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Covid 19 virus inpacts sports, NHL,Season Tix other impacts

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1 hour ago, remkin said:

I am assuming that support staff will wear at least N95 masks. It's very hard to yell to the ice with one, but the coaches should be able to wear one and communicate to the players on the bench in an empty stadium. We have had shortages of these masks at our hospital until recently. (In what is really one of the biggest fails of this entire thing. Not having enough N95's for health care provider to be able to wear one into every room is a travesty. The stock was allowed to draw down in a major fail).  But in this case our providers in our ED wear surgical masks and eyewear and gloves into every single room of every patient. We wear N95 masks into high risk rooms, but frankly you never know for sure who has it. So far, knock on wood, no provider out of around 25 has contracted Covid from a patient in our ED. And we see patients with Covid every day, and pretty much every shift. 

 

These guys will have been tested up and down, and quarantined for 2 weeks. The coaches also. The players will still, undoubtedly wear masks in any sort of loose, socially distant gatherings. As soon as Sweden declares heard immunity I'd book a trip there. Stockholm is a beautiful city, and Sweden will be one of the safest places to be. The NHL version of this thing will be also one of the safest places you can be. These guys will be far safer than the average citizen, even those in the lockdown going to Costco and Harris Teeter etc. The real risk here is almost entirely public relations. One guy gets it, and does fine and the critics will jump out in social media. NHL might look bad. 

 

The players chose to do this. They had the power to shut it down. The majority are rich enough to vote no and take the financial hit. They looked at the risks (minute) and decided to play. Money? Sure. People do a lot of much riskier things for money though. But also they want to play. They are hockey players. They play hockey. It's what they do.  

 

I can't wait for some hockey. Those who oppose can protest vote with their eyeballs and not watch. Is anyone going to do that?

 

rem, at one point it sounded like your ED was like a ghost town (I started to go with home Florida Panthers game, but decided to be nice, lol).  What's your situation look like now?

 

The NC Dashboard lists ICU Beds as 83% full, Inpatient Hospital Beds as 74% full, and lots of ventilators available (only 23% of supply used).  Do those statewide numbers sound right to you, and how do they compare to "normal" times?

 

On Sweden's herd immunity; most recent news I'm hearing is that the antibody testing is showing a much lower positive rate than what they anticipated by this point (I believe less than 10% vs. around 30%?).  Who knows what to believe from news reports, but if accurate that could be an indication of a tougher time reaching herd immunity than they had hoped. But it seems like it also might be an indication that voluntary safety measures undertaken by the Swedish population are having an effect in limiting spread of the virus.  It will be interesting to follow developments over there. 

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2 minutes ago, cc said:

 

So they list 587 cases hospitalized.  Does this mean the entire state only has about 700 icu beds?   Maybe this is correct. Idk Or perhaps some of these icu beds are not vivid related.?   Bottom line. Lots of stats low on facts.

 

That's why I asked rem, he probably has a much better idea than the rest of us, except maybe kajun. 

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Hello everyone, I just got through 10 pages.  Great discussion.  I'm no expert on Covid-19, but I do have direct expertise in zoonotics, being a professional wildlife biologist that regularly responds to such things, and who fully understand a virus, and the combination of proteins that give most their pathogenic nature, at least in birds, particularly waterfowl and other waterbirds, which is my area of responsibility for state game and fish.

 

In fact, I've taken oropharyngeal and cloacal swabs from over 25,000 wild ducks over seven years at different times in my career, in response to the concerns of transmission to humans from mostly the highly-pathogenic subtypes of H5 and H7 Influneza A.

 

The idea of a wet market, in today's society, blows my mind.  Seriously, civet cats and bats, both of which are known to carry SARS type viruses?  People destroy wildlife habitat, bring humans closer to wildlife, and it's then an incubation chamber for zoonotic transmission.

 

This is the real threat, and I expect pandemics to be more the norm than the occasional.  Just offering a view from a different professional perspective. 

 

I miss hockey.

 

Just Win!

 

Coastal

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5 hours ago, remkin said:

This is not having free style wrestling among untested patients in a nursing home with other resident crowd around the ring. It's like, the opposite of that.

