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In Season Talk 2019-20

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1 hour ago, KJUNKANE said:

We sadly missed Ferland while he played for us?

 

 

Only for two periods a night.  We could usually get the first one before he was done for the night.

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49 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

I'm just stating g this team severely lacks grit.

Although I can’t stand the Bruins, Caps, Blues, and Ducks.... those teams  have a history of being physical, aggressive, and punishing on their opponents. That in itself goes a long way toward success.

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So you barely show up here for weeks, and suddenly you know all about how the team is playing?

 

If we'd had a guy like Edmundson to step in when *edit* like Ristolainen tried on Skinner the kinda crap he pulled on the much smaller on Aho and McGinn the other night, we might still have one of the league's purest goal scorers on our roster. Funny how Roddy never complains about Aho's "lack of toughness," but instead went out and got someone to protect him.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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16 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

So you barely show up here for weeks, and suddenly you know all about how the team is playing?

 

If we'd had a guy like Edmundson to step in when *edit* like Ristolainen tried on Skinner the kinda crap he pulled on the much smaller on Aho and McGinn the other night, we might still have one of the league's purest goal scorers on our roster. Funny how Roddy never complains about Aho's "lack of toughness," but instead went out and got someone to protect him.

 

 

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

So you barely show up here for weeks, and suddenly you know all about how the team is playing?

 

If we'd had a guy like Edmundson to step in when *edit* like Ristolainen tried on Skinner the kinda crap he pulled on the much smaller on Aho and McGinn the other night, we might still have one of the league's purest goal scorers on our roster. Funny how Roddy never complains about Aho's "lack of toughness," but instead went out and got someone to protect him.

 

Except that isn’t why Skinner isn’t on the roster at all.  Skinner scoring 30+ goals and still going minus 10 with all of his points being ES is why.  He is directly responsible for his minus rating.

 

Rod wants 200 foot players not play when you want its convenient to score players.

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16 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

The team needs more grit.  We are missing Ferland.

You're out of your mind (more than normal). We went on our run last year when he was out. He's been out most of this year. What is it he brings that we are missing? We've had plenty of games lost to injury without him.

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

 

So you barely show up here for weeks, and suddenly you know all about how the team is playing?

 

One- why the attack? Two- a posters following of the game is not predicated by posting on this board. Chill out.

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2 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

So you barely show up here for weeks, and suddenly you know all about how the team is playing?

 

If we'd had a guy like Edmundson to step in when *edit* like Ristolainen tried on Skinner the kinda crap he pulled on the much smaller on Aho and McGinn the other night, we might still have one of the league's purest goal scorers on our roster. Funny how Roddy never complains about Aho's "lack of toughness," but instead went out and got someone to protect him.

 

 

First off, I watch every game.  Just because I do not post on here doesn't mean I don't watch.  I have seen this team consistently get man handled by the likes of Columbus with their relentless fore checks as the win every single battle on the boards.  I watched a physical NJ team take it to us.  I like how you rant about McGinn a fringe NHL player that brings nothing to the table and yet you ask me if I actually follow this team?

 

Furthermore,  you talk about Skinner but seem to forget how elite defensively he was.  Then you tell me if I even watched the team?  It's apparent you don't with those comments.

Edited by bluedevil58

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A little after the fact to be debating Ferland's value! However, his stat line for a pretty good Vancouver team is: 12GP, 1G, 4A, -1; and again on IR like the last 2 seasons with a concussion. He got 4 years at 3.5M per. No thanks; glad we let him walk. He is WAY overpaid, with too much term, a 2 year full NMC, and then a 2 year partial NMC. He will be bought out before the end of his deal!!

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26 minutes ago, AssistantGM said:

A little after the fact to be debating Ferland's value! However, his stat line for a pretty good Vancouver team is: 12GP, 1G, 4A, -1; and again on IR like the last 2 seasons with a concussion. He got 4 years at 3.5M per. No thanks; glad we let him walk. He is WAY overpaid, with too much term, a 2 year full NMC, and then a 2 year partial NMC. He will be bought out before the end of his deal!!

To think he wanted Wilson money plus.  Glad we avoided that.

