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NHL trade deadline talk (Feb. 24, 2020 at 3pm ET)

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14 minutes ago, Derailed75 said:

Wondering what you do when you find out Ned is not ready and Petr is in another sweater and back to form? 

Hes become kind of a whipping boy lately and while he hasnt been great he hasnt been bad. In fact he let up less goals in his last start (only one was his fault) then Riemer did in his last start (at least 3 were on Riems and one was an all time gaff).

 

You guys act like this team stinks and needs all kinds of help. The truth is we are 10th in the league in points (and on pace to match last years total) something that would normally get us in the playoffs but because of a crazy strong Met we are struggling to keep pace. 

 

Steady the ship and ride the tide, no rash trades dumping goalies in midst of a playoffs race to throw in an unproven AHL'er. Make maybe one or two moves if they help long term.

We are 4 points ahead of last season and it took us a 18-7-1 ride through the last 26 to get us in.  Do we think this team with this schedule goes 16-9-1 + down the stretch? Possible. Very unlikely though. Mrazek would have to turn it around and the defense would have to come together.  I don’t see Gardiner turning it around like Hamilton did.  
Slavin-Hamilton Pesce-Faulk CdH-TVR >>> Slavin-TVR Gardiner-Pesce Fleury-Edmundson 

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Come the trade deadline we will all have are answer  as to which direction they will be taking .   At this pace   the canes are doing amazing   but you do need goalies that can  steal  a couple of games for you ,   How many times  have we all come to this  forum to talk about  how so and so  stood on their head while our goalies didnt do  💩 ?

Edited by Canesfanforever

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29 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

We are 4 points ahead of last season and it took us a 18-7-1 ride through the last 26 to get us in.  Do we think this team with this schedule goes 16-9-1 + down the stretch? Possible. Very unlikely though. Mrazek would have to turn it around and the defense would have to come together.  I don’t see Gardiner turning it around like Hamilton did.  
Slavin-Hamilton Pesce-Faulk CdH-TVR >>> Slavin-TVR Gardiner-Pesce Fleury-Edmundson 

The other problem is since Dec 21, the team is 10-10-1.  It is a large enough body of work to show trends.  During that time there have been some really ugly, disappointing efforts.  Also, perhaps a few too many SO wins and fortunate recoveries.

 

In summary, where the team is going doesn't feel good.

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2 hours ago, wxray1 said:

The other problem is since Dec 21, the team is 10-10-1.  It is a large enough body of work to show trends.  During that time there have been some really ugly, disappointing efforts.  Also, perhaps a few too many SO wins and fortunate recoveries.

 

In summary, where the team is going doesn't feel good.

This is a very good point. The team is flagging recently. So does adding an outside player really change that dynamic enough?

 

There are 5 games before the deadline. If we don't crush those, I'm not giving up much at "crazy season" deadline. 

 

March is beyond brutal. Is it really even doable? From March 5 though March 31, a space of 27 days, we don't have more than one day off. Ever. But we do have 4 back to backs and all 4 are also part of a 3 games in 4 nights situation. We play Pittsburgh 4X, Boston 2X, in that stretch, then in Boston to close the year out. If we somehow survive that Gauntlet we get Tampa, Boston or Washington, probably. 

 

Look, I want to make the playoffs. Last year was great. I want more. But "no rentals" is my position. (except the one I keep making the exception for in goal). If we can make a hockey trade? Different story.

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3 hours ago, Derailed75 said:

Wondering what you do when you find out Ned is not ready and Petr is in another sweater and back to form? 

Hes become kind of a whipping boy lately and while he hasnt been great he hasnt been bad. In fact he let up less goals in his last start (only one was his fault) then Riemer did in his last start (at least 3 were on Riems and one was an all time gaff).

 

You guys act like this team stinks and needs all kinds of help. The truth is we are 10th in the league in points (and on pace to match last years total) something that would normally get us in the playoffs but because of a crazy strong Met we are struggling to keep pace. 