At this point, that sounds entertaining

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1 hour ago, coastal_caniac said:

Hello everyone, I just got through 10 pages.  Great discussion.  I'm no expert on Covid-19, but I do have direct expertise in zoonotics, being a professional wildlife biologist that regularly responds to such things, and who fully understand a virus, and the combination of proteins that give most their pathogenic nature, at least in birds, particularly waterfowl and other waterbirds, which is my area of responsibility for state game and fish.

 

In fact, I've taken oropharyngeal and cloacal swabs from over 25,000 wild ducks over seven years at different times in my career, in response to the concerns of transmission to humans from mostly the highly-pathogenic subtypes of H5 and H7 Influneza A.

 

The idea of a wet market, in today's society, blows my mind.  Seriously, civet cats and bats, both of which are known to carry SARS type viruses?  People destroy wildlife habitat, bring humans closer to wildlife, and it's then an incubation chamber for zoonotic transmission.

 

This is the real threat, and I expect pandemics to be more the norm than the occasional.  Just offering a view from a different professional perspective. 

 

I miss hockey.

 

Just Win!

 

Coastal

 

I've got a picture of coastal at work!  :grin:

 

coastal covid.jpg

Edited by LakeLivin

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4 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

 

rem, at one point it sounded like your ED was like a ghost town (I started to go with home Florida Panthers game, but decided to be nice, lol).  What's your situation look lik

I get most of my info from my buddy who works several ED's it's gone from ghost town here in Ohio back to business as usual and then some with the state reopening. Shifts were slashed to save hospitals money and as a result he's been the only doctor on duty several times in the past few weeks. He had a 30:1 patient ratio 2 nights ago, we asked him if they were going to start upping the staffing but he had no idea. He also said it had nothing to do with COVID, but with confidence rising that things are ok the folks who used to goto the ED for bologna reasons have come back as well as the people who actually need help.

 

Rem might appreciate/understand this, he had a critical patient needing care immediately and the lead nurse asked him in the hallway if he could go see an employee with back pain. A statue should be erected in his backyard for not going to jail.

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7 hours ago, legend-1 said:

, but with confidence rising that things are ok the folks who used to goto the ED for bologna reasons have come back as well as the people who actually need help.

 

 

I get all my lunch meat from the emergency room too.  :)

 

Seriously, solve that bologna problem, and we'd give our health professionals ability to breath, and expand our care capacity. I just can't believe how people go to the ER for everything a PCP can handle.   I have a first cousin removed who does this.  She literally SCHEDULES (on HER schedule) trips to the ER for her family.  What The Hell!

Edited by wxray1

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18 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

 

rem, at one point it sounded like your ED was like a ghost town (I started to go with home Florida Panthers game, but decided to be nice, lol).  What's your situation look like now?

 

The NC Dashboard lists ICU Beds as 83% full, Inpatient Hospital Beds as 74% full, and lots of ventilators available (only 23% of supply used).  Do those statewide numbers sound right to you, and how do they compare to "normal" times?

 

On Sweden's herd immunity; most recent news I'm hearing is that the antibody testing is showing a much lower positive rate than what they anticipated by this point (I believe less than 10% vs. around 30%?).  Who knows what to believe from news reports, but if accurate that could be an indication of a tougher time reaching herd immunity than they had hoped. But it seems like it also might be an indication that voluntary safety measures undertaken by the Swedish population are having an effect in limiting spread of the virus.  It will be interesting to follow developments over there. 

What follows is a long post, covering a lot of things from an ED perspective:

 

Lake (and others), update on our ED situation. I have some interactions with other regional ICU's only when I need to transfer patients, so it's not robust. I can say that I have not been declined a transfer to another hospital based on bed space recently. 

 

Our hospital administration switched gears big time. For all of those who are on the keep it locked down side, they are not winning with our hospital administration. (And we are part of the borg of a bigger institution who leans politically hard to the side that likes the lockdowns, I guess only until it affects business). 

 

The biggest thing they did was unilaterally decide to jettison our outside tent assessment area. IMO they view that tent as a visual sign that these were different times, and best not to come to the ED for minor stuff. And it did do that. It also kept the vast majority of Covid outside. Now all covid patients will come inside, sit in rooms coughing (they never keep their masks on) into that room for nurses and providers. Hey there is still Covid out there. Why did they do this? Money. People want to decry healthy young hockey players for considering playing in a covid sterile environment for money? How about removing a protection for the "front line heroes" for money? 