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I'm not saying we need Ferland but we need what he brought minus the IR debacle.  I have yet to see a forward land the hits that he is capable of landing.  I also don't really see anyone dropping the gloves.  There are a fee tikes but nobody is doing it on a consistent basis.

 

This team has a ton of skill.  But it is short by one physical 40 point forward.   Will things be different now that Martinook is back?  Maybe.  I will stand by my statement though.

Edited by bluedevil58

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1 hour ago, cclifford10 said:

You're out of your mind (more than normal). We went on our run last year when he was out. He's been out most of this year. What is it he brings that we are missing? We've had plenty of games lost to injury without him.

 

Big hits, dropping of the gloves on a consistent basis.  40 points or so.  Not saying we need HIM back.  But some things that he brought were nice.  Aside from the whole injury thing.

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7 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

I'm not saying we need Ferland but we need what he brought minus the IR debacle

Now that I can agree with bd58, not that Ferland is specifically who we need, but what he brought. Edmundson is not quite that level, but in that he is much more durable, not getting concussed with it seemed every other hit, that he is more dependable. Don't get me wrong on this Ferland issue, because when he 1st arrived and brought that grit, it was like a breath of fresh air not enjoyed by this team in forever. Furthermore, it crushed me when Ferls' Achilles heel for injury, primarily concussions, begin to show up.But the decision to not give him a long term deal was very astute, and it appears from what he's now experiencing in Vancouver that we dodged a bullet there.We still may need one more player to produce that "pop", but thankfully it won't be Ferland.

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I'm interested in how much physicality teams need to be good in today's NHL. Fighting is way down. It's fairly uncommon to see a real knock down drag out fight anymore. They still happen, but they are less and less. Big hits. Yes, there is no doubt that big hits can directly lead to dislodging the puck and even rushed clears leading to turnovers. BUT there are other ways to turn the puck over. I've noticed that we do a lot of stick play. One way to turnover the puck is a big hit. But to do that, the player needs to get much closer to the opponent and with some speed to make the hit which frequently takes the hitter way out of position, especially if the hit is missed. A player can reach, what, 8 feet in front of him with his stick and still stay in position. The puck, the thing we want, is after all, on the ice. 

 

Before I go on, let me say this. Hockey is a physical game. Hits and intimidation are part of it. I am not advocating playing it entirely like it's an All Star game. I'm talking about employing a predominantly physical game relative to the league. Is that important, or how important is it? OK...

 

The stats also suggest that we are more interested in takeaways than hits. We are #26 in the league in hits. BUT we are #4 in takeaways (games played adjusted). The other teams above and around us in take-aways? Vegas, Edmonton, Calgary, San Jose, Colorado, Nashville, Florida, and Washington. 

 

Teams leading the league in hits? Ottawa (#1). Pittsburgh, Vegas, Chicago, Montreal, Winnepeg. Then some good teams..

But the bottom of the league in hits includes Nashville, Calgary, NJD, Colorado, Florida, Carolina, Dallas, Arizona, Tampa. 

 

The point is that there isn't much correlation with hits and winning. There is for takeaways.

 

When Brind'Amour is asked about the physical and the chippy rough stuff, his answer is usually, "we won't back down", not "we're a physical team" or "we like to hit", or "that's a big part of our game". Yes, we said we needed more toughness two offseasons ago. But we really needed more mental toughness and a couple of key removals. We thought we needed the thump of Ferland, and for the first half, it really did seem that way. But then, we realized we didn't need him, as he was not much of a part of the post Christmas run or the playoffs.

 

The standard received wisdom is that you have to be physical to compete in the playoffs and to win the cup. Last year, St. Louis was #24 in the NHL in hits. OK, but in the playoffs? #9/16. Just below average. BTW Boston was #11 in hits in the playoffs. Again, can't back down, but going around hitting everyone? Nope. 

 

Washington was pretty physical the year before, but before that, Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Detroit won 7/10 Stanley Cups. A lot of people remember the big bad physical LA teams, but they were the exception. And at least one year they won it they barely even got into the playoffs. And they has a lot of scorers then too.

