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Covid 19 virus inpacts sports, NHL,Season Tix other impacts

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Welp, I am not a doctor or any kind of scientific expert, but I can tell you that just because some government entity decides businesses can open again, it doesn’t mean the people will necessarily come.

I know I sure won’t subject myself to close quarters with a bunch of other folks until I can feel comfortable that I won’t get seriously ill from doing so – there’s no restaurant meal, concert, or sporting event experience I want badly enough to risk that. I know several folks my age (mid-50s), both with and without risk factors who were scarily, miserably ill with this thing. None required hospitalization but all experienced about a week of moderate illness followed by a day or two of feeling better only to relapse into being much worse, including vomiting, extreme weakness (being too weak to stand at times) and coughing up blood. I do not want to spend 2-3 weeks of my life wondering if I’ll get better or get worse enough to need someone to call 911 for me. On the flip side I’d also very much like to avoid being an asymptomatic carrier that could cause someone else to be in that boat or worse – and it is beginning to sound like there’s no small measure of those folks around too.

Thing is, sports like professional hockey rely on people like me to put our butts in seats – us older folks have the disposable cash to do that. If we aren’t feeling like we are safe doing that, it doesn’t matter who opens what when. The money isn’t going to show up.

I think financially it’s going to take longer and be more complicated than just saying it’s OK that nonessential businesses can open again. We're going to need to see an effective vaccine or treatment, or real numbers showing that the risk is now very small. We're not close to any of that. 

I’m going to wait for more answers and I am sure I am not the only one.

That said, I have very much appreciated reading everyone’s posts in this thread. Between this and the people I work with and serve (I work for a public-health related entity) I have learned way more about this than I ever could have reading news items in lay media. I'm not happy about where we are right now but I do know that will change. 

Edited by romansperson
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Thanks for the post romansperson. You make excellent points. When they end up putting down the numbers by age and certain other risk factors I think it will be apparent that while the overall death rate is going to be at or below what I predicted way back near the start of this thread, it is going not going to be a minuscule risk for all age groups and medical problem groups. There is no question that the older the riskier, and the more one has certain medical problems (particularly hypertension, cardiac disease, diabetes, obesity) the more the risk. 

 

IMO the science bears out that the risk to very healthy people under 35 (especially under 30) is indeed very small, the risk for a 70 overweight, diabetic hypertensive with a previous MI is anything but miniscule. In fact, that the death rate will be so low is because the young healthy people pull the rate down. Thus, mathematically, the death rate grows with age and the wrong comorbidities. So, while covid is probably safer than flu for a healthy 16 year old, Covid is substantially more dangerous than flu for a 68 year old with cardiovascular disease. I suspect the numbers will bear out that the difference is massive in relative terms. 

 

So, IMO again, for a healthy 25 year old hockey player? Very small risk. This is the basis along with an extensive testing regime to limit exposure, for my thinking, playing games in empty arenas can and will be done. This is dramatically different though from restarting regular games with fans. That, will be one of the very last things to come back. 

 

I think we must and will open society back up. But that is a totally different question precisely because of the heterogeneity of the general population vs hockey professionals. I totally get the concern, and agree that particularly older people and or those with health issues might and often should be more cautious about getting back into more public spaces. And the older and more vulnerable one is, the more one should continue to lock down. That will naturally be part of the way it works out as younger people will probably be the first movers on going back to restaurants etc. But even then, people will distance, wear masks, etc. And I don't expect concerts or sporting events to resume with fans in attendance until the very last phase, likely when we are at least approaching herd immunity, or get an effective vaccine. 

 

I am 57. I took care of two people with Covid today. I have a PA that probably has it but is still working and presenting patient's cases to me because she has no cough or fever. I completely get that even if one doesn't get the full on "cytokine storm" that getting this can be miserable, and scary indeed, and I don't want to get it either. I'll go back slow too.  