 

Look, I get it, money actually matters. The hugely ironic fact that the very front line heroes that they make lots of touching ads about, are losing jobs, and taking massive pay cuts while facing this virus head on, is, well ironic. 

 

So, here's another nugget. The hospital laid off about 30% of ED nurses due to low volume with Covid. But after dropping the tent, they are not replacing those nurses. So we cannot operate at full capacity. Thus all of those walking well patients are now congregating in the waiting room and waiting hours in the ED, then being brought back and waiting in rooms. So, both for providers and patients, ironically (as always) this is probably THE most risky time to come to the ED. When we saw you outside in the tent, not only was our risk lower, but the patients were not exposed to each other either. That's all done now. 

 

I'm in favor of opening the economy up. It has to happen. But it is absolutely reasonable to expect Covid cases to bump or at least be flat during this time. Meaning at first just as much demand for the tent. We asked for the tent to stay. We "heroes" were denied. 

 

In terms of the administration's goal: normalcy (read volume, read money), dropping the tent has had an effect, but no where near full-on yet. We are seeing more patients in the ED, but they're mostly the ones we were seeing in the tent. The tent was hugely efficient.

 

Over the years, the layers of inefficient (putting it nicely) work, layered on by the bureaucracy, that goes into treating an ED patient is immense. I could write pages on it (yes I know you know I can write pages, but I'm also forced to write pages on patient's minor care). Basically the amount of effort from nurses, registration and doctors that goes into the actual needed medical care has dropped to about 20% of the total work done. The other 80% is required for bureaucratic and medical legal work, as well as measures that went in for documentation that have built up over time, especially during the last national administration. The tent did a way with a lot of that, and for a precious few moments we were transitioned into doing only what medically mattered. Thus the patients that went through the tent received purer, focused medical care with far less unneeded documentation, and even less superfluous exam and testing. We moved people through that tent on purely medical grounds and it was invigorating for providers (that part of it anyways). When a patient comes through the regular ER process, they end up contacting a lot of people. It takes a village to get one patient through the main ED. In the tent 4 people could run the whole thing: Provider, Nurse, Registration, CNA. 

 

But alas, that medical efficiency lowers the bill. Less testing. Less workup. Less exam. Less documentation of all of that. Less money. Not only was the tent scaring people away (lowering volume), but it was not bringing in anywhere near as much $ per patient. Also, they were using some OR nurses in the tent, who needed to get back to the O.R. As the hospital has been reeling financially, the tent had to go. Plus all other hospitals in the borg had dropped their tents, so ours had to go too.

 

Anyway, without the tent-efficiency our flow is back to it's usual slog PLUS that compounded by few nurses and thus fewer available beds. This makes things back up and feel busy as heck when, in fact our total volume is not back to anywhere near normal. We in the ED who didn't work the tents, are seeing the tent volume back, but some of that is because we just weren't seeing it in the tent. So this is at present the worst of all worlds. Volume (and thus pay) are still low, but the back up feels just as busy, and the risk of contracting Covid for providers is higher than it was. 

 

My last two night shifts sucked royally. But it was because of the tent being gone and fewer nurses far more than increased volume. During Covid, the night doc who comes in at 11PM would walk into about 5 total patients waiting. Friday I walked into 28 people waiting. That is bad even pre covid. So volume must be spiking right? Wrong. The totals for the day, while up a bit, were still way down from normal. It was just that having 30% less nurses and rooms, and no tent efficiency left those people waiting up to 5 hours for nearly the same volume. The next night was the same.

 

So, volume is ticking up, but with a long ways to go, but the 'feel' of volume has spiked for us due to inefficiency, and loss of support staff. Oh, and there's still plenty of covid around. 

