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In Season Talk 2019-20

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So, I was in the "forget about JW" camp, maybe not as much as cc, but I was there.  My posts prove it.

 

I have to admit, with Martinook going down with injury, there is a vacuum.  I'm warming up to JW rejoining.  But he has to be in shape, and he has to take a serious home town discount.

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2 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

That distraction largely got us to the conference finals last year.

The person is not the distraction.  The unknown nature of a decision that might be made is.  Never said the man , his past contributions or potential future impact should be discounted or minimized.   I understand this humble opinion is not popular. 

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49 minutes ago, cc said:

The person is not the distraction.  The unknown nature of a decision that might be made is.  Never said the man , his past contributions or potential future impact should be discounted or minimized.   I understand this humble opinion is not popular. 

And this is where I totally agree, cc.  I'm warming up to the idea of JW, but come on, EDIT or get off the pot.  Stop the uncertainty.

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52 minutes ago, cc said:

I understand this humble opinion is not popular.

cc, while it is "not popular" due to the very nature of this player, I do view it as pragmatic. Still I don't understand your thought "unknown nature of a decision"? I guess it's referring to what wxray then posted?

Edited by KJUNKANE

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

That distraction largely got us to the conference finals last year.

 

This team lacks leadership. It has taken strides, but the difference between the loss to the Ducks and the loss to CBJ put that fact in stark relief. The Anaheim game was over after one period because their veteran leaders understand how to shut teams down, and ours couldn't (or didn't) calm the guys down and get them refocused. The game in Columbus should have been over when we scored three straight after giving up the first goal. All it took was keeping the foot on the gas. Instead we let them back in and lost. Veteran leadership might have changed both results. 

 

And how bringing back a guy who can still clearly play and has the respect of every guy in the room (and every fan in the stands) is a distraction... well, you're gonna have to explain that one to me.

 

This. For all that he means to the team, Jordan has never been and never will be the veteran leader this team needs. Right now, we have two persons who can fill that role, and one of them can do it even better than the other. Here's hoping that Martinook returns soon. But If we're going to go deep in the playoffs, I think JW needs to come back and do what he does best.  

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39 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

cc, while it is "not popular" due to the very nature of this player, I do view it as pragmatic. Still I don't understand your thought "unknown nature of a decision"? I guess it's referring to what wxray then posted?

Can't speak for cc, but uncertainty kills.  Here we are, as a fanbase, wasting bytes and internet time worrying about this.

What's happening in the room?  Are they going to look for a savior?

 

At my work, when we went through leadership turmoil, it was very, very disruptive.  People kind of just paused for a while.  The best transitions I saw were ones where they immediately made changes 100%.  The worst were where someone stepped down and hung out in the background for a while until they found a new leader.  It just caused a bit of chaos, and a lot of uncertainty for everyone's future.

 

There may be some other stuff behind the scenes we don't know about to help soften this worry.  I don't know.

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2 hours ago, wxray1 said:

So, I was in the "forget about JW" camp, maybe not as much as cc, but I was there.  My posts prove it.

 

I have to admit, with Martinook going down with injury, there is a vacuum.  I'm warming up to JW rejoining.  But he has to be in shape, and he has to take a serious home town discount.

Wow, I can not believe I am reading this.  JW lead the team, on his sturdy back, into the playoffs, for the first time in 9 years.  He lead them to 2 series wins and drew a blueprint of what it takes to get to the next level.  He knows that this roster, even with Martinook in the lineup, is too soft to get to that next step.  Even adding him to the roster, which will be huge, won't be enough.  One more player with "attitude" is going to have to be acquired at the trade deadline in order to embellish the skilled forward acquisitions the Canes have made.  As far as money, the team needs to find a way to play him properly, none of this home town discount BS.  If that means moving a contract such as TVR, do it.  He would not come back unless he was in shape.  I fathom the reasoning for shortening the season in the first place was to insure he could maintain that shape from his starting point through a potential Cup run.

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How soon we all forget that we used to suck...like, really bad, and in recent memory. Now, we're off to the best start in franchise history and here we are talking about "getting to the next level" and whether or not an aging player who is a great leader, but hasn't committed to the team this year is the "leadership answer" to what this club needs. I like that it isn't enough for fans and we want to win really bad. I love it. But consider that we are playing well and haven't even seen production from our top guys yet. So check me if I'm wrong, Sandy, but if we kill the leadership in place, we kill the team. I LOVE JW, but if we can't do it with the squad we have, one player likely isn't the difference. The fact that JW is "on the fence", despite everything he has done for the team, is selfish. He should have started the season if he wanted to play. The fact that he isn't the difference if he plays well (my opinion), what if the worst case scenario happens? What if he joins the team 20 games in and sucks......then what? Are we really going to give minutes to a 38 yr old player who isn't producing when we already have a solid team in place? So, having said that, I'm done with the JW scenario. If he joins, great. If he doesn't, that's fine too because he is not the difference between a Cup and an early exit. You go to war with the Army you have.....      

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33 minutes ago, beboplar said:

Wow, I can not believe I am reading this. 