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BTW the case of my PA is interesting. She had complete loss of smell and most loss of taste. This is not from congestion, as she had almost no congestion. Further she's had seasonal allergies and colds and even then can at least smell a little and this was completely different. To be a bit blunt, she could not smell her dog's sculpture from a foot away. So how do I know this is covid? Well, besides the incredibly odd and specific symptom of lack of smell. Her husband worked at Neuse Correctional and was Covid positive and had full symptoms including coughing all over the place while she cared for him.

 

But while he had a flu like illness and was miserable. She has had no symptoms besides the lack of smell, and even that is resolving. She never got tested. In about 2 weeks she'll get the antibody test. I'll let you know, but I'd bet a lot that it will be positive and she'll not have missed a day of work.

 

And there are lots of other people like her out there. Continuing to work. They are at Costco's and Harris Teeter and the ABC store and lots of places we are all still going. 

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3 hours ago, remkin said:

So, IMO again, for a healthy 25 year old hockey player? Very small risk. This is the basis along with an extensive testing regime to limit exposure, for my thinking, playing games in empty arenas can and will be done. 

Yes, I get this. And I think that's fine, if the league considers things carefully and decides it's safe to have games - just remember not everyone involved in the playing of games is 25 and robustly healthy. Coaches, maintenance and supply and other support people may not be, and players can't play without those people.

 

That's also not going to bring back full revenue, which is so tied up with all this. Yes, they'll get TV money again (and TV crews are another group that have to work on these things). My husband is a multi-sport fan and he'd be delighted to have something, anything to watch again! But no fans in seats means local arenas get nothing. There's no ticket revenue, no food and beverage revenue, no people coming in from out of town and spending at hotels and restaurants. This is all going to be a really hard nut to crack. 

 

I'm sorry your PA and her husband were sick. I hope they were able to isolate. I know there are a lot of folks out there who probably didn't or couldn't. Which just makes things harder for us older folk. I do hope she'll be able to donate plasma, though, if she does end up positive. Amazing that we have to resort to a 100-year-old treatment method right now, but it's better than nothing I guess. 

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I've been listening to XM every morning while working on a long project, and every day there are snippets of rumors.  Over the last week we've progressed like this:

- 4 arenas to finish the season, including Raleigh!

- Scratch Raleigh, their practice facility sucks.

- Oh, look at the NFL, they are adjusting their schedule!

- We can too, maybe.  Maybe things will start (empty arenas, maybe more than four) around mid June after the logistics of getting everyone back are worked out

- Finish the season, then do the playoffs.  Again, some arenas may not be available due to local restrictions.  Doesn't matter, no fans.

- 19-20 season, including playoffs, ends by Sept 30.

- 2 month break, then season starts Dec 1, with high compression.  20-21 season ends by July 31.

 

Then this morning the latest is... Whoa there on those rumors!  Heart patients are dying in Toronto because just about all surgeries consider elective (which is surprisingly wide) are stopped.   We gotta get the hospitals back first.  All you talking about Sports go to the back of the line!  Don't worry about hockey.

 

I'm paraphrasing what was said.   In a nutshell, it is all rumor.  What is coming out of it is this:

- The NHL really wants to try to get the season finished along with playoffs to make a complete, real season.  Whether that happens or not is unknown.

- It is unknown because the start date is unknown.  As the elective surgery thing sends home, focus on other things is going to happen first.

- They want next season to happen in total, and they are prepared to make significant schedule changes.

- Don't rule out things like radical schedule changes... like not intra-conference play.

- There's a realization disruption will likely be multi-year.

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On 4/29/2020 at 9:16 PM, romansperson said:

Yes, I get this. And I think that's fine, if the league considers things carefully and decides it's safe to have games - just remember not everyone involved in the playing of games is 25 and robustly healthy. Coaches, maintenance and supply and other support people may not be, and players can't play without those people.

 

That's also not going to bring back full revenue, which is so tied up with all this. Yes, they'll get TV money again (and TV crews are another group that have to work on these things). My husband is a multi-sport fan and he'd be delighted to have something, anything to watch again! But no fans in seats means local arenas get nothing. There's no ticket revenue, no food and beverage revenue, no people coming in from out of town and spending at hotels and restaurants. This is all going to be a really hard nut to crack. 