 

In terms of the expert predictions for our hospital? 60 intubated ICU covid patients? Um. How about 1-2? I've railed on this already, but if this doesn't teach people that experts are human and cary their own biases, then I'm not sure anything will. I may just be an ED doc, but I was far more right than them somehow. I guess that just gets thrown into the bin and we still listen to those same experts next time. Administrators love experts. This is because they don't have any first hand knowledge themselves. They're not dumb people, they just trust experts to a fault. Our ED has had at least 5 very expensive expert groups come in and assess things just in the last few years. They've made a lot of money and changed almost nothing in a material way. In a couple of cases where they apparently came to the "wrong" conclusions, the administration just tried another expert. The latest one is getting very fat indeed. They speak in admin lingo and tout their expertness. It is soothing to administrators. But mostly it gives them backing to counter what the actual docs on the ground tell them if it doesn't agree with their notions, which....come from the experts, who have a self sustaining circle in that all of the metrics and current trendy things to do become the "standard" because those same experts declare them so. 

 

Am I smarter than them? Not at the final level. They have figured out how to use this to get paid at the hospital budget level (which is a nice level) and I'm still on the ground seeing patients. So who's really smarter? I guess it depends on how you look at it, but many would say they are.

 

So at present our hospital has moved the few sick covid patients we have OUT of the special ICU in the pre and post op areas to the regular ICU. This is so we can start getting OR's back to operations. But it is also an indicator that we are not going to be overrun at least according to our hospital.

 

Where is this going? I do think it's going towards business as usual. The volumes are starting back up, and as with everything it will take some time for them to get back to normal. As the tent is down and volume goes back up with Covid still back out there, our personal risk will be what spikes, not IMO, covid cases. But Covid is still out there, and now it will be harder to tell which patient in the ED has it. (It's hard even with the sick ones). 

 

I've said it on here for a long time, even when the experts were predicting mass overwhelming of our system:  We will not be overrun. As such society must reopen. But as it does, new cases might go up a tick, or at least continue for a good while. While that happens I wish we had our tent at least until we see what happens. But what I want is not very relevant. I just load the trucks.

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12 hours ago, legend-1 said:

I get most of my info from my buddy who works several ED's it's gone from ghost town here in Ohio back to business as usual and then some with the state reopening. Shifts were slashed to save hospitals money and as a result he's been the only doctor on duty several times in the past few weeks. He had a 30:1 patient ratio 2 nights ago, we asked him if they were going to start upping the staffing but he had no idea. He also said it had nothing to do with COVID, but with confidence rising that things are ok the folks who used to goto the ED for bologna reasons have come back as well as the people who actually need help.

 

Rem might appreciate/understand this, he had a critical patient needing care immediately and the lead nurse asked him in the hallway if he could go see an employee with back pain. A statue should be erected in his backyard for not going to jail.

I must confess that I'm in the town I'm in because our group is independently owned, by us.  I wanted to be an owner, which is increasingly rare in ED medicine. The relationship our group has had with the hospital had been very stable for 30 plus years. The hospital itself was also independent with it's own local board, but also a CEO and admin team that answered only to the local board. This all changed when a decision was made to become part of a larger hospital group and the effect on us has been slowly changing in a negative way. I don't want to get more into it than that, except to say this: the hospital, up to now, could not lay off ED physicians or PA's (who work directly for us). This is part of why I came to this town rather than, well, a better one. 

 

Our group makes what we bill, so we are seeing a big drop in pay. But at least no one is being furloughed. So there is that. At least for now....

 

But nursing is run and owned entirely by the hospital, and they have been cut big time. This has a similar effect on our daily lives as patients back up waiting for rooms (that were being run through our now defunct tent). 

 

I get the thing about a nurse asking to get "connected" patient ahead of the line. It happens. The key would be that nurse's reaction when the doc told her he had to go see the sick patient first. If that nurse persisted....then the jail thing would apply. 

 

As I mentioned in my manifesto up there, the tent was a sign that things were scary. It's coming down in the face of opening things up will lead to more volume. How our administration reacts to this volume is going to be key. And probably very stressful for several reasons. In many ways it could be just as problematic as the reaction to the pandemic as new volume rushes into a system not ready for it with less staff but no tent. 

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18 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

The NC Dashboard lists ICU Beds as 83% full, Inpatient Hospital Beds as 74% full, and lots of ventilators available (only 23% of supply used).  Do those statewide numbers sound right to you, and how do they compare to "normal" times?