 

Steady the ship and ride the tide, no rash trades dumping goalies in midst of a playoffs race to throw in an unproven AHL'er. Make maybe one or two moves if they help long term.

The team absolutely does not stink, but being the 10th best team in the league is not a goal worth pursuing.  Making moves to try to insure the Canes are trending towards the top 3-5 teams in the league is the way management should approach the trade deadline.  Did the Canes draft Bean, Gauthier, Ned, Geekie, etc. for them to win Calder Cups?  I don't think so.  Are Nino, Petr, Gardiner, etc. going to lead the Canes to a Stanley Cup?  I don't think so.  There is only 1 winner at the end of the season, and that is the team that hoists the Cup.  Everybody else goes home.  I would not be saying this if I thought they could not only get into the post season but contend for the Cup, but that is not the case.  They get out hit every game out, out face offed in many.  They are not hoisting the Cup in 2020.

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4 hours ago, AWACSooner said:

Not good enough at this point.  We have to make some moves.  10th in the league isn’t worth a damn if we aren’t in the playoffs.  And it’s not like it’s going to get easier!

Actually it will get easier. Ovi, Cindy and the like are at the top or even just crested the dreaded hill while Aho and Svech have gotten better each year, neither are at their peak. Look around the East and name me another team with 2 players (possibly 3 if you count Necas) who are younger then 25, are that good, and are constantly getting better

Edited by Derailed75

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7 hours ago, Canesfanforever said:

Quick fixes 

 

Unload  Gardiner  . Mrazek ,  to free agency 

 

Call up   Ned  and Bean 

 

Trade  Mcginn   and Dzingle  for  a draft pick  and maybe a prospect 

Call up  ,  Gauthier   and  Geekie   

 

Fire the Goalie Coach and  give Cam Ward the Job NOW ! 

This is a marvelous plan, but I'm curious. Are you Cff proposing that it be done in the next few weeks before the trade deadline, the off season or exactly when? I you envision this prior to TD, IMHO, any 1 of these-- Gardiner, Mrazek, McGinn or Dzingel--- would likely be less than attractive to another team, so I don't know how any GM, even Rutherford, could accomplish them? Then, not the least of which is if a stroke of genius could accomplish this feat, again in the time frame prior to the TD, remember the attraction of fantasy, and who knows how they'd integrate with the NHLers at this critical juncture in the year. So, in summary Cff, I think your proposal would work in Fantasy Hockey.

Edited by KJUNKANE
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3 hours ago, KJUNKANE said:

This is a marvelous plan, but I'm curious. Are you Cff proposing that it be done in the next few weeks before the trade deadline, the off season or exactly when? I you envision this prior to TD, IMHO, any 1 of these-- Gardiner, Mrazek, McGinn or Dzingel--- would likely be less than attractive to another team, so I don't know how any GM, even Rutherford, could accomplish them? Then, not the least of which is if a stroke of genius could accomplish this feat, again in the time frame prior to the TD, remember the attraction of fantasy, and who knows how they'd integrate with the NHLers at this critical juncture in the year. So, in summary Cff, I think your proposal would work in Fantasy Hockey.

Fair enough .   The suggestion  was    a few days before the trade deadline .    In hindsight  there is some  grain of value for Dzingle    and Mcginn ,   however im  unlikely to see that in Mrazek and Gardiner  at the given moment .    That's why I thought Free agency would be best suited for them  since I can't think of any team wanting their services .   But if you have  better suggestions I'm all ears . 

Edited by Canesfanforever

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I do think it's fair in the big picture to think we got a bit ahead of ourselves last year. We also got a nice lane to the ECF when Tampa bowed out. Remember it was game 7 OT in Washington. It could have easily been a "very nice effort to get Washington to 7 in their first playoff appearance in 10 years" story. We also barely got in last year. This is not to diminish what we accomplished last year, but also not to look at it as a fair representation of whether that team represented the goal of being a, say top 5 team. Probably not really. Or least not sustainably. 