 

No doubt the coaches and especially other staff are at higher risk. The coaches though, could wear n95 masks, and even other PPE. Maybe hook up some sort of microphone and speaker so the players can hear them. But again, the players will be the most tested people on Earth with serial negative tests. There was talk about announcers calling the game from a remote site. That seems unnecessary to me, but possibly the play by play guy and color guy in different booths. At this point they'd just need one neutral set of announcers. 

 

Other personnel could also wear a robust set of PPE, maybe even N100 respirators that let nothing but air in. But I can tell you that, especially if they go with the full NHL arenas, that the risk to a guy driving the zamboni is pretty close to zero even without PPE. But this is where I stop and realize that our understandable zeal for safety goes off the common sense rails. That Zamboni driver, is socially distanced by about 100 yards and several walls from players in their dressing rooms, and about 50 feet from the nearest person on the ice and is basically outside in a massive, empty arena. That same guy has a much much higher risk at Costco's or the local grocery store. Let alone once states start opening up, which is happening now and will be probably complete by then. Plus their risk is from other workers, not the players who have been tested up and down. Even people shoveling ice can wear masks and stay 6 feet apart.

 

The risk will, IMO be places where people congregate off ice. But really, the locker room is the only one that could break tricky at that. Still, players can wear N95 masks in the locker rooms, and shower in shifts, or even shower at home. Outside the box thinking is needed. 

 

But outside the box thinking is also what could make this relatively interesting. Presenting the games in a made for TV format for instance with features that take advantage of that focus. Another thing could be just taking 16 playoff teams and ranking them 1-16. The whole East - West thing is largely about travel anyways. Things like that. 

 

My prediction was based on where I thought things would be, not where they were at the time, or even are now. And indeed states are opening and people are starting to rise up against lockdowns that are going on too long. Even in NC, which is slated to open things to a new phase in one week, there is a protest today. So as states open up and people are going back to some sort of life, a lot of the concerns on this thing will lessen IMO. 

 

BTW when I look at articles online about this, the comment sections seem to favor not doing this, and just focus on next season by at least 4/5. So, I seem to be in the minority on this. I completely understand that reasonable people disagree on this thing.

 

But as always, we shall see. 

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25 minutes ago, remkin said:

No doubt the coaches and especially other staff are at higher risk. The coaches though, could wear n95 masks, and even other PPE. Maybe hook up some sort of microphone and speaker so the players can hear them. But again, the players will be the most tested people on Earth with serial negative tests. There was talk about announcers calling the game from a remote site. That seems unnecessary to me, but possibly the play by play guy and color guy in different booths. At this point they'd just need one neutral set of announcers. 

 

Other personnel could also wear a robust set of PPE, maybe even N100 respirators that let nothing but air in. But I can tell you that, especially if they go with the full NHL arenas, that the risk to a guy driving the zamboni is pretty close to zero even without PPE. But this is where I stop and realize that our understandable zeal for safety goes off the common sense rails. That Zamboni driver, is socially distanced by about 100 yards and several walls from players in their dressing rooms, and about 50 feet from the nearest person on the ice and is basically outside in a massive, empty arena. That same guy has a much much higher risk at Costco's or the local grocery store. Let alone once states start opening up, which is happening now and will be probably complete by then. Plus their risk is from other workers, not the players who have been tested up and down. Even people shoveling ice can wear masks and stay 6 feet apart.

 

The risk will, IMO be places where people congregate off ice. But really, the locker room is the only one that could break tricky at that. Still, players can wear N95 masks in the locker rooms, and shower in shifts, or even shower at home. Outside the box thinking is needed. 

 

But outside the box thinking is also what could make this relatively interesting. Presenting the games in a made for TV format for instance with features that take advantage of that focus. Another thing could be just taking 16 playoff teams and ranking them 1-16. The whole East - West thing is largely about travel anyways. Things like that. 