 

Isn't that what makes life great?  We all see things differently.  Amazing.  I respect your points but don't completely agree either.

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Having served in the military for over 20 years I have seen good leaders come and go.  A great leader will make a huge impact in the way troops respond.   JW was an amazing leader and his ability to tell it like it is during interviews spoke volumes.   The troops heard him and I can't imagine how effective he must have been in the locker room between periods.   Jordan Staal I am sure is a good person and a nice guy.   But I really do not think he has the leadership qualities that it takes to motivate players.   His interviews sound like he is reading from a script and sound so canned that I almost fall asleep listening to him.   His play on the ice is o.k.but nowhere near the level to warrant the comment "He shows his leadership on the ice".   It never ceases to amaze me how one person can have such a huge impact on a team.   JW was that person.  

 

 

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I was down on the idea for a while - i think my exact words in reference to re-signing him at this point were 'let's not and say we did'.  That said, i'm more on the fence now, especially if they're not going to give Bishop/Gaut/Geekie the chance to fill Nook's slot and would rather shuttle Gibbons back and forth (just read he's been called up again today - not sure why they bothered sending him down in that case) and/or run 7 defensemen and only play Fleury in the 3rd period.  I have no issue with Gibbons but if they're going to hem and haw him instead of just putting them there, i'd feel more comfortable with Williams in that slot - at least then we know who we have.  Agreed, though, he needs to be in game shape and the cost has to make sense.

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5 minutes ago, realmdrakkar said:

I was down on the idea for a while - i think my exact words in reference to re-signing him at this point were 'let's not and say we did'.  That said, i'm more on the fence now, especially if they're not going to give Bishop/Gaut/Geekie the chance to fill Nook's slot and would rather shuttle Gibbons back and forth (just read he's been called up again today - not sure why they bothered sending him down in that case) and/or run 7 defensemen and only play Fleury in the 3rd period.  I have no issue with Gibbons but if they're going to hem and haw him instead of just putting them there, i'd feel more comfortable with Williams in that slot - at least then we know who we have.  Agreed, though, he needs to be in game shape and the cost has to make sense.

I've read that it's because the cap is calculated by the day. Gibbons didn't play in Charlotte's last game on Saturday, I'm thinking he's being moved up and down on paper only.

 

Seems like a great way to *edit* a guy outta money though.

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1 hour ago, wxray1 said:

 

Isn't that what makes life great?  We all see things differently.  Amazing.  I respect your points but don't completely agree either.

The only letter JW needs to wear on his sweater is W, for Winner.  Winner for the Canes, winner for the Kings, winner for the Caps, soldier for the Flyers.  What player on the Canes roster can anyone look to as someone who has seen this thing through, in terms of going all the way?  JW's value to this club this year would be immeasurable.  If anyone disagrees take 2 pills and call the doc in the morning.

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4 hours ago, legend-1 said:

 

Seems like a great way to *edit* a guy outta money though

Please don't take this personal legend, but I don't know why as fans of this team, we help to perpetuate this myth of "cheapness" of our owner/organization that continually is spread by the media, particularly from Canadian side of the border. I mean, surely this might be about the "bottom line", but just as well may be about safety by not having to drive back and forth to Charlotte. Or could it be because the player prefers the situation, or maybe to spare him the additional physical stress of the trip? Or finally, would he prefer to have workouts with the big team rather that AHLers?

 

Now, I don't pretend to know the answer to this, maybe it is about Waddell trying to save up $$ to more easily afford to bring JW back or he has other irons in the fire, but I for one prefer to think that it's more than "way to *edit* a guy outta money"? Then, maybe you were being facetious?

Edited by KJUNKANE

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Given everything we've seen, I could see it being about squeezing every penny we can to maximize cap space (for either Willy or a TD acquisition). I'd be surprised if it was about squeezing an AHLer out of a few dollars.

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I think their are two downsides to a J Williams return, but I still like the upside much better. 

 

Downside 1: He's aged out and it not really capable anymore. There is nothing about last year to suggest that, but father time catches everyone eventually. Further, it is hard to not play a long time, then just skate and be NHL ready. I would think he's almost have to take some AHL games, but can he? Would he? And if he did kick a guy off the roster and then struggle, it could go negative.

 

Downside 2: He would take another guy's slot. Players can get weird about that, depending on the guy who gets booted for the old guy who took half the year off. An extension of this is that he might keep a guy like Goat from getting a shot. 

 

Both of these would be greatly reduced if J Williams replaced or higher guy.ight now, Gibbons is the 12th forward. He's up and down and pretty much a career AHL-NHL tweener, so J Williams replacing him is no big deal. But he better do it soon before Martinook comes back and Williams is booting McGinn or Foegele out. 

 

But in the end, unless he is replacing a younger 50 point (Necas)ll still be worth having him back. Not just for the leadership, but for the points and the veteran savvy. I don't get the idea that J Williams is some kind of intimidator though. He is a wily veteran, but not a physical force. 