 

Still, while last year's team went on a very improbable run, this year's team is still better wire to wire so far. This year's team is showing some weaknesses, but the core team is maturing and getting better. But we are still at least a year from really hitting our stride though IMO, maybe two years. Right now, Tampa, Washington, Boston and Pittsburgh are at peak. If we're honest, we're in the next tier at the moment. But that's not bad. Think of where were were just a couple of seasons ago and 10 before that. (Not only middling, but no real clear path to getting better). 

 

We have one of the best paths to future glory of any team in the NHL. I was pretty proud of my future greatness index, but I guess no one "likes" posts that are longer than twitter sized. But the point remains when you look at 1. how good we are now, 2. how young our star core is, and should still improve: (Necas, Foegele, Svech (yes Svech will get even better), Fleury), and then 3. fold in our #3 in the NHL prospect pool and 4 picks in the first two rounds next year? This team is on the rise. In 1-2 years we will be in the top 5 dominant teams in the league IMO, and will be in position to stay there for a long time thereafter. 

 

But this year is a weird one. We are faltering in the D zone, at least half of or goalie starts are a bit shaky, we have a brutal conference and division, and March looms like an Iron Man race for a couch potato. I am NOT throwing in the towel. This team seems to rise to challenges. This team can beat anyone. Columbus, who has been white hot has taken a blow of Dougie proportions with Jones out, and then Atkinson. They could fall back leaving really Philly and Florida to beat out. 

 

I absolutely don't give up on this season and the playoffs. But I just don't trade assets for any rental except goalie, and that one would almost have to be Lehner and that would require Chicago to dive in it's last 5 games and feel out of it. And it would probably cost a lot even then and might not be worth it unless we could sign the guy.

 

OK so obviously we want to make the playoffs, but the committee needs to also keep it's eye on the medium term future because IMO that's where the longer term glory is. In fact, looking at our team/prospects, the biggest challenge in the medium/long term will be finding that goalie. 

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Tom Dundon had free agency pegged somewhat right and somewhat wrong. It's not that all free agents who hit the market weren't wanted by their original teams it's that the players who still aren't taken after a month have a reason why. Dzingle, Gardiner.....Ferland as the Nucks learned.

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Speculation going on because Vantanen isn’t at practice today and neither is Dzingel.

 

probably unrelated but the interwebs start drawing lines

Edited by gocanes0506
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Also on Sportsnet last night it was said that the Canes wanted Martinez. They made an offer to LA but they turned it down. LA wants futures but  Carolina didn’t want to move futures.

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1 hour ago, remkin said:

I was pretty proud of my future greatness index,

Let me chime in here rem, I very much liked the innovative element in it, but my head was just swimming attempting to comprehend its implications. Where I'm on the same page though is I think that you are right on in saying that (and I'll paraphrase) we all sort of jumped the gun in the conclusion that our next "logical" step might be SC finals? As you also point out, that was/is very easy to do, being mired in at best mediocrity for those woeful 10years. But the reality of our present situation is that this team's faults are apparently minute but frustratingly multifactorial? The latter is the key I would say to trading assets for a "rental", unless that particular asset might work out to be a longer term solution? 

 

Now saying that, hockey being what it is, always with an undeniable element of chance, one little tweak could magically turn the tide, and certainly the idea of Lehner you propose has the chance of "righting the ship", but this team does not feel like it has that tremendous finishing drive of the 18-19 team, so I am increasingly skeptical. In the end, I'm a Caniac and certainly as Jim Valvano stated in his stirring speech, DON'T GIVE UP, DON'T EVER GIVE UP. Amen

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8 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

Speculation going on because Vantanen isn’t at practice today and neither is Dzingel.

These are so FUN!! It does make sense. A puck moving RHD. Getting out of Dzingel's next year if we are ready to bail on him. Shakes up the team, and would allow us to bring Goat up. He's a rental, but we're not giving up futures. 

 

I kind of like it. 

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6 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

Also on Sportsnet last night it was said that the Canes wanted Martinez. They made an offer to LA but they turned it down. LA wants futures but  Carolina didn’t want to move futures.

M'boy TD. Careful with the futures. 