 

My prediction was based on where I thought things would be, not where they were at the time, or even are now. And indeed states are opening and people are starting to rise up against lockdowns that are going on too long. Even in NC, which is slated to open things to a new phase in one week, there is a protest today. So as states open up and people are going back to some sort of life, a lot of the concerns on this thing will lessen IMO. 

 

BTW when I look at articles online about this, the comment sections seem to favor not doing this, and just focus on next season by at least 4/5. So, I seem to be in the minority on this. I completely understand that reasonable people disagree on this thing.

 

But as always, we shall see. 

 

If they start up again players would be together unprotected on the ice and on the bench, so why worry about them being together in the locker room or showers?  

 

But I do think there would need to be some novel, perhaps outside the box procedures implemented.  E.g., let's face it, while treating covid-19 with disinfectants or light was an outright stupid thing to suggest, I wonder if they could use UV light or some type of disinfectant mist to frequently and thoroughly disinfect areas like locker rooms, showers, and benches?  

 

Which raises a question in my mind: I wonder if there's currently much of an effort on advancing technology to make mass disinfection cheap, thorough, and easy?  

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On 4/27/2020 at 5:06 PM, remkin said:

If you think anyone who's making these play or no play, open up the society or not decisions is reading my opinions to make those decisions on here you can feel safe in knowing that they're certainly not.

Rem, I understand why you'd feel that way, because back in the day it was true. But today, thanks to social media, anyone who says they have some credential is being held out by at least some people as "an expert," and fueling what are often those peoples' extremely bad decisions. With credentials come responsibility, and despite this disclaimer...

On 4/28/2020 at 2:01 PM, remkin said:

No one is going to live or die based on anything any of us write on here. 

...others are listening to you. I know you think your scribblings here are only an opinion, but what matters is not how you see them, but how others do. And when your comments are couched in "the experience" of your day job, they can absolutely persuade some people that this thing is not as serious as the experts say.

 

Less than a week ago you wrote, "The patients never showed up." Well, yesterday saw NC's highest reported number of new laboratory-confirmed infections, and the number is still climbing--exactly as the experts said it would. And we are still not testing enough people to get a full picture of the spread: Of the total tests performed in NC, 8 percent have been positive, a number far higher than is being reported in regions with higher tests-performed-to-confirmed-cases ratios.

 

The known facts around this pandemic are scary, but what we still don't know is scarier still. Anyone who believes we already know enough to resume business as usual is not only fooling him or herself, but is advocating for something that has an even-money chance of putting themselves and those they love at grave risk.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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The more we test, the more cases we'll find. It's not a brilliant point, but I did predict it. And the new cases we find from more testing will be minor cases (since we've been testing the sickest people at nearly 100% for a long time now) further sending the true case fatality rate pretty close to my initial predictions. Again, despite ignoring this over and over in posts, the fundamental issue short of a vaccine is not outstripping the medical capacity. That was the stated reason for the lockdowns, not keeping anyone from getting this. On that I've been more correct than many experts by a lot, and continue to be, and I think will be. My vantage on that is on the ground directly in the line of fire in the highest density covid county in the state. The vast numbers of intubated patients is what I said aren't coming. And they aren't. 

 

If we could eradicate the disease by locking down, that would be different. But if we could, then how are the cases still going up after weeks of lockdown?  The disease is still spreading. 

 

There may be an uptick with opening. If not then the lockdown was even less effective. But it there is, it will not outstrip capacity of the system to care for the sick. And that was the point. 

 

Here's irony. The WHO is now saying that Sweden is the model that most countries should follow. Those who want to follow the experts find themselves in an odd spot. Following the World's experts now means abandoning the tight lockdown mode in favor of one of the most open models on Earth. 

 

Top, I'm not responding to your unqualified sly attempts to disqualify my opinions. I'm not planning on having a continuing debate with you. People have made it clear that they don't want to read it. Post your opinions so long as you stop attacking personally and don't get political, and I'll post mine. 

