to collective bargaining, and maybe if more would use the "bridge deals" in approach to salaries, than the NHL will not get into the range of these idiotic baseball/basketball salaries?

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Y'all seem to have serious problems with reading comprehension. 

i NeVer lEARneD tO rEaD

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12 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Y'all seem to have serious problems with reading comprehension. 

 

Speaking of reading comprehension......maybe we just don't agree with you.

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I know there is risk either way, but a bridge deal could make Aho a UFA in relatively short order. I’d love to sign him for the full 8 years. That’s what teams have done with other elite players, even early in their career. Maybe Seabass only wants a 4 or 5 year deal, gambling on himself and what he might be worth as the cap rises and if his play continues its upward trend. That could be one of the sticking points-length of contract, and not necessarily the Canes wanting a shorter deal. But in an ideal world, I’d lock him up for 8 years. To me, he’s worth every bit as much as Skinner, actually more. Buffalo probably overpaid for Skinner, but what they got was a player who is really good at one important thing (scoring goals), and not so good at much of anything else. Aho is the whole package, and only 21 to boot. And as several others have said, a protracted negotiation with our best player sends a bad message about the organization. Not to far down the road, Aho or Slavin will wear the C and both will be our team leaders. I hope we don’t have to pay crazy money to do it, but we need to get Aho signed long term.

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There is no pressure on Aho to sign a deal where he isn't going to get paid.  If the Canes low ball him, he'll sign an offer sheet and the team can match or not.  A team can offer $8M a year and the compensation is a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.  Many teams in the league would sign up for that, so that is the bottom number to start from.  If the Canes want to buy some of his UFA years, it's going to cost.

 

Fans too often confuse our fandom with the financial reality of the players and agents seeking contracts.  I could become the fan of another team for a few million dollars.  Why should we expect players to be different?

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Donnie Waddell was on 99.9 last week and stated (paraphrasing) -  We [the Canes] want an 8-year deal with Aho, no bridge deal or 5-year deal. That has not changed since November. He also stated that the two sides will talk more at the draft. He has no definitive time table to get a deal done.

 

From that interview I take it that from the Cane's perspective, it's all now about how much the contract will be and the details of structuring the contract (front loaded or not, bonuses, etc.).

 

Aho may be thinking something different - I have no idea - but I doubt he's interested in a bridge deal either.  Why wouldn't he be wanting max term at the most $?

 

 

Edited by coastal_caniac

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With Karlsson signing the 8 x 11-11.5 deal, Pavelski should be a top target for us.

 

They will have a hard time getting their roster filled out with 13 million and needing to re-sign Meier.

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