 

I'm not saying we can be the Candy Canes. There is definitely an element of sandpaper needed. We can't back down. And yes a disruptively physical player can create havoc, and teams seem to need at least one or two big, intimidating guys to keep the other team from taking too many liberties. But the fundamental game is speed and creating turnovers with that speed, as well as with the stick. The lion's share of the "physical" is that kind of non stop aggression. Getting sticks on pucks and sticks on passes is hugely more disruptive than a couple of big hits. BTW I see this in years and years of games when we don't do well also. Some see other teams physically taking it to us in our bad games, but for me, I know we're not bringing our A game more when our passes don't get through, and the other team's sticks seem to disrupt everything we're trying to do. 

 

So, yes, don't back down. But speed and stick skills and tenacious forechecking is our game. Luckily it's been a winning game for a lot of really good teams. Including us.

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3 hours ago, gocanes0506 said:

Except that isn’t why Skinner isn’t on the roster at all.  Skinner scoring 30+ goals and still going minus 10 with all of his points being ES is why.  He is directly responsible for his minus rating.

 

Rod wants 200 foot players not play when you want its convenient to score players.

Except He played on absolute crap Canes teams for many years. Hanging that stat on his play alone is meaningless. Canes management should have been fined for incompetence for letting him go without lifting a finger. 

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rem, thanks as always for your eloquent discourse on " physicality" and its correlation with, to simplify if I may, "winning"? The moniker to which you reference, and one forever burned into my mind, is the one I'm sure long time fans will forever shutter at hearing, Candy Canes!!! You can analyze things for "grit", "toughness", "not backing down", "having an enforcer" or however one cares to pigeonhole it, but the fact remains that their are teams who we regularly play, who play a so called "heavy game", who ALWAYS seem to bottle us up in our defensive end, continually cycling until our D is gassed, and when so I always hold my breath knowing a goal is coming. Now, I'll not pretend to know how this element is analyzed, but I just wish we possessed a team to be the giver of this type of play, than routinely the receiver.

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38 minutes ago, raleighcaniac said:

Except He played on absolute crap Canes teams for many years. Hanging that stat on his play alone is meaningless. Canes management should have been fined for incompetence for letting him go without lifting a finger. 

Nothing they could do.  That donkey 🤡 JR handcuffed us with that damn NMC.

Skinner had all the chips in that deal.

Edited by AWACSooner

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5 hours ago, cc said:

One- why the attack? Two- a posters following of the game is not predicated by posting on this board. Chill out.

One- I could ask the same of you. Two, who died and made you mod?

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6 hours ago, gocanes0506 said:

Except that isn’t why Skinner isn’t on the roster at all.  Skinner scoring 30+ goals and still going minus 10 with all of his points being ES is why.  He is directly responsible for his minus rating.

 

Rod wants 200 foot players not play when you want its convenient to score players.

Revise history all you like. Skinner was told to pay a 200 foot game, did for two consecutive career years, and got buried on the third the season prior to his extension talks, specifically to lower his stats and make a (BS) case for not paying him.

 

But if spinning the facts makes you feel better, have at it.

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2 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Revise history all you like. Skinner was told to pay a 200 foot game, did for two consecutive career years, and got buried on the third the season prior to his extension talks, specifically to lower his stats and make a (BS) case for not paying him.

 

But if spinning the facts makes you feel better, have at it.

Yea the canes put him on the third line to kill his stats......suuuuurrreeeee

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2 hours ago, raleighcaniac said:

Except He played on absolute crap Canes teams for many years. Hanging that stat on his play alone is meaningless. Canes management should have been fined for incompetence for letting him go without lifting a finger. 

Except he is doing the same on the top line in Buffalo. He doesn’t play defense or even care about it.  
 

his version of defense is hoping to steal a puck from a defender in the O zone. When he doesn’t, he has put his team in a bind. When he does, he takes a bad shot 3 on 1.  