 

On Sweden's herd immunity; most recent news I'm hearing is that the antibody testing is showing a much lower positive rate than what they anticipated by this point (I believe less than 10% vs. around 30%?).  Who knows what to believe from news reports, but if accurate that could be an indication of a tougher time reaching herd immunity than they had hoped. But it seems like it also might be an indication that voluntary safety measures undertaken by the Swedish population are having an effect in limiting spread of the virus.  It will be interesting to follow developments over there. 

There is no question that the curve never got close to overwhelming the system and it won't. 83% full on ICU beds seems pretty close to pre covid normal to me, but I don't follow those stats normally. Anyways, there's plenty of hospital beds and ventilators for a peak far far higher than anything we will now see. And despite the shifting of the goal posts, that WAS the reason for lockdowns. It no longer applies. 

 

On herd immunity, I have had trouble getting a handle on that. Which is telling since outside of flattening the curve it's kind of the most important concept (short of a cure). I've seen wildly different numbers on: 1. What percentage of exposed patients get us there: 30-80% has been quoted. 2. How close we or anyone else is to whatever percentage we need. 

 

The idea that people will get this twice seems patently unlikely. It would be a massive story and yet I'm not aware of any proven case. No, despite the WHO guy framing it as immunity hasn't been proven, in this case no clear cut evidence of significant re infection is the key fact. So at least there's that.

 

I tend to fall back on some common sense, face valid, observations and questions, since I'm not a super specialized academic expert in corona virus pandemics. Here's one such question. If some form of herd immunity were not in effect, how are new cases going down in the face of more testing? I guess the easy answer would be that our lockdowns have worked. But if so, then we should not just see an uptick with re opening, we should see a massive surge into the huge portion of the population still unexposed.

 

As cases went up, that meant more people to give it to more other people. It would seem that things should just keep peaking until the herd immunity starts to slow the spread. Thus, as new cases are dropping with no cure, there are only two possibilities: there is a level of herd immunity kicking in, or the lockdowns worked mightily on the viral spread. 

 

Thing is, 8 states never locked down. Why are they not overwhelmed by now? Why is Sweden not overwhelmed? 

 

Ultimately the next few weeks will help answer this as states open and as more antibody testing gives a better picture.

 

On Sweden reaching herd immunity, all I've been able to do is quote Swedish officials, so I don't really know. But I have listened to a few Swedish doctors responding to academic ED docs I know. They do point out that Sweden is mostly rural, but Stockholm did get the brunt of their Covid rush. Swedes are naturally "social distancy" people, which may have helped. Still, if Sweden has hit 10% and is such a rural place, maybe it does suggest we can get there. But they bear watching as their government officials have been claiming they were about there. (And Swedes trust their government). 

 

The thing is, that it's herd immunity or the effects of a never ending virus short of a cure. The cure is hyped both ways. The history is that vaccines take 2-4 years and no coronavirus vaccine exists for any coronavirus. The hope is that new tech and a world wide push will change that. No one knows for sure, but the vaccine people are saying that December would be the soonest, and even then, that would be a massive breakthrough, and not a great bet. 

 

I don't know if the vaccine will come in December, a touch sooner, or never, but I do know that further lockdowns won't stand. I get the fear about the virus, heck I'm right there. But as the true overall risk becomes clearer to the population being hit by a massive spike in unemployment, the pushback from citizens will be overwhelming if things don't keep opening up, of course, IMO. 

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7 hours ago, remkin said:

. . .

 

Thing is, 8 states never locked down. Why are they not overwhelmed by now? Why is Sweden not overwhelmed? 

 

. . .

 

I don't know if the vaccine will come in December, a touch sooner, or never, but I do know that further lockdowns won't stand. I get the fear about the virus, heck I'm right there. But as the true overall risk becomes clearer to the population being hit by a massive spike in unemployment, the pushback from citizens will be overwhelming if things don't keep opening up, of course, IMO. 

 

I've read that even though Sweden didn't lock down, many of it's residents still practiced voluntary social distancing.  I suspect that also applies to US States that didn't lock down.  Could it be that voluntary measures have had a fair measure of success?  That would make me feel better about getting through this thing until there's a treatment or vaccine.