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24 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

Let me chime in here rem, I very much liked the innovative element in it, but my head was just swimming attempting to comprehend its implications. Where I'm on the same page though is I think that you are right on in saying that (and I'll paraphrase) we all sort of jumped the gun in the conclusion that our next "logical" step might be SC finals? As you also point out, that was/is very easy to do, being mired in at best mediocrity for those woeful 10years. But the reality of our present situation is that this team's faults are apparently minute but frustratingly multifactorial? The latter is the key I would say to trading assets for a "rental", unless that particular asset might work out to be a longer term solution? 

 

Now saying that, hockey being what it is, always with an undeniable element of chance, one little tweak could magically turn the tide, and certainly the idea of Lehner you propose has the chance of "righting the ship", but this team does not feel like it has that tremendous finishing drive of the 18-19 team, so I am increasingly skeptical. In the end, I'm a Caniac and certainly as Jim Valvano stated in his stirring speech, DON'T GIVE UP, DON'T EVER GIVE UP. Amen

Thanks for replying Kjun. Sometimes it seems like no one is reading those. 

 

I do tend to merge ideas, and that latest post includes the "future greatness index" as one point. The main idea is in a different post. But I got to thinking of team "trajectories". One would have to think that Pittsburgh, Washington, St Louis even, and other current powerhouses, are getting close to their shelf life expiration. They have traded picks to win now, riding the likes of Crosby and Ovechkin. Their farms are thin. When they finally go down? See Detroit. Then there are teams that have bottomed out, but have been building an impressive stable of future talent. LA, MTL, Ottawa, Detroit, arguably NJ. But what about teams that are both good, and have a deep farm? I think of Tampa as historically the example of this. Seems like they always have seriously good players coming up even as they're good. 

 

So looking out a few years it seems a decent predictor of future success would be a combination of 1. How good are you now? 2. How young are you now? 3. How good is your farm system. Very few teams can say 1. Pretty good. 2. Pretty young 3. Very good. We can say all three.

 

My main point is, I guess, that this team has become good, but Francis' plan was not to become good. His plan was to be a dominant team for at least a decade. That's the Pittsburgh, Chicago, Washington, Tampa's of the world, in a top 5 position to win a cup just about every year. We are good, but we want a shot at consistently very good or even great. 

 

It is easy to see this team moving into that range as key players improve or hold in their peak years, and new talent fills in. Aho and TT should continue. Slavin and Hamilton should continue. Svech will get BETTER (this is a potential 100 point guy). Necas will get much better. He's a rookie. I would not count out Foegele to push 20 goals next season. Then there is the immediate future: Bean, Gauthier and possibly Geekie or Ned IMO. Then there is the medium term future Suzuki, Drury, Rees, Pistola, Priskie (could be sooner), Honka, maybe Kochetkov in goal. (at least a couple of them), then there's our picks from this up coming draft going even further out. 

 

It's easy to see us melding our high end farm into our young high end talented team and forming into that next level in the next couple of years.

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I can't really see the Canes being sellers for a couple of reasons.  Unless the team goes in the tank, they are going to be right there in the mix.  I don't see how you sell to the room and the fanbase that you are giving up.  This isn't a case where in the past where JR's indecision on buying/selling left us in the middle.  The year Ruutu and Gleason were signed to extensions was a time he could have possible nabbed a couple of first rounders.  Who on this year's team is going to be traded for a good return?  You would really want to throw in the towel to get a couple of 3rd rounders?

 

Canes (once again) need a goalie and defensive help.  At least see if there is any improvement to be made by elevating a couple of Checkers.  I have no problems with them using assets (futures) to make a push as long as it makes sense.  Why have all these arrows in the quiver if you are never going to use one?  I think the time to do it is now though, and have time for the additional help to push the team up the standings a bit.  Teams around us are going to make moves. 