Edited by gocanes0506
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3 hours ago, remkin said:

I'm interested in how much physicality teams need to be good in today's NHL. Fighting is way down. It's fairly uncommon to see a real knock down drag out fight anymore. They still happen, but they are less and less. Big hits. Yes, there is no doubt that big hits can directly lead to dislodging the puck and even rushed clears leading to turnovers. BUT there are other ways to turn the puck over. I've noticed that we do a lot of stick play. One way to turnover the puck is a big hit. But to do that, the player needs to get much closer to the opponent and with some speed to make the hit which frequently takes the hitter way out of position, especially if the hit is missed. A player can reach, what, 8 feet in front of him with his stick and still stay in position. The puck, the thing we want, is after all, on the ice. 

 

Before I go on, let me say this. Hockey is a physical game. Hits and intimidation are part of it. I am not advocating playing it entirely like it's an All Star game. I'm talking about employing a predominantly physical game relative to the league. Is that important, or how important is it? OK...

 

The stats also suggest that we are more interested in takeaways than hits. We are #26 in the league in hits. BUT we are #4 in takeaways (games played adjusted). The other teams above and around us in take-aways? Vegas, Edmonton, Calgary, San Jose, Colorado, Nashville, Florida, and Washington. 

 

Teams leading the league in hits? Ottawa (#1). Pittsburgh, Vegas, Chicago, Montreal, Winnepeg. Then some good teams..

But the bottom of the league in hits includes Nashville, Calgary, NJD, Colorado, Florida, Carolina, Dallas, Arizona, Tampa. 

 

The point is that there isn't much correlation with hits and winning. There is for takeaways.

 

When Brind'Amour is asked about the physical and the chippy rough stuff, his answer is usually, "we won't back down", not "we're a physical team" or "we like to hit", or "that's a big part of our game". Yes, we said we needed more toughness two offseasons ago. But we really needed more mental toughness and a couple of key removals. We thought we needed the thump of Ferland, and for the first half, it really did seem that way. But then, we realized we didn't need him, as he was not much of a part of the post Christmas run or the playoffs.

 

The standard received wisdom is that you have to be physical to compete in the playoffs and to win the cup. Last year, St. Louis was #24 in the NHL in hits. OK, but in the playoffs? #9/16. Just below average. BTW Boston was #11 in hits in the playoffs. Again, can't back down, but going around hitting everyone? Nope. 

 

Washington was pretty physical the year before, but before that, Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Detroit won 7/10 Stanley Cups. A lot of people remember the big bad physical LA teams, but they were the exception. And at least one year they won it they barely even got into the playoffs. And they has a lot of scorers then too.

 

I'm not saying we can be the Candy Canes. There is definitely an element of sandpaper needed. We can't back down. And yes a disruptively physical player can create havoc, and teams seem to need at least one or two big, intimidating guys to keep the other team from taking too many liberties. But the fundamental game is speed and creating turnovers with that speed, as well as with the stick. The lion's share of the "physical" is that kind of non stop aggression. Getting sticks on pucks and sticks on passes is hugely more disruptive than a couple of big hits. BTW I see this in years and years of games when we don't do well also. Some see other teams physically taking it to us in our bad games, but for me, I know we're not bringing our A game more when our passes don't get through, and the other team's sticks seem to disrupt everything we're trying to do. 

 

So, yes, don't back down. But speed and stick skills and tenacious forechecking is our game. Luckily it's been a winning game for a lot of really good teams. Including us.

 

Rem I don't care for stats because almost every time this team faces a really physical team they lose due to endless puck cycling and losing along the boards.

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11 hours ago, bluedevil58 said:

I'm not saying we need Ferland but we need what he brought minus the IR debacle.  I have yet to see a forward land the hits that he is capable of landing.  I also don't really see anyone dropping the gloves.  There are a fee tikes but nobody is doing it on a consistent basis.

 

This team has a ton of skill.  But it is short by one physical 40 point forward.   Will things be different now that Martinook is back?  Maybe.  I will stand by my statement though.

 

I think this group is plenty tough when it needs to be.  The days of not sticking up for teammates is gone.  Dzingel even dropped the gloves sticking up for himself, lol.  They don't back off from scrums, and every game we are punching somebody down with a big hit, even the skill guys, just like every other team.  And with our skill and speed, it's working so far.

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