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NC is finally, finally getting testing ramped up, and are rightly mass testing congregate facilities like prisons and group living facilities.   And we're seeing what was feared, a lot of cases in those close-quarter facilities.

 

I'm following what our government is following: the trend of positive tests versus total tests.  This key metric has finally flattened and may be downtrending.  Read it for yourself:

https://www.ncdhhs.gov/divisions/public-health/covid19/covid-19-nc-case-count

 

Quote

Is North Carolina seeing a 14-day downward trajectory of positive tests as a percentage of total tests?

As we ramp up testing, there will be more laboratory-confirmed cases. Looking at what percent of total tests are positive helps us understand whether laboratory-confirmed cases are increasing in comparison to the number of tests conducted. 

To calculate this, North Carolina uses positive tests and total test numbers from labs that reported both positive and negative tests electronically into the NC Electronic Disease Surveillance System (NC EDSS). This ensures that the positive and total tests were conducted on the same day to calculate a more accurate daily percent positive. 
Limitation: While most labs report negative results, we do not get this data from all labs. The labs used in the percent positive calculation represent the majority of total tests reported to the state. 

Positive Tests as a Percent of Total Cases

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

yesterday saw NC's highest reported number of new laboratory-confirmed infections, and the number is still climbing

The testing has increased so you would expect positive results will too.  No revelation here.

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38 minutes ago, remkin said:

Here's irony. The WHO is now saying that Sweden is the model that most countries should follow. Those who want to follow the experts find themselves in an odd spot. Following the World's experts now means abandoning the tight lockdown mode in favor of one of the most open models on Earth. 

 

Hi rem, and thanks for the plug for testing, as that is what I've contended in like forever since this thing emerged. Of course that's what my profession is based upon. Saying that though, I doubt the average man/woman in general, and I know that many physicians seem not to realize(thus how can the general population be expected) the efforts of QUALITY CONTROL that laboratorians breath, eat and sleep  to assure quality work. Hearing for instance that plans are underfoot to allow "giant pharmacies" to undertake antibody testing sent shivers thru me, UNLESS they bring on board qualified laboratorians to oversee, thus to assure reproducible, quality work. Too often, I've observed physician offices swayed by skillful salesmen concerning POC (point of care) tests, with their spiel that their product is xyz% sensitive and xyz% accurate. Never mind that those figures have been rigidly controlled, and this has to be similarly done to get them? One doesn't just plug the test into their super duper machine and VOILA theres your unquestionable, unassailable answer? Anyway, enough of my soapbox, but you see where this is going, unqualified or barely qualified people conducting unvalidated tests certainly will not result in better understanding of SARS-CoV-2?

 

As to Sweden's approach, I ask you why not follow it because we've seen amply demonstrated in numerous locales about this country as well as this state, that our citizens will not allow their "unassailable right" of personal choice be challenged, even if it benefits our society? Demonstrations throughout this country, public flaunting of decrees to self-isolate like beach gatherings, etc are examples that fly in the face of medical opinion, so why not just open the whole thing up, spend all the funny money being printed as economic stimulus and lets attain rapid "herd immunity" while the refrigerated trucks accommodate those either lacking immunity or at the opposite end of the spectrum, that have overactive immunity? As David Farragut so famously phrased it, "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead"? 

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I'm not really saying Sweden was right, I just find it ironic that the people most likely to say we must obey the WHO experts also tend to be the people who tend to favor strict lockdowns and that it must put them in a tough spot given that WHO now says, follow Sweden 

 

But TBH so far I think NC's overall government approach has been pretty good. It is looking at the right things IMO. The problem is that the data they list is a week old, and with the massive ramp up in testing, a week is important when it comes to new cases. Still, hospitalizations in NC have held steady. Some of that is because hospitalizations lag as people tend to stay in the hospital 1-2 weeks, but it is a meaningful metric in terms of making sure that capacity is not exceeded.

 

IMO another week of lockdown here is not unreasonable. I'm guessing that by then some things can be opened with very little chance that any surge will come close to exceeding capacity. 