 

What really bothers me about the whole debate is that many seem to have adopted an all or nothing stance. Clearly the country can't stay locked down indefinitely. But there seems to be a contingent, quite vocal in some places (even if it may still be a minority), that seems intent on opening up full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes, damn the consequences (not implying that's you rem). Italy happened. NYC happened. Group homes with at risk populations have been (and I believe still are being) ravaged. I just wish that a fraction of the energy that's going towards the drive to open up the country would be directed towards efforts to open up the country safely. Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't hear nearly as much as I'd like about HOW we open back up in a way that mitigates the risks from covid-19 going forward.  

 

Here's one small example: is it possible that masks really do have a significant impact on cutting down transmission among the general public? If so, why aren't there inexpensive face masks available on the shelves of every WalMart, Food Lion, and Dollar Store throughout the country?  Same with hand sanitizer? And why aren't the airwaves crammed with public service messages about what the general public should be doing as it comes out of lockdown?  Hey, we could have used some of the money we spent in stocking up on our supply of hydroxychloroquine. :wacko:  

Edited by LakeLivin
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14 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

What really bothers me about the whole debate is that many seem to have adopted an all or nothing stance.

 

When political parties refuse to accept even a kernel of good in the other party, or their party's proposals, and vote 100% in lockstep, that attitude will seep into society as a whole.  And not only will the parties not accept a kernel of good, they insist on denigrating everyone and everything on the other side, to the point of damning them to hell.

 

And so we are where we are.  Everything has to be treated 100%.  No room for the middle.  Just following our "leaders" after all.

Edited by wxray1

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On 5/23/2020 at 11:20 AM, OBXer said:

We can and will close this tread

Promises, promises. Never should have gone up in the first place.

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20 hours ago, remkin said:

but if this doesn't teach people that experts are human and cary their own biases, then I'm not sure anything will

It's stunning that a doctor would accuse epidemiologists of "bias" because they did their job too well, i.e. sounded alarms loudly in the face of a pandemic in order to stop the spread and save lives, rather than under-reacting and losing them.

 

If I didn't know better, rem, I'd say you were disappointed at not having more patients.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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15 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

I just wish that a fraction of the energy that's going towards the drive to open up the country would be directed towards efforts to open up the country safely.

This.

 

The President is insisting that our Governor state now whether his (the President's) party can have their convention in Charlotte. Is he doing it because he really needs to know? No. He's doing it to create political division. He's doing it at a time when cases are still on the rise in this state, and when that city has the most by far.

 

He's doing it to score political points with his base, the same reason he does everything. Others may disagree, or complain that I'm "being political." I really don't care. I'm not going to ignore that our President is trying to drive public health decisions simply because he wants to win an election, any more than I've ignored that Cooper is moving too quickly in reopening (something I have stated here as well).

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I'm one of the ones who think the NHL season and playoffs should be canceled. The energy should be placed into trying to find a way to play next season. What I think doesn't matter as it appears we are going to try to finish a CUP tournament of some sort. I will watch if we do play.

 

Perhaps one good that could come out of a resumption of play is that it could serve as a test on how to open up business, especially large factory type business.It appears we will as a league take extreme testing and health check measures to keep players safe.  I do wonder what happens if a player does test positive what the reaction will be. Does the team with an infected player shut down, does the team forfeit, is the tournament postponed or canceled.

 

Other sports are opening around the world and the NHL appears it will too.

 

 

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3 hours ago, wxray1 said:

 

When political parties refuse to accept even a kernel of good in the other party, or their party's proposals, and vote 100% in lockstep, that attitude will seep into society as a whole.  And not only will the parties not accept a kernel of good, they insist on denigrating everyone and everything on the other side, to the point of damning them to hell.

 

And so we are where we are.  Everything has to be treated 100%.  No room for the middle.  Just following our "leaders" after all.

 

I hear ya.  For over a decade I've been of the opinion that hyper partisanship is one of the biggest challenges our country is facing.  But we've gotten to the point where the concept of "alternative facts" isn't a bit from a stand up comedy routine.  I wish I knew how we get past this, but I have no idea.

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Saying that everyone is human and has bias is stunning? Yikes. I'd say not agreeing with that is, telling.  