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Thinking more on the idea of Dzingel for Vantanen. I haven't paid a lot of attention to Vantanen but he seems like a guy who could fill a need. He can run a PP, and he's a RHD to replace Hamilton. From the "rental" point of view, this is one case where the acquisition of a rental make sense on our end: we need a guy for this season because next season Hamilton is back and we really can't pay a guy big bucks unless we trade another D. This is simple. Get Vantanen now, let him go next season to the crazy UFA price system, get Dougie back. 

 

The problem would be price. We don't want to give up a second rounder or higher for a rental. If the team has decided that Dzingel is not fitting in or part of the future though, moving him out could work, especially now that we have J Williams back, and especially if we are thinking about giving Goat a shot. Dzingel has been OK at getting assists, but this was supposed to be a sniper and that has not even close to happened.

 

This would not be throwing in the towel on this year's team because it's a player for a player swap. But it could shake things up a bit in a good way. Vantanen is listed as a legit top 4 D that can really move the puck. And Dzingel has 8 goals.

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1 hour ago, remkin said:

. . .

 

It is easy to see this team moving into that range as key players improve or hold in their peak years, and new talent fills in. Aho and TT should continue. Slavin and Hamilton should continue. Svech will get BETTER (this is a potential 100 point guy). Necas will get much better. He's a rookie. I would not count out Foegele to push 20 goals next season. Then there is the immediate future: Bean, Gauthier and possibly Geekie or Ned IMO. Then there is the medium term future Suzuki, Drury, Rees, Pistola, Priskie (could be sooner), Honka, maybe Kochetkov in goal. (at least a couple of them), then there's our picks from this up coming draft going even further out. 

 

It's easy to see us melding our high end farm into our young high end talented team and forming into that next level in the next couple of years.

 

To me a key will be how well the Committee actually does this.  Not so sure it will be "easy" as it will likely require a degree of faith in order to actually implement.  I wonder if the Committee currently may be a tad "risk averse" when it comes to giving our prospects a chance?  It does seem like a tricky thing to navigate while we're still a borderline playoff team.  Maybe as we get better it gets easier to provide a spot for promising but as yet unproven talent.  

 

On that front, I wonder who on the Committee has the most influence when it comes to utilizing prospects?  Gotta believe that if not Rod, he at does have more influence than the coach in many other organizations.  I just hope that as an organization we don't err by being systematically overly cautious in a way similar to how I believe RF was overly hesitant to trading any futures for immediate help.  

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2 hours ago, remkin said:

Thinking more on the idea of Dzingel for Vantanen. I haven't paid a lot of attention to Vantanen but he seems like a guy who could fill a need. He can run a PP, and he's a RHD to replace Hamilton. From the "rental" point of view, this is one case where the acquisition of a rental make sense on our end: we need a guy for this season because next season Hamilton is back and we really can't pay a guy big bucks unless we trade another D. This is simple. Get Vantanen now, let him go next season to the crazy UFA price system, get Dougie back. 

 

The problem would be price. We don't want to give up a second rounder or higher for a rental. If the team has decided that Dzingel is not fitting in or part of the future though, moving him out could work, especially now that we have J Williams back, and especially if we are thinking about giving Goat a shot. Dzingel has been OK at getting assists, but this was supposed to be a sniper and that has not even close to happened.

 

This would not be throwing in the towel on this year's team because it's a player for a player swap. But it could shake things up a bit in a good way. Vantanen is listed as a legit top 4 D that can really move the puck. And Dzingel has 8 goals.

This is good REM. I like this suggestion.

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What does it take to give Priskie a look, and healthy scratch a bottom pair left handed guy like Fleury or Gardiner, or even give Slavin or Pesce a game off if we can afford to lose them. Priskie can PLAY, currently the second points leader for Checkers D. I'm really surprised he hasn't played an NHL game yet for us (he hasn't right?) especially since Dougie went down. Well, now we're about a week and a half away from the deadline so it might be too late to test this out vs. trading for RHD.

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4 hours ago, gocanes0506 said:

Rod said Dzingel needed a day, a little dinged up. Just speculation as expected 

It is always fun though. When one guy gets pulled from practice while trade rumors are swelling, let alone two guys, let alone two guys who realistically could be involved in a trade for each other.

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