 

I'd have him back, and it could be a huge shot in the arm and a brilliant way to both show the team they can win without him, and keep his body from wear and tear.

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10 hours ago, cc said:

The unknown nature of a decision that might be made is. 

I don't think there's anything unknown, He's skating again for obvious reasons. The only question is whether he feels he can contribute, because if we know anything about him, it's that he's not going to play if he isn't 100 percent sure of that. 

 

Besides, we've got plenty of unknowns already, like why the hell the coach breaks up TT and Aho. If there's one thing Rod took from BP that I hate, it's the (false) idea that spreading talent throughout the lineup, even when doing it breaks up chemistry so obvious that even Fat Stacks can see it, is worth it--and that doing it makes even more sense, somehow, when your franchise player has three goals, and two are into empty nets. 

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3 hours ago, gocanes0506 said:

Got to get 4 points at a minimum this week against the Flames. Red Wings and Devils coming to town.  Hope is to get at least 5 though. 

No reason we can’t run the table, but I know how it goes. There’s a stinker in there somewhere.

 

Detroit seems to give us fits no matter how bad they are 😶

Edited by surfzone365

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8 hours ago, wxray1 said:

There may be some other stuff behind the scenes we don't know about to help soften this worry.  I don't know.

The response against the Hawks was positive, and I think we're probably more worried than we need to be. But I do think a greybeard has a calming influence, particularly one who has seen all that Willy has.

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5 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

The response against the Hawks was positive, and I think we're probably more worried than we need to be. But I do think a greybeard has a calming influence, particularly one who has seen all that Willy has.

"Calming influence" particularly when I see your avatar top, haha.

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Heard from a friend of an acquaintance with questionable ties to Calgary that with 7 goals and 2 assists this season Lindholm has bought a box of white strips. We’ll see come Wednesday when someone knocks him in the yap for his cheap a$$ skol clap last season. 

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1 hour ago, remkin said:

Downside 1: He's aged out and it not really capable anymore. There is nothing about last year to suggest that, but father time catches everyone eventually.

 

1 hour ago, remkin said:

He is a wily veteran, but not a physical force.

 

1 hour ago, remkin said:

I'd have him back, and it could be a huge shot in the arm and a brilliant way to both show the team they can win without him, and keep his body from wear and tear.

Agreed with all but in this regard. Quote 1 in particular. Although he put up fantastic "wiley" veteran numbers, I believe part of his decision to sit for at least a while this year was the way he felt from winter til late spring, and not just felt, but IMO the very noticeable way he slowed on chasing loose pucks and inability getting to up ice and open ice with pucks on his stick. This is no way saying he can't compete, because he did in big ways, but he also knows he has lost a step better than anyone who's watching. Couple that with the pride of a man like him on top of watching for two years the direction of high pace, speed hockey he's watching develop not just with the Canes, but the league overall taking a noticeable jump in pace over a few years time. Pride may drive some athletes to overstay, but a pragmatic, honest(with himself too) like JW would never want to be in a situation where he evolved to a weak link on the ice(and I'd bet my last dollar he's thought on that, they all do), regardless of the leadership provided in mentoring and guiding young players. I LOVE the guy, favorite cane ever, but it would hurt me also to see him hurt if he came to realize he just couldn't give it the full 100% of a full blown contributing hockey player. He's always been cut that way, so I would be ok either way, but my preference would be to hear him say something like, "Why ruin a good legend"?. Then become ultra useful around the arena, practices, and with struggling players in some sort of consultant role. There's a place for him in this town, a place for him in the game, and maybe a perfectly special place in the lives of young, hungry, learning to win players.  2 CENTS.

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29 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I don't think there's anything unknown, He's skating again for obvious reasons. The only question is whether he feels he can contribute, because if we know anything about him, it's that he's not going to play if he isn't 100 percent sure of that.

Well stated, as I got to somewhere in my rambling.

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2 hours ago, KJUNKANE said:

Please don't take this personal legend, but I don't know why as fans of this team, we help to perpetuate this myth of "cheapness" of our owner/organization that continually is spread by the media, particularly from Canadian side of the border. I mean, surely this might be about the "bottom line", but just as well may be about safety by not having to drive back and forth to Charlotte. Or could it be because the player prefers the situation, or maybe to spare him the additional physical stress of the trip? Or finally, would he prefer to have workouts with the big team rather that AHLers?

 

Now, I don't pretend to know the answer to this, maybe it is about Waddell trying to save up $$ to more easily afford to bring JW back or he has other irons in the fire, but I for one prefer to think that it's more than "way to *edit* a guy outta money"? Then, maybe you were being facetious?

 

If anything I accidentally implied el cheapo where I didn't mean it. I was coming at it more from the observation he's on a 2 way of 725k and 100k and seems to be getting the 100k pay rate way more often then his NHL rate and my mindset was "Well that sucks for him" and didn't even think of it as cheapo just getting the raw end of smart business moves.

 

If anyone here still thinks we're el cheapo while spending to the cap and literally buying a 1st rounder for millions of dollars, you're an idiot. That's where I stand on that.

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