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On 5/25/2020 at 12:07 PM, remkin said:

Administrators love experts

rem, I'm reminded of the saying, as I'm sure you are, "Experts are those from somewhere else".

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7 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

I wish I knew how we get past this, but I have no idea.

Not sure. Maybe legalize weed?  Or take Cbd gummies.

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On 5/24/2020 at 8:49 AM, wxray1 said:

One final thing about this.  We obviously all see the risk differently.  I'm doing my best to avoid this thing like crazy.  But as I mentioned on the other thread, I went down east last week to help out on some worthy hurricane recovery projects.  The general attitude down there among people of all socio-economic classes was completely different than in Raleigh.  Masks were rare, rules were flaunted, and I felt uneasy a few times.  This is probably because the counties we worked in have reported numbers under 100.  But who knows what the silent count is?  I was somewhat shocked by the overall difference in attitude. 

I live down here and you're right. It's scary. People everywhere with no masks, refusing (or too stupid) to acknowledge that masks are worn for the protection of others as much as themselves.

 

As a society, we have totally lost concern for others' well being, in favor of preserving the "freedom to spit on others." And without a concern for the safety of others, societies collapse.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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9 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

I wish I knew how we get past this, but I have no idea.

We get past it by returning to common cause. See the linked piece in the next post up. 

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33 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I live down here and you're right. It's scary. People everywhere with no masks, refusing (or too stupid) to acknowledge that masks are worn for the protection of others as much as themselves.

 

As a society, we have totally lost concern for others' well being, in favor of preserving the "freedom to spit on others." And without a concern for the safety of others, societies collapse.

 

I don't know.  Part of me Acknowledges that this virus is real and deadly.  The other part of me realizes this virus has a 2% fatality rate and has the potential to crash a booming US economy in an election year and coming out of a trade war with  China and low and behold this *edit* comes from China.

 

It's a very peculiar and unfortunate chain of events.  Given the circumstances.  With all that being said I wear a mask and so does my wife and child.  But I am upset due to.my wife being a small business owner that currently cannot operate so don't anyone dare tell me that I am not feeling the pain here.

Edited by bluedevil58
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We try to support local business when we go on mission.  So we go to this famous local grill, and none of the food prep people were wearing masks, and worse yet, they had customers sitting at the bar which overlooks the food prep area.   The owner says, "We can't seat you at a booth, but you are welcome to sit at the bar."  By bar, I don't mean alcohol, I mean a counter that overlooks the grill.  You sit right there, watching stuff being made.

 

What?  This is before phase II also.  I guess it was a rule made in his own mind.

 

I'm not even talking COVID here.  This bar should be shut, you shouldn't have people overlooking food prep and talking.  But, hey, that's the way it was built in '49 and they ain't changing nothing.

 

Next trip, I will skip this place and go to the local BBQ which had really a really good setup in comparison.

 

Once again it is balance and a middle way.  There is mask shaming for people outdoors in open areas.  That's gone too far.  Then you have this guy who apparently thinks food prep people and their close customers are exempt from the virus and any health requirements.  That's gone too far.

Edited by wxray1
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The overall mortality rate of this is still in question, but the vast majority of people studying this have it under 1% now, and some way under 1%. It all depends on how many are missing from the denominator, and whether one is talking about the % of symptomatic patients or all patients that had enough exposure to make antibodies. Either way there are vast numbers of people missing from the denominator who were never tested, both ones that had symptoms and those who did not. But even the symptomatic mortality rate is under 1%. 

 

By now we all know who the high risk people are. And none approaches the risk of nursing home patients, who continue to have outbreaks. The most dramatic way to decrease the mortality of this disease short of a cure/treatment is stopping the spread to nursing homes. There is a lot of room for improvement here still.

 

The risk of catching Covid from food handled by a possible covid positive cook is thought to be very low, but IMO they should be wearing masks until it's proven to be near zero, or proven that the masks don't matter. Do the rules for this phase require it? It would seem that they should. 

 

Mask outside as a requirement is overkill. Masks outside in any sort of congregating group do make sense. The 6 foot rule is arbitrary. Some places have a 3 foot rule. No one really knows, but one thing that's for sure is that if it's 6 feet indoors, it can be less outdoors. Might as well try to maintain 6 ft outdoors since there is no harm in it. 

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