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Kjun, I'd be curious about the sensitivity and specificity of the test we are now running. Oddly, that information is not easily provided to us by the lab. I guess I should call them.

 

But I can tell you that the ability to test has ramped up exponentially. Initially tests were very limited in quantity and had to be approved through UNC. I could only test very sick AND contact with covid or travel to or from China. Then other places were added and only the admissions, etc. Further the turnaround time was about 5 days, down to 3 days, down to 2, then 24hours. Available hospital tests went from 20 total, to now over 900. And starting yesterday I can now order a Covid test that I get back in 45 minutes like a regular lab. 

 

It should not be surprising that we are going to see an increase in "confirmed" cases. (In fact, early on it took 2 different positive tests to "confirm"). 

 

Here's a question for you or anyone who has the data? How long after a know exposure does it take for the test to turn consistently positive?

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2 hours ago, wxray1 said:

NC is finally, finally getting testing ramped up, and are rightly mass testing congregate facilities like prisons and group living facilities.   And we're seeing what was feared, a lot of cases in those close-quarter facilities.

 

I'm following what our government is following: the trend of positive tests versus total tests.  This key metric has finally flattened and may be downtrending.  Read it for yourself:

https://www.ncdhhs.gov/divisions/public-health/covid19/covid-19-nc-case-count

 

I saw that graph too wxray. The thing too is that testing has ramped up just recently. It will take at least a week to really set the trend. The state is using a trailing 14 days, but if you take the line down from 4/17 on, as testing has increased the trend is forming pretty clearly.

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34 minutes ago, remkin said:

Here's a question for you or anyone who has the data? How long after a know exposure does it take for the test to turn consistently positive?

Very good question rem, and as a disclaimer right off the bat, I don't personally know as to me there are as yet to be understood 'variables". This is what I think.

 

1st, the expertise of those administering tests for "viral recovery" comes into question, namely the nasopharyngeal vs oropharygeal swab, as the former CAN be tricky. Then there is now evidence of better recovery of virus from a sputum or oral gargle, but I think there's some discussion of the virus progressively moving more distant in the respiratory tract as the infection progresses, and if that's proven true, then it would seem that recovery of it would depend at which stage of the disease the patient presenting is in?

 

The next consideration I'd suggest in regards to "known exposure", as you are aware, relates to viral shedding and the number of virions necessary to cause a disease? If for instance, the contact is with an infected person shedding very little of this virus, then that would reduce the chance that the exposed person would become ill? If on the other hand this virus is highly contagious, like Hep C for instance, than very few viral particles are necessary for disease to commence? It's being said that SARS-CoV-2 is "highly infectious", thus I'm supposing that the "viral load" must be on the smaller side to result in disease?

 

Then, not only are characteristics of virus influential in "infection", but those of the "host" also affect whether disease occurs, thus affecting testing results?

 

Finally, by "the test", the above discussion presumed you were asking about RT-PCR test, thus not antibody, because antibody testing involves blood sampling, with its own set of unknowns? An equally perplexing question I had posed me from a friend who owns/runs a local restaurant that apparently she has been unable to have answered (and local health departments are to be in charge of contact notification??), but how long after suffering this disease are people infectious, i.e. When is it safe for an infected, recovered individual to resume work? The question this involves to me is, Is the viral particle being shed in the recovered person infectious?

 

All of these questions, with answers, hopefully will be better understood as there's more experience with this coronavirus, but as you have frequently communicated in your discussions, even the so-called experts can err. A humbling experience no doubt, but eventually we learn.     

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Some of the testing makes me nervous - primarily the emerging antibody tests.  Anyone read about the Elizabeth Holmes and her company Theranos  ?  It was a great story -- until it wasn't.   In short, she said she had a way to do all kinds of tests with just a drop of blood versus the vials need by the competitors.  It was a fake, and she is currently going through some serious legal processes.

 

Reading about some of these tests, and the fact that the FDA has waived any scrutiny has me a bit nervous.  The field has a checkered history, and there is room for some bad actors to get involved.  Hopefully not this time...

Edited by wxray1

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From the perspective of managing the disease / restrictions, I don't see total infections as the primary metric we should be considering right now.  I'm more interested in serious cases (deaths and hospitalizations) and the effect that easing mitigation will have on serious cases.   

 

Extreme (and unrealistic) examples to illustrate the point.  We ease restrictions and:

  1. the infection rate skyrockets, but none of the cases are serious. That could actually be a good thing (herd immunity).  
  2. the infection rate is relatively low, but all of the cases are deaths. Not so good. 

 

One other nit I'll pick; there's not enough distinction between raw numbers and rates in much of the reporting.  How meaningful is, say, a comparison of how many tests South Korea has administered compared to the US if you don't factor in relative populations?  And same with total deaths.

 

edit: I do recognize that there is likely a high correlation between overall infection rates and serious cases.  But I see us as much more accurately tracking serious cases than estimating overall infection rates, especially given the difficulties with testing the larger population.

Edited by LakeLivin

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Does anyone else find it interesting for lack of a better term that state governors appear to unilaterally be removing our rights.  They are not above the bill of rights and have no power to make law by executive decree . Are you ok with this?  This is just a question. Not attacking anyone or picking a side here. 

 

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57 minutes ago, cc said:

Does anyone else find it interesting for lack of a better term that state governors appear to unilaterally be removing our rights.  They are not above the bill of rights and have no power to make law by executive decree . Are you ok with this?  This is just a question. Not attacking anyone or picking a side here. 

 

 

I think what's happening fits under temporary emergency powers; as far as I'm aware, no governors are making new laws.

 

One may disagree about the actions governors are taking, but I don't think you'll find many who disagree that the pandemic is an emergency.  If you're concerned about executive overreach and abuse of power I think you're looking in the wrong place.  I'd start with the money Congress authorized for the military that was diverted to pay for a border wall. There are other examples, but going there definitely gets us into politics.  

Edited by LakeLivin

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I don’t necessarily disagree. But who defines how far the powers extend and for how long? It’s really unprecedented. This is more of a philosophical not a political question in my mind. 

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14 minutes ago, cc said:

I don’t necessarily disagree. But who defines how far the powers extend and for how long? It’s really unprecedented. This is more of a philosophical not a political question in my mind. 

 

Unprecedented at least for the last century.  I'm not well enough steeped in history to know what happened during the Spanish flu 100 years ago, but I believe there were quarantines imposed. I guess the obvious answer is that the emergency powers extend as long as the emergency exists, but that leads to another philosophical question: what defines an emergency?

 

One can think about the question from a philosophical perspective but unfortunately, given how bifurcated our country has become, I don't see it not becoming political in practice.  I mean, our president was tweeting "liberate certain states" at the same time those states were acting under the guidance put forward by his administration. 

 

For years I've had the opinion that hyper-partisanship is the biggest threat to our country, and while the US has initially more or less come together during this pandemic, I'm wondering how long that will last.  

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Well I choose not to bring in the entities involved but think of the overall process.  Also to refer only to the scope of the current event and not previous fractious divides.  Today’s world can hardly be compared to the society of 100 years ago. People were different then and relatively more disposed to follow their leadership with less justification. I believe that the force of the people’s will has been stretched beyond what they are willing to tolerate. The next few weeks will bear that out. IMO  We will see soon enough . 

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6 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

... I guess the obvious answer is that the emergency powers extend as long as the emergency exists, but that leads to another philosophical question: what defines an emergency?

 

Hopefully future tyrants have not learned a lesson at how easily the populace gave up their most cherished freedoms, either completely or in a limited way, with this so-called “invisible enemy”, the right to assemble, the right to free speech, the right to vote, the right to bear arms, the right to practice religion, the right to hockey... After this, it is not difficult to imagine—is it?—a future ‘public health’ or similar crisis, real or created, leading to totalitarianism here or in other western democracies.  Patriots beware!

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